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Military Blogger says Let Gays Serve Openly in Armed Forces

Posted by GayPatriotWest at 2:11 am - November 30, 2005.
Filed under: Gays In Military,War On Terror

Earlier this year, when I asked a lawyer friend of mine to comment on a post I had written on the military’s Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell Policy (DADT), he called the policy one of the great injustices and follies of our time.

It’s not only this gay attorney who finds fault with this preposterous policy. Uncle Jimbo, a straight military guy whose opposition to DADT I’ve cited in the past, has written another piece reaffirming his “belief that the ban on gays serving openly in the military is wrong” and did so while guest blogging on Blackfive, the winner of the Wizbang Award for Best Military Blog last year and a respected blog frequently linked by conservative bloggers.

The more pro-military conservative guys like Uncle Jimbo speak out against the ban, the better we can make the case that ending this injustice would not be (as some critics have said) just a social experiment, but would also serve the national security interest of our nation. Uncle Jimbo is pleased to observe that:

Acceptance of gays has given way the irrelevance of sexual orientation for most people. Gay troops now serve without disruption and with distinction, in many cases maintaining only the flimsiest of facades, this is not going to change if those who wish it no longer have to pretend.

At at a time when our military needs to best, bravest and most dedicated young men and women to win the war on terror, it’s absurd to arbitrarily prevent so many citizens from serving openly.

Uncle Jimbo’s post shows that many military heroes welcome gay people into their ranks. Let’s hope that more military folk speak out as he has done. So, please take a moment and read the whole thing, then follow Uncle Jimbo’s advice and contact your Congressman or Senator and ask them to repeal this Clinton-era policy.

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24 Comments

  1. It should be the same as women in the military. As long as there aren’t special considerations made, why not?

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — November 30, 2005 @ 5:12 am - November 30, 2005

  2. I completely agree with Uncle Jimbo. As long as a soldier doesn’t bring his sexual preferences to work with him, no one is going to care. I served with a guy in the 82nd Airborne Division who was known to be gay (he talked to all the female soldiers about it) but wasn’t scorned. He was quiet and respectful, so no one messed with him. Since everyone knew he was gay, he would purposely take showers by himself on the times we were required to utilize communal facilities.

    (Note: That is going to an argument amongst some – is it proper for a gay man to take showers with straight men? Will he derive some form of sexual gratification from looking at others? If that argument is not valid, then why can’t men take showers with women? Silly, I know, but it will come up in the conversation about rescinding the DADT baloney, even though closet-gays are showering with straight guys now anyway.)

    I think most straight men will accept that his brother is gay, as long as he feels the man is doing good things on the job. The only caveat to that would be that overly effeminate men would be ridiculed in most circles. I think that kind of demeanor clashes with the “warrior” culture regardless of sexual preference though.

    Comment by TBone — November 30, 2005 @ 6:37 am - November 30, 2005

  3. The shower thing still cracks me up. Someone should talk to the straight guy on my 99% gay swim team who showers with us after the meets and doesn’t seem to break out into a panic that someone is going to get “sexual gratification” from glancing at his naked body (so that’s what a naked man looks like!). I’m ex-Navy btw and I used communal showers all through bootcamp without incident.

    I guess there are people out there with the self-control of a hyperglandular animal, but they don’t belong in the military. I’m fascinated with this paranoid fantasy that seems to be playing in the heads of some straight guys. Civilized people can manage just fine as long as they respect space bubbles.

    Comment by Dale in L.A. — November 30, 2005 @ 12:41 pm - November 30, 2005

  4. I too am ex-Navy and agree that DADT is a failed policy that should be scrapped. With military recruitment becoming more of a challenge, it is idiotic to ban openly gay patriots from serving in this time of great need.

    I do not believe that homosexuals are not a threat to straight men in communal shower situations, but if some sort of “accomodation” is required to placate objections, then I see no problem with that.

    There are many gay men and women who could make significant contributions in the GWOT if only they could serve proudly–something they cannot do right now with DADT.

    I have also contacted my Representative, two Senators and the White House with my views.

    Comment by Scott — November 30, 2005 @ 6:41 pm - November 30, 2005

  5. Good post, Dan. This is what needs to be done to change this policy, is cultivate people like Jimbo to speak up about it. Duncan Hunter is a huge obstacle to repealing this policy – but he’d listen to someone like Jimbo alot more than he’d listen to a Log Cabin or SLDN person.

    I wonder if SLDN is working the mil blogs at all with their campaign to repeal the ban?

    Comment by Lloydletta — November 30, 2005 @ 6:45 pm - November 30, 2005

  6. The whole shower thing is overblown. What about the gay guy who works out at a very straight gym? (Been there, done that.) I agree with the one who commented about the hypergladularism – I also think that maybe our society is just way oversexed.

    I can guarantee you that men who risk their lives for their country could care less who was in a shower or foxhole with them as long as they did their job and could be counted on. I would think that sex would be the last thing on their minds if they were getting flak from a roadside bomb.

    Regards,
    Peter Hughes

    Comment by Peter Hughes — November 30, 2005 @ 10:44 pm - November 30, 2005

  7. #2
    Will he derive some form of sexual gratification from looking at others?

    If I see a hot guy in a public shower I do take note of it. I have eyes. Is that sexual gratification?

    #3
    Someone should talk to the straight guy on my 99% gay swim team who showers with us

    I’d doubt the sexuality of a “straight” guy on a 99% gay swim team. BTW, how many people are on this team and why are so many gay?

    #6
    What about the gay guy who works out at a very straight gym?

    Not really a good comparison to military life.

    Comment by John — November 30, 2005 @ 11:37 pm - November 30, 2005

  8. Why do I always think about Starship Troopers whenever the DADT/communal shower discussion comes up?

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — November 30, 2005 @ 11:45 pm - November 30, 2005

  9. As the late Senator Barry Goldwater, certainly pro-military, said: “If they can shoot straight, what’s the problem?”

    I apologize for not knowing much about what the Army, Marine and Navy are doing. But I do know that new Air Force dormitories provide a great deal of privacy for airmen. Since things like communal showers wouldn’t generally be an issue in the Air Force, perhaps the Air Force could be the service to experiment with equality in recruitment and enlistment. Of course, we’ll first need a congress and president committed to equality.

    Comment by Jack Allen — December 1, 2005 @ 12:03 am - December 1, 2005

  10. this was posted on Blackfives board in regard to the discussion there. Roach was the biggest opponent of gays in the military and brought out the full arsenal.
    Roach, I’d like to first address your many post on the subject. So much of your argument has been based on personal feelings as well as cultural and religious reasons, these deserve a response. First of all I am gay, I’m an army brat, and my best friend in high school was a Marine that served in Desert Storm. Personally I wasn’t sure I was gay until I was in my mid-20’s well after the time I applied for WestPoint, but chickened out at the last minute.
    -First of all religion, it’s a weak excuse since the military is composed of a variety of religions and your are forced to tolerate them all including atheism, Wicca, Hinduism, even Islam. Do you judge each of their practioners by your creeds in the military, or by their actions? It is not a Christian organization any way’s modern Christianity is passive to the point of “turn the other cheek” remember? Therefore a military member that seeks solace in Christianity would most likely find that the bible preaches against many of their actions. If you want a religion that promotes war turn to Islam.
    -Second your argument that you wouldn’t be able to control your disgust is a sign of personal weakness not military discipline. Gays are already in the military, if they knew when they enlisted is their issue, as is if they enlisted because of it and wanted to prove themselves in the world of men . These men and teens want little more than acceptance, discipline, and guidance. They either know or will learn that the difference between straight and gay is who you can bed, not who you could bed. Should the rest of their company have to put up with them? Why not? If they can do their job and keep their nose clean they are no better or worse than the next soldier. Do you have to shower with them, yes, they are not allowed to fraternize with anyone there and assuming that they can’t control themselves puts you on the same footing as the Muslims that keep their wives covered from head to foot because “men will be enflamed with passion” if they see the slightest bit of skin. Can’t you control yourself from raping every woman in a bathing suit? Don’t you expect your fellow American to resist raping your woman if she is in a bathing suit? These are common sense things that you allow yourself so that you can make jokes , ridicule, and besmirch your fellow Americans. If gays are in the military doing their jobs right now what makes you think that if you remove the Inquisition that you created to hunt them, that they will suddenly put on lace and try to have sex with everyone?
    I’m 30 I have had straight room mates since I was 21, I have never once thought that it would be okay to proposition any of them, because they’re room mates because I needed to share expenses not because I was trying to bed them.
    The new voluntary military is a grand creation, it is made up by people willing to serve their country while enduring pointless bureaucracy, over bearing CO’s, paperwork that can kill you and equipment that is never new enough or in great enough supply. They endure countless petty indignities yet they typically bear them all with pride and discipline. That gays are willing to endure all this to protect their country as well as an inquisition is a testament to how much it means to them. That you denigrate them and say they have no place in your military is fool hardy. What else is our nation made of? The cast offs the disenfranchised, the poor, the unwanted. Bring them together show them what the enemy will do to them if they catch them, show them the hangings, and the stonings, show them this and you will have a warrior that has something to fight for. And for this driven fighting machine all you have to do is put up with the fact that he won’t sleep with your wife? Seems like a fair bargain after the many stories of the “faithful military wives” I’ve been raised on.
    Accept that gays and lesbians are equal to you in ability and judge them on their merits not on your religious preconceptions. You owe them that in the spirit of the country and flag you fight under.

    Comment by Tim — December 1, 2005 @ 3:44 pm - December 1, 2005

  11. Can’t you control yourself from raping every woman in a bathing suit? Don’t you expect your fellow American to resist raping your woman if she is in a bathing suit?

    I’ve always found this an interesting argument — mainly because it’s only used for arguing against antigay discrimination. In theory, then, we can put male and female soldiers together in the same barracks. Why the double standard for women?

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — December 1, 2005 @ 4:00 pm - December 1, 2005

  12. I don’t have a double standard against it at all. I’m sorry if you thought that was what I meant. What I said was that civil responsibilty was already being displayed, throughout the country why suddenly this faith that it would dissolve?

    Comment by Tim — December 1, 2005 @ 8:31 pm - December 1, 2005

  13. second post, I highly reccomend that everyone read and interject your opinions on this. Either as a civilian citizen or as an ex military person. The more views the better.

    Rick, Senorlechero, We have reached the point of discussion that has few logical paths. The majority of civilians believe that gays have the right to not be discriminated and rooted out of the military as long as they don’t affect cohesion. Several Military members have stated that they served with known gays and believed them to be fine members of the military. Others have had horrible experiences of rape, and misused authority in which gays or sexual predators have abused their fellow servicemen. I wish to address all these points and try to express what is so horrible about the status quo.
    To the military members that have had horrible experiences I must ask if they were universal or caused by troubled people. Do you really believe that all gays and lesbians share these attributes? That no problems exist in the straight community? Do you believe that by suppressing these events and these people that you are making the situation better or worse? As a gay male it is my belief that the suppression has caused many to over act out their preferences, that in fact the current climate in the US has caused the total demarcation of gay and straight in our country. Can you think of a time or country where the line has been so clean cut? That if you are gay you are totally gay and if you are straight you are totally straight? Is it not true that in many countries gays marry and have children (or at least their wives have children) and they keep their men on the side? Could your attitude have made the situation more stark for young troubled men and women? I ask these not as rhetorical questions but as sincere questions the constantly are asked among the gay community. Has suppression ever totally worked in any field or post? Did prohibition, or the strict guidelines that control the military’s code of conduct? In truth are these rules in your experience constantly tested and pushed?
    It is my belief that by forcing men and women to lie and suppress a basic part of their lives that everyone else is allowed to flaunt, nay rejoice in, you are creating adverse social conditions that foster negative conditions and that if dealt with openly would loose their fear factor. Two guys kissing are no more disturbing on the biological level than two women or man and a woman. Knowing that people have sex is no more disturbing than knowing that your parents have sex, But honestly are you driven to beat down or kill your parents or neighbors when they kiss? Does knowing that your bunkmate has a man waiting at home that could be cheating on him, or conversely may be sending him packages really alter your perspective of the universe? Biology is a case of averages not absolutes. No one has exactly the same makeup as the next person, but by understanding, tolerance, and experience you learn that despite our differences we are all human. Should we go back to the days when only blondes are acceptable, or blacks, or Asians? Such clear-cut allegiances have always fostered the worst in people and led to their destruction by more varied and genetically diverse groups. Case in point the Spartans. Despite their rigid genetic cleansing they bred and governed themselves into extinction by treating those different than themselves as inferiors. Can you say that you will be any more successful than them? Are gay men and women unable of controlling themselves? Spend more time with them and come to your own conclusions.
    Also to this group, once more, I will call attention to the fact that due to the problems in the past our fore Fathers left to care of the military, ultimately to civilians. Think on this and draw your own conclusions, was it wrong or does it serve a greater purpose by keeping the military as fluid as the population they serve.
    To those that believe it is fair that gays serve, we must also keep in mind the warnings and concerns of both the active and retired military people in this council. Many have had personal dealings and both positive and negative experiences with gays in the military, take their concerns seriously and remember that whatever we task our military with they are commanded to obey. Personally I think it is a travesty that men and women are despised regardless of the good that they have done this country simply because they are gay. They have sweated, cried, and bled when faced with the paradox of their situation. This is not right, this injustice that the straight world propagates will return in either cultural backlash or the creation of a society that continues to cause their citizens to lie in order to do what they believe is their duty in protecting this nation. We cannot spare the manpower to root them out and loose their knowledge. I have had enlisted men beg me to join as on officer because of the way I treat people and what I expect of the it’s CO’s. I have been sorely tempted to throw away the openness that I am only starting to appreciate in order to help them and do my part in helping the enlisted men endure and benefit from the military. But I decline because I cannot live under the threat of an inquisitional atmosphere and the fear that all my work will be undone with the slip of a pronoun. If they will not let me join, I cannot help them. But let people have the chance, I don’t believe that close quarters will do harm, in fact I believe that close quarters if anything would remove the differences that people believe are their. Gays would find that they are not so different and straights would find they are not in danger.
    I ask all of you who believe that gays can’t serve, either for the sake of unit cohesion, for fear of fraternization, for belief that it is morally wrong, to look at your lives and see if any belief you have had has ever been challenged and been shown as false? Gays are maturing as a subculture, society is making more of us and we want to prove that we are not useless that we have something to offer. If we cannot have children than let us defend yours, if we cannot be married than let us at least die for a cause that will live on. You take from us our humanity and say it was never ours; you take from us the dignity of monogamy and marriage and say that only straights can use the word and corrupt it with divorce, and adultery. Are you so pure that you can say that we your children are unequal to foreigners who have just learned our language and are fighting for their citizenship? You wound your fellow citizens and say that it is justified by tradition, even as you preach the overturning of autocratic traditions of bondage both throughout the world. You tell other cultures that you prize diversity and that it’s benefits are a greater culture and increased knowledge and freedom, but you tell your fellow citizens that they are best served by ignoring these lessons and returning to the shadows where so many of our parents have cast us. I don’t and will not ask for your pity, I will not bring to your attention the multitudes of gays that work beside you and make your food, design your cars, craft your laws and watch your children. But I will not consider you my countryman until you accept that I want to fight and serve my country and that I have more to loose than most should fanatical Islam sweep the world. Accept that I can control my sexual desires as well as any other and would never hurt someone or try to convince them they are gay. If you are afraid that gays can’t control themselves it is because you doubt your own ability to control your urges, not a weakness on my part.
    Don’t throw away willing hands, be pragmatic and accept that there are many that would work with you in the defense of this nation and her freedoms and grow stronger for it. The war is coming; don’t let infighting weaken our lines.

    Comment by Tim — December 1, 2005 @ 9:44 pm - December 1, 2005

  14. #10

    Therefore a military member that seeks solace in Christianity would most likely find that the bible preaches against many of their actions. If you want a religion that promotes war turn to Islam.

    That’s great. Push for gays in the military and slam religion at the same time.

    bible preaches against many of their actions.

    Really? I must have slept through church more often than I thought.

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — December 2, 2005 @ 1:05 am - December 2, 2005

  15. Look I was raised in a fundie church, i went to friggin Bible Trivia contests, no where does it say you should be anything other than a pacifist, thats just doctrine. I’m not slamming religion I’m just saying that if your stand is that it’s against your religious values did you bother to read the rest of them.

    Comment by Tim — December 2, 2005 @ 10:41 am - December 2, 2005

  16. Google “St. Augustine” and “just war”, Tim, and you may learn something.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — December 2, 2005 @ 12:18 pm - December 2, 2005

  17. This is simply a mind blowing creation.

    Comment by acne treatments — March 8, 2006 @ 10:29 am - March 8, 2006

  18. Declaration of Heaven on Earth!
    Chant this prayer & we will have heaven on earth:

    Dearest, greatest, holiest!
    Please give us all, the full heaven on earth!
    I thank you, & I worship you.

    For more information, please visit http://www.normism.org !

    Comment by picture of zoroastrianism — March 9, 2006 @ 11:09 pm - March 9, 2006

  19. Good day I found your blogg when doing a search for Special Forces used in military watches, not what I was after but hello anyway 🙂

    Comment by Luminox — March 13, 2006 @ 8:28 am - March 13, 2006

  20. Great commentary as usual. I usually lurk. I’ve also decided to voice my opinion via a new shirt/gear design. Stop by and over your opinions. I need them! The newest ones are the Gay Soldiers and Gay Christian designs.

    Comment by Redd Pepper — April 28, 2006 @ 2:35 pm - April 28, 2006

  21. Americans…

    This is America. Too fickle to demonstrate the ideals we promote. Are we seriously going to continue this into the decades to come? Why?

    Labels.
    Democrat. Republican.
    Radical. Conservative.
    Gay. Straight.

    Stupidity.

    When will the society accept the label of individual? When will we stop the unneccesary war? Yes, the war we are fighting within! The majority of Americans are somehow brainwashed or coaxed into the foolish, asinine mockery of “me vs. him”. Why are you a Democrat? Why are you a Republican? Why can’t everyone just be themselves, individuals, and stand behind their beliefs?

    I am sitting here reading retired veterans and other “esteemed” elders of my generation argue about the possible sexual grafitication of one man in the nude presence of another and how that possible admiration of the human form will effect the “straight” man’s rights. I am a 24 yr old American. I am not “gay”. I am not “straight”. I am not “bisexual”. I am not any “label” on the societal list of sexual orientation classification.

    I am human.

    That’s all. That’s all I ever wish to be. Listen, people should get a grip on reality. There is no need for the polar opposites of every aspect of life. I do not believe in the existence of “Democrats”, “Republicans”, “Radicals”, “Conservatives”, “Straights”, or “Gays”. I believe everyone is on some sort of a spectrum between such ideals between 99 and 1.

    Prejudice. Insecurity. Fear.

    These concepts force people into the trivial perception that they must latch onto either or of the polar extremes. Further more, the three ideals push the people to then admonish the opposite extreme as justication of their own falsehood.

    Wake up America. Learn to love yourself. Love who you are. Be who you are. And…lastly, allow the pride in being nothing more than an individual…to justify the our country’s moral truth…

    “All Men Are Created Equal”

    Simply created as…

    “Human”

    Comment by tn_24_ — May 18, 2006 @ 1:54 am - May 18, 2006

  22. To The President of the United States
    George W. Bush
    White House
    Washington Dc

    On Feb 13, 2007 I personally delivered a document to the New Hampshire Supreme Court and the Governor of NH. “Sovereign Challenge”. The NH Government and courts have knowingly violated the Constitution and all means of “Redress have failed. The News censors the facts to protect the powerful. The newspapers refuse to print the Opinion of the people. The courts have used the power that the voters in trusted in them to make biased decisions to protect their own at the individuals expense. The elected government officials are so afraid to speak for fear of losing influence from the powerful. Governor Lynch whom is doing a great job in other areas believes his trusted advisors that to get involved in my situation is wrong. To silence my volunteer helping a Madbury Family, NH has taken my freedom, 6 months loss before the bogus charges are dropped. NH interfered with my Veterans medical benefits to silence my free speech. I am 100% service connected disabled from the Vietnam Conflict. NH uses the State Police to harass my family at home. NH uses the State Police to harass my wife in public at her work. NH interfered with my running for state elected position. NH blocks my help from the NH disabled rights center. NH blocks my help from the NH veterans Council. NH out right commits the act of discrimination against a 100% disabled United States Marine injured defending this great nation. My message that I delivered is the truth.
    I admit that I have continued to volunteer help this Madbury family even after the courts ordered me to stop. I volunteer because I came back from something many of you will never be able to conceive. When the State of New Hampshire can use my service connected medial condition to control my free speech some thing is wrong. When NH and the courts can violated the United State constitution and the New Hampshire Constitution something is wrong. When the President of the United States can be informed that a 100% disabled United States Marine is discriminated against in the State of New Hampshire (and the President does not care) something is wrong. When the local newspaper Foster daily Democrat is so biased that they use my local town police to harass me some thing is wrong. I delivered one of the most shame full documents to you also Mr. President. (Sovereign Challenge on 2-13-07). You Mr. President along with the newspapers and the courts have Killed this United States Marine.
    Peter Macdonald Sgt. USMC Semper Fi
    465 Packersfalls rd Lee NH 03824
    603-659-6217
    c/c NH governor Lynch, newspapers, WMUR NH TV news and over 1000 others by e-mail comments@whitehouse.gov , john.lynch@nh.gov

    Comment by Peter Macdonald — February 16, 2007 @ 3:44 pm - February 16, 2007

  23. I am a heterosexual male and I am against the ban for openly gay citizens to join the military. When will this injustice stop? We are all human beings and deserve the right to fight for our country. Our country is supposed to be free, remember?

    Comment by Scott Million — April 8, 2007 @ 7:43 pm - April 8, 2007

  24. Tim: that first comment you posted was actually the best argument to end the DADT policy I have ever read and it surely is causign me to rethink my own private position.

    Comment by Vince P — April 8, 2007 @ 9:55 pm - April 8, 2007

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