When the trailer played before “Inside Man” last week at the famed Grauman’s Chinese Theatre in Hollywood, audience members began calling out, “Too soon!” In New York City, where 9/11 remains an open wound, the response was even more dramatic. The AMC Loews theater on Manhattan’s Upper West Side took the rare step of pulling the trailer from its screens after several complaints. “One lady was crying,” says one of the theater’s managers, Kevin Adjodha. “She was saying we shouldn’t have [played the trailer]. That this was wrong … I don’t think people are ready for this.” (via Newsweek.com)
Wrong…not too soon. This movie is in fact long overdue. Watch the trailer yourselves at the official movie website below.
It is about time that Hollywood addresses the War on Terror upfront and based in reality. Islamic terrorists want to kill Americans and are organized in world war to do so. Not Russians, not neo-Nazis…. Islamic radicals whose teachers are in this country and all over the globe spewing hate and death to a generation. They publicly pledge to bring down Western civilization. Yet we are afraid to deal with the facts. Instead, Hollywood glorified a fantasy film by a left-wing ideologue. United 93 is long overdue.
How dare we offend Upper West Side sensibilities! *sarcasm off*
Again my friends, offending the liberal sensibilities and ostrich mentality is also long overdue. The Democrat Party and their collaborateurs at the TV network news divisions have tried to bleach from our memories those horrific images of 9/11/2001. I thank God that director Paul Greengrass and Universal Pictures have the guts to show some of our American heroes during the hours of our nation’s darkest day.
I saw “Flight 93” on the A&E Network and it was enraging, enthralling, horribly sad, and wonderfully uplifting. This is an American story that must be told. I hope to be first in line on April 28 to see United 93.
-Bruce (GayPatriot)
Let’s see, you were nowhere near the tragedies on that particular day. Many New Yorkers had to deal it up front in their faces and the aftermath of terrorist attacks, you did not at all. Only watched it on television, huh?
Not only that, Bush pledged to help with the costs in NYC. So far, they hadn’t really helped enough to the city.
I think the residents reserved the right to say whatever is on their minds. Certainly not you, Bruce. It is tiresome to see you act like you’re good American but you forgot the ramifications that led to the acts of terrorism.
There is a reason behind the terrorist attacks. Osama bin Laden is a sympton of problem. Removing him will not cease anything else. Partially, it was our fault in the first place. But no, you will never admit to that, right?
It is never too soon to remind people what we are fighting against. We can’t throw the horror of that day down the memory hole.
NeoLiberal: At least, you don’t believe it was an “inside job”.
Or do you? (no reply required)
Thanks for the tip and the link. I heard that Oliver Stone was planning a film about this and I was shrieking “No Way!” Frankly, I would rather have no film made as opposed to a hatchet job done by Stone, Speilberg, the Crash guy, etc. However, the director’s comments suggest that it’s not a anti-American screed, and so I’ll check it out.
It’s not too early for such a film. It’s long past time for a non-PC debate about 9/11 and the war. 9/11 was an attack on America and each and every one of her citizens. No person, group or city “owns” 9/11. I find it tiresome when people try to shut down the debate by screeching that ONLY the 9/11 families or New Yorkers have a right to express an opinion. Somehow, they always leave out the Pentagon. Coincidence…I think not.
Neoliberal: “Partially, it was our fault in the first place.” Typical. Why don’t you hold your breath until we admit that you’re right…
NeoLiberal is correct. It is partially our fault. It’s our fault because we did nothing after the seizing of our embassy in Tehran. Nothing after the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beiruit. Nothing after the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, USS Cole, or the ambush in Mogadishu. It will continue to be our fault if we forget what happened on Sept 11th. We visually experienced it that day and in the days thereafter. Not being able to visually experience again allows it to be forgotten a little at a time.
There are those for whom it will be “too soon” on the 25th or 50th anniversary. It’s never too soon to be reminded of the viscousness of the enemy.
/ahw
BTW – What about us New Yorkers who say it isn’t too soon. Are we held hostage by those with the most sensitive tastes?
Actually, it’s all Clinton’s fault. I concur with Harry. It is never too soon to be showing these images.
And if you really want to see what 9/11 did in terms of human suffering, go to Michelle Malkin’s blog and look at the pics she posted of those poor “fascists” (to quote moonbat Ward Churchill) leaping to their doom.
To quote United 93, “Let’s roll.”
Lock and load, boys. This is one American who won’t be taken alive.
Regards,
Peter Hughes
NeoLiberal says – “Let’s see, you were nowhere near the tragedies on that particular day. ..”
How dare you presume so much. Bruce & I lived in Alexandria, VA on 9/11. We lost a dear friend who was killed when his plane was flown and crashed into the Pentagon that day. I personally lived with the fear of not knowing what was happening with Bruce in DC and the inability to contact Bruce nor my sister who had clients in the WTC that she visited often.
I had always said that the day I lost my mother to cancer was the worst day of my life…until WE ALL lived through the terrorism of 9/11. So, no, you do not get to claim some special right to spew your brand of faux outrage about acts of war that you apparently feel were somehow justified by the actions or inactions of America – under Republican & Deomcrat Presidents alike – because you may or may not have lived in NYC at that time.
9/11 affected ALL Americans. Some, like us, never got to see our friend again because of that day. Worse still are those who never got to greet their Mommies or Daddies because of that day; but we were all affected.
Neither Bruce nor I would ever claim any more right to feel how we do about the bastards who slaughtered 3000 innocent – yes, innocent – Americans that day simply because of our personal loss and involvement. We do so because we are Americans first and foremost.
So, NeoLiberal, you’re very first words start off in ignorance and get no better from there. You should be ashamed of yourself for such presumption, but I would never ask you to behave like a human being first when you could play politics instead.
Good to see that there are no “name” actors involved, which would’ve been unnecessarily distracting.
In the trailer, we briefly see a tall, athletic guy in a rugby shirt jogging through the terminal to board the flight — presumably that’s Mark Bingham!
Ditto to what PatriotPartner said to the primo idiot, NeoLiberal. I was working two blocks from the White House on 9/11/2001 and thought I was never going to get home alive that day. I had to take the Metro underneath the burning Pentagon and then had to walk an hour more home.
And as John said one of our closest friends was on American Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon (unless Neo believes it was a Bush-wired explosive).
Don’t be such a knee-jerk moron next time.
If neoliberal had bothered to actually look at the site provided he/she/it would have known that this movie was done with the permission of the families of those lost to Flight 93 and with much of their involvment.
I was indeed “lucky” enough to only be affected by 9/11 through the tv as a 16 year old girl in Indiana. However, saying that because I didn’t lose anyone I loved on that day I can have no opinion on the events, is ignorant. Just because you were there doesn’t mean that my experience is any less valuable.
Thanks Bruce for the heads up on the movie. I hadn’t heard anything about the project but I will be there when it opens… with a box of kleenex in hand. ::goes back to lurking::
Responding to Harry: What about the current plans that the city wants to rebuild but is hijacked by the deceased victims’ families who whined and insisted that the site is to be vacated and memorialized. This is New York, the financial capital of the country — the families need to quit and move on. That’s what their victims would wanted it to be.
Why did “they” do things to us? Especially the incidents before the 9/11 acts, why? Why do they do that? Because the answer is there. We interfere with their decisions to operate their countries. Iran, prior to the revolution, was ruled by the Shah, financed by Americans, oppressed the majority of the Iranians. Why do you think they revolted against the Shah and trashed Americans as well? Mogadishu? Yemen? Beirut? Tanzania and Kenya? Same problems stemming from what? Bad foreign policies.
PatriotPartner (I love that name, it is a sign of absurdity, really!): Sorry I don’t believe you or Bruce’s comments at all.
Alli: Maybe we should ask the victims’ families for the permission to rebuild the WTC in Ground Zero? Nah, they already got the money. So life goes on. The planet still revolves even if you were hit by a car. It does not stop for you. The families that were maimed needs to move on and let the city rebuild without any interferences.
NeoLiberal, I’m calling Cynthia McKinney’s office and hope that she goes after you with her cell phone. At least that way she’ll be doing both the country and this board a service.
Regards,
Peter Hughes
I don’t need permission from anyone.
Dare I piss everyone off here and say that for *some* people 9-11 wasn’t the first they concieved of the notion that there are violent evil people in the world even when you’re a member of the “immune” classes. And it’s not necessary to personally experience horror to know that is true. Safety was always a fantasy. 9-11 was an invitation for individual people to join the adult world where evil people do evil things for evil reasons. Dictators gas villages. Tyrants commit genocide. Women and children are tossed into mass graves. Human life isn’t valued any more than a dog is valued.
People who *knew* that were angry, and either mourned their personal tragedy or felt for the loss of the survivors or worried about what politics would bring us. People who didn’t know that had the very foundation of their existance shaken. They had always *known* they were immune. They’d known it deep in their bones that bad stuff happens over there… somewhere, but not here.
And a sub-section of those absolutely *refuse* to abandon their immunity. They search for a reason, a fault that can be avoided in the future… if only… if only we do things *right*, if only we are *nice*, if only we behaved differently this would have never ever happened. Immunity is preserved in that way. Belief that the horror over there, somewhere, can’t touch us is preserved if only we can find the cause, the reason, the sin we committed to bring this on ourselves.
Blame the victims. If someone hates them so bad to bomb them… there must be a reason.
They teach us that in school. Don’t provoke people and you won’t get beat up. Walk away. Don’t respond to taunts. And we grow up. And usually we figure out that burned supper isn’t a reason to be beaten, that rape victims *didn’t* ask for it. That it doesn’t matter how bad someone’s childhood… there are no excuses. You can’t be good enough or nice enough to placate people who believe in violence. It’s not possible.
Bruce, I won’t see the movie, for me it is too soon, because I have never forgotten, and I live 1500 miles away. But there are many in America who do seem to have forgotten, and they should see this movie.
Typical “Neo”Liberal – All you say is a lie (it is not, it is all true) and what I say must be true and believed. I need say no more. NeoLiberal’s comments alone say EVERYTHING there is to know about him and we should assume likewise, therefore, that he was no where near NYC, PA or DC on 9/11 at all, let alone in this country.
It’s amazing how many Americans want to bury their heads in the sand.
A few years ago, when I was director of a military museum, I found in storage about two dozen photos from a Nazi death camp. The photos were very graphic, several showing bodies stacked like cordwood. One spring, on the anniversary of Allied liberation of that particular camp, I put the photos on display.
I was shocked by the number of mothers, chaperoning school groups, who demanded that the photos be removed; they felt they were too graphic for the children to see. I refused, telling the mothers it was a matter of history and that children needed to know, and their parents reminded, what humans are capable of doing to other humans.
So, of course, stories about what happened on 9/11 can’t be shelved. Americans need to be reminded why we’re fighting a war against terrorism. Too many seem to have forgotten.
Your posting has some valid points about remembering, but you couched them in some intemperate language.
PatriotPartner, you are VERY wrong. I was in DC when it happened. In fact, I was on 4th floor and I could see the black smoke out of Pentagon. I also heard that the State Department were bombed. It was so melodrama all day long. And my pager went off all day long because I had friends living in New York. Not only that, I moved to New York a year after it happened — so I got to know people whose experienced with the situation up front.
Hell, I worked with people who were traumatized by WTC (their PTSD, that is!) and it was hell. And by working with these people in mental health services, I never saw a cent out of Bush’s promises to New York to help these people as well.
So I think I am more interwined with this experience more than you can, you little Suburban boy.
Well NeoLiberal, we all saw and experienced the same thing that day then, as horrible as it was. I remind you, the Pentagon is in “the suburbs” and I was in all liklihood physically closer to it that day than anyone in DC…for all that’s worth. I didn’t actually doubt that you may have been near one of the terrorist acts; that, however, is what you did in your very first post. In the future, you would be wise to think twice before calling into question others’ veracity when you don’t want yours questioned in the same way. You didn’t like it and neither would anyone else. This was not meant to be a pisssing match about who was the “most affected” on 9/11. It was about correcting your original false insinuation. Pissing match finished.
NeoLiberal-I don’t think anyone gets a gold star for being the most or least affected by what happened on 9-11. I don’t think deciding that you are “more” or “less” deserving to determine what is appropriate in regards to showing a film about 9-11 means that your opinion counts for more.
Sorry, but my feeling is that if somebody made the film, and they are marketing it, then fine. If it is too soon for you, then by all means do not go see it, wait for the DVD, when you are personally ready to see it, but I don’t think you should get personal veto power to determine that it is “too soon” for others who may disagree with you.
It isn’t like anyone is holding a gun to your head telling you to go see a film you don’t feel ready to see. Stay home, or go watch something else.
In fact, it is not a film to remind you what happened — it may be perceived like that. But Hollywood did this to make money.
That’s all — after all, they are trying to capitalize on the obsession of American patriotism, though.
PP: I hate to admit that I was about 5.5 miles away from Pentagon when it happened — I’m sure it is much closer than yours (even I admit that a good friend of mine insisted she was driving on Washington BLVD when the plane went into the building — she only saw the explosion but never a plane, though) though but the point is it happened 5 years ago — it happened for a reason. We learn from it, and let’s move on to better things in life. Improve the relationships, foreign policies and so on.
Accusing Liberals and Democrats for being cute towards the terrorists are offensive and inappropriate. I think it is safe to say that the people are getting tired of accusations on both sides. The families of mangled victims are capitalizing on every turn to thwart the city from rebuilding a new tower. Enough is enough. Let it go already. Don’t lock the greatest city in the world with its guilt.
Looky here GayPatriot, I, too, believe that any movie that reminds people of the horror of the tragedy and is illustrative of the flaws in and what needs to be done to improve the system is good.
I don’t want people building on Civil War battle sites. I think the Holocaust musuem is a must visit. I believe that tragedies occur and no amount of ignoring that or trying to ignore them changes the facts of the events.
But your line about the Democrat Party is a low blow. If anyone is trying to hide the images it would be the corporate interest, who are looking out for their bottom line. And if showing pictures and reminders of 9/11 is going to offend a vast majority of the viewing public chances are they will not be shown. Oh, lest ye forgot, the corporate interest tend to be on the right of the political spectrum.
NeoLib sez, “Accusing Liberals and Democrats for being cute towards the terrorists are offensive and inappropriate.”
Ah, but they ARE Blanche, they ARE! Prove me otherwise. Ya can’t.
Partially, it was our fault in the first place. — that’s from NeoLib’s first comment on this posting. He’s clearly the President of the “Blame America First” Club.
Now, as President James Marshall said, “GET OFF MY PLANE!”
It’s pretty obvious that NeoLiberal is a typical Leftist in that nothing can be done about anything, anywhere because somewhere, somehow, someone’s feelings may be hurt. Except of course when it’s movies like F-911? I’m sure NeoLiberal will say that F-911 shouldn’t have been shown…
Which reminds me, it seems to me that while Hollywood is wanting to capitalize upon this for a profit, they don’t want to offend Liberals, hence we have two Flight 93 movies where the heroes were civilians and the Oliver Stone one about a PA officer. If Hollywood was really trying to “capitalize on American patriotism” then there would be movies about the removal of the Taliban. The campaign that NeoLiberal’s friends said would cost thousands of lives and create millions of refugees…
But we won’t see that movie anytime soon because the heroes in that are scourge of Leftists everywhere–The US Military.
Flight 11 that left Boston to go to Los Angeles Ca was the flight I often took going home when I lived in So Cal.
Pearl Harbor touched my grandparents deeply even though they were safely on their farm in Iowa.
Sigh, I feel sorry for those so closed off to emotions and the meaning of what happened that tragic day on 9-11. What those that danced in the streets the day 9-11 happened have in mind for us is so much worse.
The lack of imagination of what could happen to us all, is stunning.
Only watched it on television, huh?
So I think I am more interwined with this experience more than you can, you little Suburban boy.
Damn you, arrogant prick. Damn you.
Osama bin Laden is a sympton of problem. Removing him will not cease anything else.
Sounds like a pretty damn good step in the right direction. Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t bother?
#21
But your line about the Democrat Party is a low blow.
No it’s not. The “Democrats” are hell bent on our defeat in Iraq and have/are doing everything they can to convince the American people that Bush is the enemy.
Libs offer us zip-zero-nada (They’ve got Nada III) outside of rhetoric, lies and hate. Tim Kaine’s eyebrow can say “there’s a better way” until it’s blue in the face, but until they offer any suggestions, NOBODY’s going to buy it and nobody’s going to vote for them anytime soon.
And no, there’s not a damn thing that you could spin up that would prove otherwise.
BTW, the Port Snort and censuring the president for protecting this country ain’t gonna get you anywhere either.
It is sad that there are many Americans who continue to refuse to believe that our country, not just our government, not liberals or democrats, but all of us are in part culpable for what happened to us on 9/11.
Going back generations, we have played a part in the issues of the middle east in order to keep ourselves comfortable with the spoils of what cheap fuel could provide to us. To that end we assisted in installing dictators (the Shah of Iran), When Iran erupted into chaos and Americans wanted revenge, we eventually turned to arming their dictator neighbor to aid us (Saddam in Iraq). When we wanted an opportunity to get at our biggest nemesis, we aided Afghanistan in the war against the USSR. After that conflict, with a country in ruin and turmoil, we simply abandoned the people we used to get the Russians. The United Arab Emirates are fractured beyond belief – between those who want to keep their own religious and moral values against the leaders who have sold much of their oil to the world for handsome profits over the decades. (It is important to note though that those within the Arab Emirates have moved against the U.S. have done so with funds that have come largely from the U.S. – I guess money still talks, no matter what your religious/political affiliations)
Terrrorists are clearly the worst extreme of any opposition group, whether they be liberal or conservative in nature. For many years, our country sat between Earth’s 2 greatest oceans, protecting us from the vast majoriy of the rest of the world. Of course, this is no longer true and 9/11 taught us that lesson. So, do we just go around the world and “kick butt”? Or, do we take a look at what we do at home and abroad to obtain the material goods that give us the comforts which many of us have in our lives? Introducing a false democracy in a country simply so we can get more oil and find a place to build a few more McDonald’s certainly isn’t the way.
My god. I think I’m in love with conservativebutmoderate. He totally nailed on this subject. Great post, CBM. Can I marry you?
I too want to marry CBM!
> It is sad that there are many Americans who continue to
> refuse to believe that our country, not just our government,
> not liberals or democrats, but all of us are in part culpable
> for what happened to us on 9/11.
I could not agree more.
I remember clearly the interview that NBC (I think) did with al-Zawahiri in the late ’90’s. He was quite clear in his and Al Qaeda’s motivation. They planned and executed these terrible attacks because they thought that the U.S was weak and would not respond. They thought bad things would not happen to them no matter what atrocities they committed against the US and its allies.
So the US’s failure to respond robustly to the challenges made by terrorists since the Tehran Embassy kidnappings of 1980 lead directly to 9/11. Act weak and every bully and psycho will try to pick a fight with you. Act strong and the bullies and psycho will talk loudly and do nothing..
Act weak and every bully and psycho will try to pick a fight with you. Act strong and the bullies and psycho will talk loudly and do nothing..
Which recalls the sad, pathetic spectacle of Dianne Feinstein calling for retreat from Iraq because Mookie al-Sadr (or al-Zarqawi) said some things that made her feel scared.
I was not aware that American foreign policy was responsible for creating Mohammad’s Jihad. All this time I thought Islamic Jihad was motivated by words written in the Koran.
Can conservativebutmoderateneoliberals explain why when Flight 93 went down the hijackers screamed Allah Akbar and not Oil Akbar?
I cannot help but notice Liberals obsession with oil is almost as obsessive as Islam’s obsession with sexuality.
Sure, it’s a painful memory. But it’s a memory that must not fade from the American consciousness. Perhaps this movie is too soon for some people. I do not expect them, or want them to see it. But for many this movie should be a valuable and timely reminder. After four and a half years we must not become complacent. Eight years transpired between the first and second attacks on the WTC. We must remain vigilant.
For my friends on the left who believe we need to understand our enemy and the reasons for their violent action, I urge you to seek out a recent History Channel documentary on the history of the Baath Party of Iraq. As it turns out, not too surprisingly, the Baathists of Iraq were closely associated with the German Nazis and had dealings with the Soviet Communists. In short the influence of fascism and totalitarianism on the Middle East from many decades past has had disastrous results. Before anyone blames the US and the West they need to take a look at the global picture from an historical perspective. Blaming Bush and the US is a cop out and reveals intellectual laziness.
I moved to Israel from America 15 years ago, and I am not on the scene, but I think that if the movie was done sensitively (as it seems to be from the trailer), it will be a blockbuster. Real people were the heroes that day, and real people will want to acknowledge that.
As a New Yorker whose father had a monthly meeting that was supposed be held in the WTC that morning and whose stepfather saw the towers collapse from his office window, my feeling is that it is not too soon.
I understand, of course, that others will disagree. As is their right.
But some people thought Schindler’s List was too soon. And movie theatres ONLY heard from the people who thought it was too soon, not the many who thought it was time or past time.
As I mention on my blog, the trailer gave me chills. I also saw a brief ‘making of’ feature in which the director explains his process of going to the families (he was concerned about doing it too soon). Family members were shown who were glad that the story of their brothers, mothers, husbands were being told.
There comes a time in the debate when one must say “Enough” –and the new conservativebutmoderate, neo liberal and the rest have crossed that point.
No amount of reason, determined debate, insight or collective efforts of this community to point out the deceptions of their arguments will result in constructive growth for them, for us, or for the greater good.
But when it devolves into a debate about who was more harmed by the events of 9/11 or trying to shift the blame back to the horrible miscalculations of JimminyCricketCarter to undermine a longtime ally in the Middle East, we’ve tossed the proverbial baby and bathwater out the window.
Teheran didn’t lead inextricably to Baghdad or the WOT. The fall of the Shah of Iran didn’t lead to the Cole. It’s the lie of historians which allows us to see dominoes (dan quayle spelling) falling in a row when thousands of world events and literally millions of decisions intervene between events.
The true lesson VietNam should have taught all of us –including the liberals– was allowing dissent in a warring nation is not an option and defending dissent behind the cover of the Constitution is to strip that document of all relevancy.
Like pornographers debasing the 1st Amendment, modern liberals and Democrats have done the same to protect their politically-motivated and partisan use of dissent in the WOT. And the responses of those noted above proves that point soundly.
Sometimes debate is no longer an option with those who would do our society, our country, our Nation great harm.
syn: I can answer to this since I got an A in the Modern Middle East in college few years ago. The masses in Islamic-dominated countries which were financed largely by the United States (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan) has turned to Islam’s fringes for “hope” to improve their lives. There, they were conned by the Imams who preached hate against the Americans.
If our government made efforts to encourage or force these countries that ignored the masses to give the masses concessions to basic rights and employment, islamic extremism will be finished. But we did not. We just gloat about our freedoms, but yet handed over the money to the countries that used it to oppress their masses. IN turn, they viewed us as the great evil of all. Who can blame them for thinking like that?
MIchigan-Matt, spoken like a red American out to silence people who disagreed with your views.
NeoLoonie, it doesn’t matter if you got an A in your classes, it doesn’t give you carte blance to pontificate about matters which you have not directly experienced. Your opening sentence lost me with its liberal arrogance and “holier-than-thou” attitude.
And for the record – I am a poly-sci professor at a major Southwestern university and I have relatives in the Middle East with whom I visit or correspond with frequently. Does this make me more qualified than you to comment about this issue?
I rest my case.
Regards,
Peter Hughes
There is a reason behind the terrorist attacks. Osama bin Laden is a sympton of problem. Removing him will not cease anything else. Partially, it was our fault in the first place. But no, you will never admit to that, right?
Uh oh. I’ll bet he’s one step away from blaming the JOOOOS.
Neo – Since you don’t believe any of the facts about where I was and who I lost on 9/11… then I don’t believe you got an A in any subject except basketweaving.
Of course it’s never too soon to see Sharon Stone’s naughty bits again….
Oh, and never mind that Al Qaeda’s stated goal is and always has been the restoration of the Caliphate… there’s always a way to pin all of the world’s ills on evil, fascist, theocratic Amerikkka.
Do you even know what “Al Qaeda” means? It means “the base” or “the foundation,” as in Al Qaeda will lay the foundation of the new Caliphate.
And “conservative but moderate,” just come out and admit that you aren’t really conservative at all. When I saw that name after that unhinged America-bashing rant I about fell out of my chair.
I particularly like this line: Introducing a false democracy in a country simply so we can get more oil and find a place to build a few more McDonald’s certainly isn’t the way. That could have come straight from Code Pink, Michael Moore, or Cindy Sheehan. How about you face reality and change your name to “leftwing nutjob?”
Jordan, I should say that you’re rightwing nutjob as well. Cut down with your demeaning words against liberals and leftwingers. It reflects the bitter attitude of yours so far. It is boring and tiresome to read rantings and offensive terms on liberals and democrats day in and out. Move on already.
GP, point taken. You can disbelieve all you want but my general knowledge of Arab countries are much better and duly noted than yours anyday, though. Basketweaving? I’d love to try that one day.
PH: I expect your standard response. Thanks for doing the exact things I expected you to do.
: I got an A in the Modern Middle East in college few years ago
why doesn’t that surprise me?
: I can answer to this since I got etc etc
ah, i see; that means you know it all then…
I’ve replied to this post here, at The Cranky Insomniac.
I basically agree with Bruce, but I’m a lot more sympathetic to NeoLiberal than most of you.
It’s time to separate the fly-crap from the pepper, Sports Fans.
The pathologies of Islam are traced directly to the Koran.
Case closed !!!
April 28, yeah!!!
#15 – Jack – thank you!
#16 – What intemperate language? Translation: What Bruce said was the truth, and the truth offends Democrats, making it (insert critical-sniffing word here) by definition.
#47 – So, Cranky – You’re sympathetic to the idea (NL’s key point in #1) that Islamo-fascism and terrorism are “our fault in the first place”??? Two words for you both – words that I have never once uttered in my 2 years here… EAT SHIT.
And this from #39:
“If our government made efforts to encourage or force these countries that ignored the masses to give the masses concessions to basic rights and employment, islamic extremism will be finished…”
So you’re a vigorous Iraq war supporter then, right NL? Right?????
If not – hang your head in shame, NL.
C’mon, Cal. You know the leap in logic was unwarranted and the language was intemperate. The ad hominem arguments which follow do nothing positive, no minds can be changed. It becomes unbecoming rant.
I wonder how the Flight 93 story would have been different if Nancy Pelosi, Jack Murtha, Barbara Boxer, and Dianne Feinstein had been on board. They probably would have insisted that no one fight back, because that would have made the terrorists angry. They probably would have said that the best thing to do was to do whatever the hijackers wanted. And Boxer and Pelosi probably would have argued that the terrorists were only striking back because against American Imperialism.
And if Howard Dean and Harry Reid had been on board, they would have stopped anyone from doing anything ‘heroic’ for fear that it might help Bush.
You never seem to fail to disappoint, “NeoLiberal” –or whoever you are this day. You write “…spoken like a red American out to silence people who disagreed with your views”.
You seek not to dissent; you seek to leverage the latest bad news into partisan fuel for political advantage. You seek not to inform; you seek to impose your world view and establish a new American impotency equal to JimminyCricketCarter’s last hurrah.
You are not “new” as suggested in the neo attribution –we’ve had your type hanging around the press rooms and ivory towers during most wars… comfortable in the defense of your presumed right to inflame and divide, content in being a backbencher with the bitter anger of margianlization stamped on all your pronoucements. There’s nothing new in your comments or opinions –we can find you any day at Crooks & Liars, OutSports, AmericanBlog, BlogActive, or the DailyKos.
And, truth be told, you’re not “liberal” either. At your core you are an apologist for cultural excesses, a defender of the base and ill-suited lots in our society, and an intellectual coward.
There is nothing noble in the dissent that has consumed the media elite, the ivory towers, or the Democrat Party leadership these days. It is a sickness rooted in evil lust for political power… you, NeoLiberal, are the moral equivalent of GoB, Ian, Mr Mod and a dozen other voices on this thread –sick, impotent, and discarded.
#51 – No Gene, you lost me. What leap in logic? What intemperate language? (In Bruce’s original post – not in my stuff.) Kindly explain.
#53 – “…you, NeoLiberal, are the moral equivalent of GoB, Ian, Mr Mod and a dozen other voices on this thread…”
Which assumes generously, of course, that NL *isn’t* “GoB, Ian, Mr Mod and a dozen other voices…”.
I got an A in the Modern Middle East in college few years ago
Yeah, it’s not like Middle East studies departments aren’t notorious dumping grounds for America-haters and anti-Semites. See Columbia University for example. I’m not surprised that you got an A; all they want to hear is that America is responsible for the problems of the Middle East.
I got an A in the Modern Middle East in college few years ago
I want to say something about that as well, but it’s all been said. (Thanks Jordan)
What a weird boast it is. What kind of sophomore (in the word’s etymological sense – look it up) thinks an A in anything gives them superiority in jack squat?
I’m learning Arabic – that makes my opinion more important now than anyone’s, right?????? (no… only my facts & logic – and only if I’m right)
I’d be interested in knowing as well, Gene, especially since a paid and endorsed spokesperson of the Democratic Party, Cindy Sheehan, says SPECIFICALLY that these terrorists are “freedom fighters”, that we are manipulated into war by “Zionists”, and that she and Code Pink are perfectly justified in sending money to fund the activities of said terrorists.
And Cal on #50: good show. These liberals are the first to point fingers at “repressive governments” for causing the problem, but also the first to scream bloody murder if we make moves to remove them — again, as paid and endorsed Democratic Party spokesperson Cindy Sheehan said when she castigated the United States for removing the Taliban and Saddam Hussein.
Of course, you must remember that the other thing the media buried is Saddam Hussein’s abuses, as CNN has openly admitted it did. The DNC has exploited that and tried to deflect attention away from the horrific crimes Saddam’s regimes committed, as well as the fact that their allies at the UN were paid vast sums to overlook Saddam’s violations. Democrats use the canard of “more inspections” when they knew that the UN was being bribed specifically to sabotage those inspections.
#45 – “PH: I expect your standard response. Thanks for doing the exact things I expected you to do.”
How’s this for a standard response: You are a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance when it comes to anything having to do with the real world of Middle Eastern philosophy and mindset. And I also take it that your much-vaunted “class” on the Middle East was mostly anti-Semitic as well.
Did your class ever teach you the truth about the founding of the State of Israel? Or did it include such enlightened phrases as “The Jews are our misfortune,” “The Jews stole Arab land” and “The Middle East is the way it is because of American and Zionist imperialism?”
And I dare say you didn’t expect me to say THAT, now did you? Because if so, I can guarantee you a place in the State department with that kind of psychic ability.
Regards,
Peter Hughes
Michigan-Matt, e-mail me when you get a chance. Thanks.
#50 That was my reaction too. It seems to me that the US has promoted “stability” above justice for quite a long time and it hasn’t worked. It’s time to stop propping tyrants. And you’d think… you really would, that the “other side” would agree with this… those who are *supposed* to be all about social justice and equality and opportunity. Yes?
No.
Because although they sing a nice tune about equality and human dignity, they really don’t *believe* that people can manage self-rule. They don’t *believe* that Afghanistan can fumble it’s way to a stable and equitable society or that Iraqis can truely partake of democracy.
This bone deep belief in inequality is also reflected in the habit of marginalizing people, or determining who is marginalized, in any situation. Hence we have NeoLiberal who, first, establishes that he’s more qualified to speak on the issue of 9/11 than anyone else. This is important and necessary. Then we find, also, that he’s more qualified to speak on the issue of mid-east history and culture. This estabilishing rank is a normal part of nearly any transaction… watch for it.
(It’s also typical of school age social interactions and I find it logical in extreme that “social” children grow up to be liberal.)
#61 – Your point reminds me further of the bizarre claim that Cindy Sheehan would speak with “absolute moral authority” (Maureen Dowd’s phrase) because of losing a son.
No, children… *Casey* Sheehan, the hero who signed up for Iraq and sadly was lost, has the moral authority here – because *he did something* to fight evil.
Liberal’s assertions of superior rank (as you describe) usually amount to who can assert the biggest-sounding claim to victimhood; the biggest-sounding wound.
NL mis-played the “education” card – it takes a good PhD to pull it off, and even then, if you don’t have a valid logical argument, the card is rightly ineffective.
I fail to see what “east coast sensibilites” or New York City has to do with Flight 93.
Gene is correct. When one attempts to tar the others with offensive terms, people simply will not listen to your comments. It becomes a chorus of rants back and forth.
Synova: The current democracy in Iraq is pretty much flawed. Why do you think they wanted to install sharia laws? Something has to be done differently.
#59: You’ll be shocked to know that I’m pro-Israel. In fact, if I must choose between Israel and Arab countries, Israel is the first option I would support. But the problem between Israel and America is that Israel completely understand the ramifications that has been happening in Arab countries and they often talked about this, that and there. Americans do not. Americans lived a long sheltered life — maybe 9/11 tragedy is a wake-up call. Israel knew that killing Palestinian terrorists do not help at all, there are other options.
Palestinians and many others are flawed, obviously. After years of subjugation and oppression by dictators, they are merely reacting by hate. We need to find a solution rather than to stand like a pompous American saying, “Fuck with me, I’ll kick your ass!”
It will serve nobody but to continue hits back and forth. For years.
NDT: Touche of you to insert “paid and endorsed spokesperson of Democratic Party” — nothing is far from the truth. But I expect this from you, though.
Calarato: Your sophomoric rantings are absurd, to say the least. Getting an A in Modern Middle East does not mean that I’m anti-semitic. Just that I am well-versed with what happened in the Middle East between 1890s to the current events. Among my best friends are Israelites, and in fact, they compliment me that I seem to know the complicated issues within the nation of Israel more than any ordinary American. Learning Arabic? I’m impressive. Plans to learn this language so that you can sabotage them in the process, eh?
#64 – “We need to find a solution rather than to stand like a pompous American saying, “Fuck with me, I’ll kick your ass!” ”
Actually, a strong American who has had enough of Islamofascists trying to dominate him and impress their flawed worldview on him and his friends doesn’t say that.
Instead, he gathers his fellow Americans together and says “LET’S ROLL.”
THEN they go out and kick some ass. Which you, being the peacenik pansy that you are, would be unable to do if you were in the same situation.
God forbid you and I should be in that same situation together.
Regards,
Peter Hughes
We need to find a solution rather than to stand like a pompous American saying, “Fuck with me, I’ll kick your ass!”
Yeah, like appeasement. They won’t stop until they get their Caliphate or they’re dead.
Actually, I much prefer, ” F*** with me, I’ll kick your ass!” to “F*** with me and I’ll fire missiles into a bunch of empty tents during my Impeachment hearings.”
#64 – NL – where did I ever say you were anti-Semetic?
Next time you want to worry aloud about sophomoric rantings, kindly view yourself closely in a mirror, OK?
And I tend to doubt that your Israeli “best friends”, if they are English-speaking (and exist), care to be referred to as “Israelites”. LOL 🙂
And kindly don’t tell me that you find yourself impressive. I don’t find you impressive, to say the least, dope.
As for “We need to find a solution rather than to stand like a pompous American saying, “Fuck with me, I’ll kick your ass!””
First, NL shows off his/her/its fundamental ignorance of U.S. policy right there… since (appreciated comments above aside), that actually isn’t our policy.
Promoting democracy and freedom, and removing dictators is our policy.
NL, you seem to have avoided my question about whether you support that policy. Hang your head in shame if you don’t.
Second – If you don’t think that promoting democracy and freedom for the peoples of the Middle East is a good policy – then what solution do you actually propose? Or, NL, are you only full of criticism?
(and pretensions?)
Oh and finally NL… GEEZ… Can’t you come up with anything more original than “sophomoric”, after *I* used it on you in #57????????????
Wasn’t originality supposed to be your big thing, that you slammed somebody else about in another thread?
Anybody care to count how many specific absurd, false pretensions or hypocrisies NL has given us by now? (Reminds me of hank!!)
Actually, Calarato, you spell “Neoliberal”, R-I-D-O-R. 🙂
Partial, conditional retraction of #71 – I might be confusing you with Ian. Sorry if I was.
44: Sir, you may not realize it, but there are a significant amount of conservatives who believe that we took a wrong detour in the middle east. That detour has led away from the capture of Osama Bin Laden. It will soon be 5 years since 9/11/01 and still this man who masterminded the murder of over 3000 people on our shores still has yet to be caught. Like many Americans, I’ve been waiting to see this man captured and punished.
Sir, you may not realize it, but there are a significant amount of conservatives who believe that we took a wrong detour in the middle east.
Perhaps, but they don’t believe we went to war for “oil and McDonalds” as you claim. Only leftwing nutjobs like you say garbage like that.
From NL in #39
The masses in Islamic-dominated countries… has turned to Islam’s fringes for “hope” to improve their lives. There, they were conned by the Imams who preached hate against the Americans
I see socialist indoctrination is alive and well on campus.
In reality, all of the 9/11 hijackers came from middle/upper middle class backgrounds and were well educated. They were not part of the poor and illiterate “masses”.
And I believe that Bin Laden is/was better than upper middle class.
bin Ladin’s family is among the wealthiest in Saudi Arabia.
I believe I’ve read that bin Ladin personally is a multi-millionaire.
That detour has led away from the capture of Osama Bin Laden. It will soon be 5 years since 9/11/01 and still this man who masterminded the murder of over 3000 people on our shores still has yet to be caught.
Because, of course, capturing Osama and giving him a trial under the auspices of the ACLU will end all terrorism forever because OBL is the world’s only terrorist.
By this same logic, World War II took a wrong detour when we attacked Hitler, because we never captured the real mastermind behind 12-7, Admiral Yamamoto.
#53
MM, will you marry partner and I? 🙂
#78
I read Richard Miniter’s assertion that he hasn’t got the cash.
As someone who lived in Manhattan on 9/11 and experienced that day firsthand, rather than on television, I have no interest in seeing this movie. I know the story and I know how it ends.
They can make the movie now, but I won’t be going to see it.
Calarato, sorry I mistook you for Jordan — he mentioned that by taking History of Modern Middle East course, the course probably was filled with anti-semitism. Nothing is far from the truth. According to the Bush Administration, they are trying to democratize Iraq but Iraq, especially smaller communities, prefers shia or islamic republic. I think it will be hilarious to democratize the government only to see it slip into Islamic Republic.
No need to bash me when I talk about things. It is nice to know that there are bitter conservatives willing to attack me of my intelligence rather to discuss on the subject. Too bad, so far, you’re merely attacking me with personal insults. There are some folks who made comments that is thoughtful-provoking but you, Calarato, are nothing but a hateful, bitter queen.
I’m pro-Israel. Initially, Israel was willing to divide up the land in early 1950s as the UN offered, Palestine rejected and sided with the Arab Countries. Israel claimed the lands after the brief war. That is their right. Palestine lost it in the first place.
But dealing with Islamic extremists are different, they are bitter because they were denied of basic rights and education by their tyrants that were financed by whom? The Americans!
Peter Hughes: You do not know who I am. I am proud to be liberal and if my life was threatened on an airline, I’d fight back. You’d try to make calls to get insurance on your life before doing something else. Hell, Flight 93 was not rescued. From what I read the information, when they fought back and attempted to barge in the cockpit, the terrorists simply flew it down into the floor. So much for heroism, IMHO.
NeoLiberal said…
“But dealing with Islamic extremists are different, they are bitter because they were denied of basic rights and education by their tyrants that were financed by whom? The Americans!”
Again, I have little to offer here, other than to ask my polar opposite if he blamed himself when attacked by narrow-minded thugs for liking boys.
Neo, please take a moment to consider whether or not you truly believe that this republic is responsible for the horrible fates of Danny Pearl, Nick Berg, et al.
I grant you that America has made some truly piss-poor choices in it’s brief history, but to lay the blame for the behavior of sociopaths who regard us as less than human, and therefore subject to the most gruesome of deaths, is absolutely abhorrent.
If my dog repeatedly poops on my neighbor’s lawn, despite my best efforts to prevent it, and said neighbor one day shoots my dog, is this my fault for not being more effective in training?
This seems to be the thrust of “your sides'” argument.
Eric in Hollywood
NeoLiberal: You also do not know who I am. Rather than using my cell phone to call some phony insurance person that you assume I have, I would instead use it a la Cynthia “Lethal Weapon” McKinney and try to take down any hankie-head who got between me and my liberty.
And unlike McKinney, I know damn well the differnece between who is intent on hurting Americans and those who are protecting our freedoms. That is why I cannot stand people who make excuses for terrorists.
And I would gladly welcome your assistance as long as you were not screaming like a little girl and trying to hide. As the surgeon told Reagan on the day he was shot: “Today we’re all Republicans, Mr. President.”
I wouldn’t care who you voted for. I would only hope that you would stand beside me and fight those who threatened our lives, rather than trying to psychoanalyze them while the plane was going down.
I am also not some rich blue-blood prep-school Republican. I am the product of immigrants, someone who takes personal responsibility for his actions, who worked his way through two college degrees and (just FYI) can bench 220 lbs and can fight bareknuckled if my safety is threatened and I cannot work it out through “peaceful” means. As John Wayne once said: “It ain’t braggin’ if you can do it.”
And I would be the first to jump in if you were in trouble. That goes for anyone on this board, period. I doubt those posters at DailyKaos and Dummycrat Underground would do the same for a conservative.
Regards,
Peter Hughes
PH, nice to know that you benched 220 lbs — I started to work out few months ago, and I’m up to 100 lbs now. I played several sports in high school but I dislike going to the workouts but these days, I have to do it.
In fact, when I was in Miami, I met this lesbian who told me to get out of gay bar because she assumed I was straight. It took 4 friends of mine to assure her that I’m homo.
I doubt you’d jump in if I was in trouble — I honestly doubt so but thanks for the offer. You’re right that I probably will not jump in yours — I mean, there are plenty of people who will jump in to save you.
But if I was on a plane, it’s matter of survival. Regarding the plane hostage, I’m not going to shriek like a girl. I probably will be the first one in the line to attack.
I agreed about McKinney, she’s nuts. But please do not associate her with Liberals. She’s too radical for a liberal. 🙂
Who we may or may not have backed in the past is irrelevant, since we rejected realist foreign policy for the Bush Doctrine.
Like many Americans, I’ve been waiting to see this man captured and punished.
I think that’s another give away that moderateconservative isn’t really conservative…that’s what Howard Dean said in 2004…
I’m still waiting to hear from NeoLiberal if F-911 was “too soon”?
I’m still waiting to hear from NeoLiberal if F-911 was “too soon”?
That’s what I was wanting to ask. I’d like to know how many times he/she/it has seen it.
There is a differenc though. One film is based on reality, the other is based on the fantasies of crazy fat man.
“you are nothing but a hateful, bitter queen.”
ROTFLMAO – the pot calling the kettle black, or the mirror getting itself to crack – R-I-D-O-R!!!! 🙂
And by the way – Do check #49 again Ridor. I mean, because of your views that the U.S. deserved 9-11. 😉
Calarato, I never said the US deserved 9-11 — once again, you attempted to stuff words in my mouth. My point is that these Islamic terrorists did not just pop an idea and decide to handpick the US one day. There is always this cause and effect. But you refused to acknowledge that.
Attacking people that disagreed with your views probably proved the research that when you were little boy, you were ostracized by your peers. Of course, I expected that. Please keep going and insulting people with words, Calarato, if it helps making you feel better.
NeoLiberal, you’ve been saying just that all along — that the U.S. deserved 9-11 — in several of your posts. Why are you backtracking now? It’s just what we’ve heard from all the radical liberals, which is what you are.
The innocent civilians never deserved what happened to hem on 9-11 — some of them Muslim as well! As for Israel — Israel is as much as U.S. state as Oklahoma, or Kentucky, or New York. There are many Americans living there. Also, Israel doesn’t attack civilians as the Palestinians do. Get your facts straight, please!
“I doubt you’d jump in if I was in trouble — I honestly doubt so but thanks for the offer.”
NeoLib, you have just crystallized in one sentence why I am a proud gay conservative and not a shrieking liberal moonbat. I offer sincerity and compassion; you view it as just “talk” and pandering. You have been so brainwashed by your liberal contemporaries and their talking points that conservatives are so eeeeevil and so dastardly that you can’t take them seriously.
And thank you for proving my point – conservatives are compassionate people who help each according to their means, and liberals only look out for themselves. You just admitted that libs wouldn’t jump in to save me and you would also not be the first to do so as well. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
If there is a reason why libs and conservatives can’t get along, it is manifest in your declaration above. So go ahead and believe all the lies and hype. I’ll just continue to be true to myself and to others.
And BTW – the offer still stands. And if you are indeed “in the first line to attack,” I’ll have your back. Believe it if you wish.
Frankly, at this point, I’m not going to waste any more of my breath on the likes of someone who cannot see the difference between sincerity and pandering.
Regards,
Peter H.
Re: this fuck with me and I’ll kick your ass thing. We have here Holly Near v. Toby Keith. Let’s see … I think I’ll take Toby Keith.
PH, you are SO cute when you assumed that I am being brainwashed. You see, I live in a big city — in fact, the greatest city in the world, if you were in danger, I leave it to people to take care of it. Why should I bother unless it affects me? That is my attitude — please respect that.
LL, some Israelis attacked Palestinians. Don’t bother to lie about that. But mostly Palestinians did it. But when Americans allowed their gov’t to institute the unjust foreign policies on nations, Americans lost their innocence status. So you really can’t say that Americans were INNOCENT on that day. Even I’m not innocent.
But no, you wanted to keep it black/white — them bad, we good. This is the exact thing that Osama bin Laden wanted us to do — to classify two groups between good and bad as the means to pave the long-term war.
There’s your first problem.
Calarato, on the question of NeoLiberal being RIDOR, I don’t think it/he is… although if Bruce would post IPs that would make the matter much easier to certify.
RIDOR almost always went over the top in spewing silliness or hatred within 40 syllables; NeoLiberal hits that point after 115 syllables, on average. For a liberal, that’s some restraint. I do think it/he is duo posting as “conservativebut moderate” if that matters.
Second, NeoLiberal’s syntax is different than RIDOR’s. RIDOR’s was rift with myspeelings, reverst werds, and non-un-incomplete sentances. NeoLiberal doesn’t do that –it/he has at least completed 10th grade in a high school in the Midwest or the equivalent 5+ years of college in New Jersey. It/he should know better to advance the silly policy arguments intended to goad and inflame… RIDOR doesn’t know any better because he isn’t a hearie but a victim and we know hearies/non-victims have higher intellectual skills.
And I think I just did a double ad hominem attack. My bad. Very bad.
For further insight into NeoLiberal, see #53.
I was going by NDT’s attribution – Not that I care.
I agree NL is probably someone we’re familiar with, hiding behind yet another new pose.
Wow.
I saw this thread and was going to offer a bit of insight as one who has a rather unique view of the flight 93 events. Since a late start and a slow cab caused me to miss that specific flight by, at best, two minutes. No, i’m not saying my perspective is “better” than anyone elses, but it was the cause for much reflection and attempts at a deeper understanding of why we found ourselves in that situation that day.
In that case I was disappointed to find that the thread quickly turned into business as usual in blogland. Conservatives being painted as the next thing to Hitler, drawing our country one step away from a state like Iran, liberals being “moonbat” freaks, representative of every sexual deviancy the conservatives don’t like, etc. etc.
Just wondering guys, does it ever go beyond this? If what happened on Sept 11/2001 wasn’t enough to reframe the debates that never go anywhere but down the collective shitter, what exactly will it take? Or is calling each other out the point?
Take care,
Steve