Well said. I ditto that sentiment.

Underestimating the power of Osama bin Laden, as did the Clinton administration, is what got us into this mess in the first place. The same mistake won’t be made twice.

The “mistake” of ignoring Islamists terrorism, goes back to the Carter Administration, and has been a “mistake” made by every Administration up to and including the present Bush. Remember during his campaign in 2000 that focused so narrowly on missile defense systems? A focus that was in full display right up to 9-11. And what about Reagan and the bombing of the Beruit Marine Barracks? Or the wave of Airline hijackings in the 80′s? Including the torture and murder of US Sailor Robert Dean Stethem, in 1985? By the Hezbollah terrorist just released by the Germans on parole? And with the CIA under the Bush Administration, the Patriot Act, etc., that is so brilliant at kidnapping other German citizens who happen to be innocent, but can’t intercept this asshole before he disappears into Lebanon? Are you going to blame all that on Clinton too?

Why is it NDT that whenever you start your finger-pointing you leave out the GOP? They are not blameless.

______________

And as for, Caraloto etc., I hope you don’t think I ever lose any sleep over your little tantrums, you are just not that important in my life.

I have never been under any illusions that anything anyone writes here, whether from myself or someone else, has ever had the slightest possibility of getting through your politically rabid brains.

So fine, whatever, you are all absolutely correct in all your assumptions about me and everything and everyone and the Universe Itself. So go on now and bask in the glory of the self-worship of your own egos. Yes, I’m being a sulky little brat, now go suck on an egg or something.

I call it BDS (Bruce Derangement Syndrome).

Like NDXXX pointed out, you’re wrong on this one. And I’d add, but that doesn’t make much difference to you.

“In the real world, United States policy is systematically and genuinely AGAINST torture and in favor of handling enemy combatants (terrorists) humanely. Period.”

I see some kind of semantic games going on above about the meaning of the word “systematic” – and I say, forget those games. I’m not playing. Let their be no doubt about my intended meaning.

Opposing torture is a no-brainer. I always have.

The one proper or essential purpose of morality (or a moral code) is to guide human action. And the one proper or essential purpose of human action is to preserve and enhance human life. (I recognize no other terms.)

There always have been, and always will be, certain actions that one should never do because the action per se destroys the value of life (i.e., the reason for doing the action).

Torture, defined rationally as the intentional infliction of extreme physical pain and/or physical injury on another person, is one such action. Murder (leaving out necessary self-defense, military or police work here) is another. So is sex with children, selling one’s beloved, etc.

Unfortunately, Gryph and Andrew Sullivan do the opposite of defining torture rationally. In their hands, it’s a horribly plastic, shapeless term.

It would be bad enough if they stretched it (wrongly) to encompass appropriate (sometimes) techniques of manipulative or coercive interrogation short-of-torture, and stopped there. But they don’t stop there. They deploy the word, in practice, as if it meant ANY distress or discomfort, however slight, experienced by ANY enemy combatant in custody.

Why do they do it? The answer is above, in this very thread: So they can grandstand absurdly and feel superior, as Gryph has previously admitted he wants to do.

Now, I could ignore it if it were inconsequential. But: it isn’t.

Our troops and our people pay the price, as our enemies (hint: that’s al Qaeda in Iraq and other places) draw strength and encouragement from what Andrew Sullivan’s corrupt rhetoric – carefully echoed by Gryph on a pathetically smaller, but still public scale, and for the same corrupt motives.

I should not have to say this, but say it for the record anyway: In the real world, the United States has no systematic policy of torture. Period.

Gryph, just to showboat and make yourself feel satisfied or superior, you willfully misconstrue U.S. policies and practicies of terrorist interrogation, which are explicitly AGAINST torture. You are one sick puppy.

And I condemn you morally. Get it? Please consider that I have now just gazed at you calmly and spit on you, as you well deserve.

Now, about Gryph’s “crybaby post” (#41)… One of the paradoxes of the morally corrupt mindset is that they may (in some instances) seek desperately to clothe themselves or showboat in moral language, yet they cannot handle appropriate moral judgement of them, i.e., condemnation. Faced with it, they whine, etc.

Unless the left-wing appeasers have their way.

But it means they are all being educated.

Therefore, since you and yours say that torture is “systematic”, it means everyone is being tortured.

That you should even think the man could be so powerful speaks volumes about the anime or comic book fantasies that people use to think through this conflict.

There are two smoking holes in the ground in New York City, plus one on the side of the Pentagon and in a Pennsylvania field, that show quite differently. There are thousands of people dead, billions of dollars lost, and economic displacements that prove otherwise.

And that is all, mind you, from one attack.

Underestimating the power of Osama bin Laden, as did the Clinton administration, is what got us into this mess in the first place. The same mistake won’t be made twice.

Grow some grapes. If you’re going to come around sermonizing that it’s better for American soldiers to be killed than for terrorists to be subjected to physical discomfort … which is exactly what your position boils down to in the real world… than you should damn well be prepared to back that up with something more than “Stop picking on me, you big meanies!”

I think people like Pat have made it abundantly clear that there is room in this atmosphere for a variety of different opinions.

However, Gryph, you worked the spell that turned you into a “chupacabra”. I have given you a lot of leeway and support, which will still continue and will grow provided it is given reason, but you are way off on this one.

As for anyone here not contributing anything new out of fear is yet another example of the paranoia fostered by most on the left, and is a completely bogus conclusion.

As for being “third grade schoolyard bullies,” I’m afraid it is seldom the right that finds itself completely intolerant of dissent. However, I stand by the notion that while free speech welcomes dissent, it most assuredly does not abide outright bullshit.

Your post reveals your victim mentality, but do not deceive yourself into believing your continued posts here reflect some twisted notion of heroism on your part in the face of the “intolerant rightwingnuts.” You, Patrick, are the intolerant one here.

By the way, do you ever plan on having the courage of your convictions? I seem to recall you making a rather emphatic statement a while back about not bothering to read or post comments anymore.

Whatever happened to that idea?

A while ago, Heather McDonald did a good job of debunking the conclusion that you seem to think is incontestable that these the memos authorized torture.

We have made mistakes, but as in the case that where the Secretary of State apologized we acknowledged those mistakes. And where there has been torture — and yes, murder, those charges have been investigated and, where appropriate, the perpetrators have been prosecuted. So far no one has yet produced any evidence that our government authorized the torture.

Well said, Calarato in #21, Andrew used to not care what others thought. Now he seems obsessed with it. What happened to his even-handed criticism of the Bush Administration before 02/24?

But I will point out that all anyone has to do is to go back and compare the things I have actually written, to the things you accuse me of, to reveal your deceptions and lies.

I’m beginning to understand why it is always the same exact people who comment on this site. Who would want to contribute anything new if they know they are going to be instantly attacked and turned into some kind of Left-Wing Chupacabra by a bunch of third grade schoolyard bullies?

Bingo!

So, basically, Gryph doesn’t care if subjecting a terrorist scumbag to temporary physical discomfort will prevent an American soldier from being sent home in a body bag. So what if the soldier leaves behind a grieving family and children. I guess it’s more important that Gryph and his left-liberal “ahead of the curve” buddies can feel smug and self-righteous about respecting the human rights of inhuman beings.

“”It was an enormous mistake for us to try to occupy [Iraq] after June of 2003, …We have to pull back, and we have to recognize it.”

or is the guy who said this just another treacherous moonbat? See here for who it was:
http://tinyurl.com/k9hc2