What “reliable information”? The reports of media outlets like The New York Times? TIME magazine? CBS News? Do we really need to revisit the number of scandals and times of botched-reporting each one of these outlets have been involved in? Gimme a break. The Mudville Gazette and most blogs do not pretend to be journalists. They link to media articles and voice their opinions, that’s all. Fact of the matter is that there IS some backtracking from initial media reports on Haditha. How far this will go only time will tell. And you failed to answer the question: what of the maxim “innocent until proven guilty”? There is an important ending to that: “in a court of law” — not public opinion nor the media. Maybe these Marines are guilty, I do not know, but thus far there has NOT been evidence presented which is overwhelming in my mind. We shall see once the investigation is completed along with if it goes to trial.

Hello, Brendan! You there? If you’re a “troop supporter” why do you automatically distrust the point of view of military members?

And if you look at that web site and others such as Blackfive.net closely you’ll see that they, and very few if any, of their commentors are claiming the Marines are innocent. They don’t know. They are merely giving them the benefit of the doubt. The only thing you could possibly criticize them for is a failure to pre-judge.

Go back and follow up on Uncle Jimbo’s posts. The man taught close quarters combat… he might *maybe* just know what he’s talking about.

Or you could listen to Murtha…

Brendan the Brutus likes to taunt, likes to inflame and incite because in the world of Democrat Party Victimhood best practices, he learned early on that when his side can’t win on policy or debate… try to make your opponent angry so they’ll hopefully lose their cool, misstate something minor and then you can throw it back in their face… and declare victory.

It’s why 2/3rds of American voters mistakenly believe Sen Harry Reid leads the Senate… he’s the playmaker of that manuever. It’s incredible how shallow the Left has become; it’s a segment of the political system that men like Sen Phil Hart or Speaker Carl Albert or Scoop Jackson or Abe Fortas would not recognize today.

It’s the Party of Just Do No

Do one or the other. Impossible to do both.

When you choose the path of insult: don’t expect people to not notice. You’re sending out a giant signal at that point, “Insult me back – That’s the game I’m here for, even if I can’t admit it.” Take some responsibility for it.

If you choose discussion: then just don’t respond to people who you feel are on an ‘insult’ path. You’re here to discuss, right? Or?

Whether or not you admit it, you are here for one or the other. Decide.

This is for future reference. I’m done with you now, in this thread.

Either discuss, or insult. Impossible to do both.

When you choose the path of insult: don’t expect people to not notice. You’re sending out a giant signal at that point, “Insult me back – That’s what I’m really here for, even if I can’t admit it.” Take some responsibility for it.

If you choose the path of discussion: don’t respond to people who you feel have chosen the path of insult. You’re here to discuss (at that point), right? or?

Whether or not you admit it, you are here for one or the other. Decide.

Calarato, writing in capital letters as if that makes a nonsensical statement sensical is the equivalent of raising your voice when talking to a deaf person–it is dumb. I already told you why–to have political discussions with people I don’t agree with. .

If your words are true – If, in fact, the people on this site are as horrible as you claim – AND if you, by contrast, are worthwhile and rational – then you would have no conceivable reason for sticking around.

Get it? Something’s off. Either your words about how horrible and worthless and awful are the comments & people here are not true… or… you (Brendan) are pathetic for coming here. Which?

I must also note the fact that you are the master name-caller and, in that very clear example, you called Bruce personal names while he had refrained.

Yet now you want us to believe YOU are the victim of name-calling and “impatience” here. Whatever! LOL Way to take responsibility for your insults of others, dude!

As for Haditha: I gave five distinct citations from four separate sources, all of whom know way more than you.

How macho–”answer like a man”–is that from a John Wayne movie?
But more on point, why do I owe you an explanation as to why I visit a public weblog? But, I’ll answer anyhow. I am here to test your patience for rational debate. I do not deny that my politics are to the left and I disagree with almost everything posted here. But the site claims they want debate and yet almost every comment I make, the response is not debate but instead you, and others, resort to childish tantrums (“fucktard”, “libtard”, “Brutus”, “moonbat” etc. Or you respond with longwinded platitudes about patriotism-see above, patriotism: It’s like Truth. It’s like honor. It’s like duty.” I am sorry that is not an argument–it is a speech and not an especially effective one. Except for one occasion, I do not feel I have been rude or nasty and yet I get attacked. I will admit, it is a bit of fun to watch you all talk about wanting debate and see the reaction.

As for Haditha, well we have to wait and see. It still appears that most reliable information suggests that this was murder. Citing as proof, as you do, The Mudville Gazette–”the on-line voice of an American warrior and his wife who stands by him”–(love the loyal wife part) does not inspire confidence on where you get your information.

Murtha should be made to resign and forfeit his military badges/medals regardless of whether Marines are convicted of anything.

Murtha disgracefully pre-judged the matter for opportunistic political gain. Whether, or which, Marines turn out to be guilty (or none at all) won’t change that.

But another option, of course, is to help Diane Irey turn Murtha out of office. (Vets go here.)

First – #13 is still unanswered. Answer it like a man.

Second – if you want to accuse Michigan-Matt of wanting to criminalize dissent, say it. If, instead, you are going to cast vague aspersions, expect to get answers where I call bullshit on the vagueness – and, in noting my own role or views, where I say things like “I, FOR ONE” as I clearly did in #22. Comprehend that, OK?

Note that in #32 you do it again. You attempt to plant the snarky vague suggestion, “PEOPLE might be in favor of outlawing…” I call bullshit.

As for your statement:

“As for [Haditha] you appear to be wrong there, yet again. All reliable information suggests that civilians including children were murdered in cold blood.”

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! Wrong answer.

_Time_ magazine is slowly backing away from its Haditha story – one correction at a time. Their sources for the story are slowly unravelling. It hasn’t gotten to 100% yet, but – look for more to come.

Moreover, Brendan: Haven’t you heard of a little thing called America? As in, “innocent until proven guilty”?

You KNOW (or you yourself admit) that you have only heard one side of the story as yet. You KNOW there are always 2 sides to every such story. Why would you, like Murtha, so disgracefully pre-judge the matter?

It turns out that (1) the accused Marines were attacked (not working in cold blood); (2) the accused Marines have deserved reputations for steadiness and professionalism; (3) their accusers are essentially partisan, or provable liars in some cases; (4) the “rules of engagement” are crucially important to evaluating the case and may clear the Marines’ good names in the end – once we know their side of the story, that is!

You said: “No contrary evidence has been presented. ”

Indeed. And did it ever occur to you, Brendan, that that would be an excellent reason for you to NOT PRE-JUDGE the Haditha story? As in: Not judge it UNTIL the contrary evidence (the other side’s story) has been aired? Did that cross your mind for a second, before now????????????????

And Brendan the new Brutus can hold a towel to capture the ex-Congressman’s tears and sweat for the new museum of Anti-War Patriots and Human Shields Memorial that Pres. Hillary Clinton will have installed next to the VN War Memorial.

Murtha could make Kennedy or Boxer look like patriots.

It’s starting to come out now. Slowly. The military (unlike Congresspersons) won’t comment on an investigation that is not complete. They GET the notion that because of their individual positions that anything said will be taken as an “official” statement. The latest reports that I’ve seen is that the initial “they were killed in the explosion” report was not an accurate representation of the initial report from the Marines involved… but any report at any level, any statement, is considered pure scripture. The solution is to not make any until they’ve got the final version.

Hey, look what happened when they did a little bit of unofficial breifing of Congress members? Oh SURE they’re going to run right out there and do it some more.

The lack of counter information is proof of nothing. Yet the reporters push for denials and statements despite the fact that the military big-wig has explained repeatedly that he can’t comment until the investigation is complete. I suppose they are used to Congresspersons who feel free to spout of speculation and opinion without ever being held accountable for what they’ve said in the past.

Murtha is trusted by many and no matter what finally happens his words will be the version they believe. He will never be held accountable. If, in the end, the investigation finds that this was something less that cold-blooded murder and the execution style killing of children begging for their lives, those “believers” will still believe.

Because Murtha supports the troops by using the authority of his office to publically declare Marines guilty… and he wouldn’t *do* that without *proof*, right?

And they may be guilty. But if we find out that it wasn’t a cold-blooded slaughter watch for Murtha’s public apology and support for the military justice system.

It won’t happen.

You fail to comprehend there is a fundamental difference between polls which accurately (go look the word up since you don’t know what it means) measure the general American public’s anxiety over the course of the WOT in Iraq and disingenious, dishonest, disloyal commentary from the Left and most Democrats about “supporting the troops BUT NOT supporting the mission”. I know there were Democrats who voted to prosecute the WOT-Iraq; they voted for it before they spoke against it (sounds a little Kerry-ish, eh?) If polling indicated the majority of Americans supported the war’s prosecution, they’d be leaving Iraq alone and focusing on Katrina, Part Deux.

Patriotism isn’t something you get to put on and take off as the political winds suit your interests. It’s like truth. It’s like honor. It’s like duty. Smear or abuse it once, you don’t get to wear it again. How simple is that… it was the core issue in the 2004 race, Brendan the new Brutus. Kerry thought he could act with impunity and wrap himself in his faded (but still not released) war record and get away with it –hoping that the majority of Americans (clearly the majority of Democrats) would side with him that VietNam was bad, our troops disserved our country and that opposing it was right.

He was uniquely unpatriotic for a Democrat when he used his naval service to open the Democrat Convention with “reporting for duty” line. He, like many unpatriotic men, has no shame. Shame-honor; see the relationship?

Is the conduct of people like Sen Kennedy on the Senate floor celebrating Abu Ghraib Day unpatriotic? You bet: he demeans our military morale for cheap partisan gain.

Is the conduct of people like Moore, Sheehan, Soros, the Left Hollywood Cabal, the DemocratUnderground, Daily Kos and others working to undercut the troops and the mission unpatriotic? You bet: for the same reasons I noted above. Others here may not see it that way, but it is the little ankle-biting actions of a few sowing the seeds of discontent that ruin public support and injure troop morale.

The point of this post and others is to discuss how Democrats and the Left –along with selective coverage of untoward events in Iraq– intend to directly harm the Administration, the mission, and indirectly the troops’ morale while undercutting public support here and abroad.

Look to how the LATimes jumped to use the phrase “Pentagon Papers” in THIS war in order to harken back to the excesses of the 1960s… and dusted off Daniel Ellsberg for the connections to ring “true”. MyLai my ass.

Yeah, Brendan the new Brutus, speaking against the mission for the purpose of undermining public support for the war, undermining troop morale, or to use elements of the war’s prosecution for cheap partisan gain is unpatriotic.

The effort of people like Babs Boxer, seeking a Dec 31st troop withdrawl from Iraq, does undercut the mission. It does undercut the troops. It does harm public support of the WOT-Iraq.

For you to fail to understand that puts you in the same camp as most of the Daily Kossacks, the Democrat UnderGround ragers, and our enemies abroad seeking to discredit the Free World’s attempt to bring democracy to Iraq.

If you don’t support the mission, you can’t hold that you support the troops. It just doesn’t work that way unless your ass in safely located in an easy chair stateside.

A short recon of what?s out there that might draw your attention….

Did you read my original comment or as GP might say, “can you COMPREHEND”? I did not accuse you of anything. I pointed out, quite reasonably, (and without any reference to you) that references questioning the patriotism of those openly opposed to the war combined with support for statements about the foggy 1st amendment (comment #12) suggest that people might be in favor of outlawing such activity. Moreover, in respect to anti-war demonstrations the 1st Amendment is hardly “foggy”. Such activity goes to the core of what is protected.

As for Murtha’s disgraceful pre-judgment of the Haditha story, sorry you appear to be wrong there, yet again. All reliable information suggests that civilians including children were murdered in cold blood. No contrary evidence has been presented. I’ll grant you that is reasonable to criticize those who generalize from this incident to all soldiers, but to cover your eyes and pretend it did not happen is Right Wing Derangement Syndrome, (RWDS)—–since people here are qualified to offer psychiatric diagnosis I thought I would add my own.