This dishonest Democrat won’t have his wish fulfilled; Karl Rove will not be “‘frogmarched’ out of the White House in handcuffs.” Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald informed counsel to the top White House political aide, the man the far left most loves to hate (after the president himself), that he won’t be charged in the CIA leak case. (Via Powerline).
I guess it’s some consolation that he did get two standing ovations this past weekend at the YearlyKos convention.
I don’t think Rove knew Valerie Plame was the type of agent she was. I don’t think he knew about brewster-jennings or nuclear proliferation stuff she was involved with. I think he knew her and probably bought her cover: that she was wilsons wife and she worked at some agency. libby and cheney would have to have known.
i think they really heavily distrusted the CIA. partially because of the CIA’s slowness in going from commies to terrorists, but also because of the sort of wild ideas the neo cons had about the middl east, that saddam and al queda were all in kahoots and that all arab people wanted the united states to over turn their despots asap. I think cheney rumsfeld and Bush felt the neo cons must know what they are talking about. Meanwhile, those opinions were based on fantasy and ideology not reality. kind of like the great depression. “genius” speculation turns out to be not so smart.
plus, both cheney and the neo cons are crooks so they probably relate to each other on that level. all the big republicans are crooks or mental patients. tom delay, pat robertson, jack aabramoff. guys like ,say, trent lott are looked down as if they were squishy moderates.
This whole investigation is a total waste of time and taxpayer money.
Plus, I’m all in favor of canning all the bureaucrats at the CIA that are more interested in CYA politics than protecting this nation.
Bureaucratic Term Limits Now!!
Maybe Val should hide all of Old Joe’s purty, purty ties for while (if you know what i mean…)
it is a waste of time and money. whoever gave the name to novak should have came out and said so immedietly. that money should come out of Bush’s wallet, not the taxpayers. JENNA bush
lester, it’s all the more a waste because Plame was not an undercover agent.
Get with the times, man. That myth has long been debunked. Some All Washington knew she worked for the CIA. Wilson himself would introduce her as “my CIA wife”. Some CIA officials walk in through the main door at Langley every morning; Plame was one.
calorato- all the more reason they should have said who gave novak the name right away.
plus, that’s not even true. are you familiar with brewster-jennings?
Of course they should have said who gave Novak the name right away!
But with you lefties and your newspapers demanding legal charges / investigations – that was impossible. And still is. An open investigation automatically puts all questions in the category of “We can’t comment due to the open investigation”.
By the way – the most likely name I’ve seen for who “leaked” Plame’s open secret is Richard Armitage, who I believe was a State Department functionary of some type. BUT – could be wrong – we’ll see.
Changing gears – I’ve seen a lot of gloating posts in the blogosphere this AM. If you’re only going to read one, the best IMHO – for its incisiveness, as well as the author being the original inventor (I think) of the phrase “Plame kerfuffle” – is Taranto’s: http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/
lester proves the old adage to be true: Give any liberal 5 minutes and they can make themselves the fool.
Like most irresponsible liberals, lester moves right past Rove’s non-indictment –who lester’s political chums salivated over for the last 14 months– and jumps to Scooter Libbey and the Veep.
What a credible insight from the whacked out Left.
OK, let’s say lester is right: Vice President Cheney is a crook. One question for you lester… is that the Brooklyn Bridge that’s for sale hiding behind you?
The Left has no capacity for shame.
Hey lester, quick question for you: Where exactly does Karl Rove go to get back his reputation from the smearing hounds of the rabid Left press? Eh? No where is the answer you’re looking for, lester.
God spare this great Republic the lying jackals of the Left.
michagin matt- your internet republican accent is so thick I have no idea what you’re saying. Bush is at like 33 percent and widely chosen as the worst preident ever. Even conservatives are going to town on him over immigration. even ANN COULTER ended her column the other wek with “press one for english, press 2 for new president” . Why are you defending him. he sucks.
calorato- the investigation didn’t begin right away. there was plenty of time for whoever said it to come forward. This was a freebie for dems. they didn’t expend one bit of energy and it tied up Rove for the better part of a year, got libby indicted and scared the crap out of alot of others.
guys, stick to immigration. liberals will handle Bush / iraq/ PLame etc. seriously, know your role
#8: “Where exactly does Karl Rove go to get back his reputation from the smearing hounds of the rabid Left press? Eh? ”
Sully suggests South Carolina. đ At any rate, I doubt you were asking a similar question when O.J. was acquitted. Nor have any of you YET apologized to Hillary Clinton for the outlandish claims made in the press about her and Whitewater. No indictment there either and that pervert Starr spent a lot more money than Fitz ever will. And who knows maybe Rove just decided to sing like that old canary Novak. I also hear that the Wilsons may now pursue a civil case against Rove. Rove testifying against Scooter will be interesting to watch.
plus, thatâs not even true. are you familiar with brewster-jennings?
Sure am.
Are you familiar with how pathetically obvious it was that said company was fake?
The fact that you considered Valerie Plame, a woman who had been unceremoniously yanked back to the United States in the early 90s because the CIA was virtually positive that her identity had been revealed, to be a “covert operative”, working for a company that a ten-year-old with an Internet connection could have discovered was fake, speaks volumes for the fitness of leftist liberals like yourself to handle intelligence.
We won’t even get into how stupid it was for her to send her husband on official business for the CIA — which he TOLD the people he was interviewing in West Africa — if she could even remotely be considered “covert”.
Valerie Plame was “covert” after the fact — when the little plot by her and her fellow Democratic hacks to send her husband on a mission destined to fail (the man went around telling people he was there for the CIA, but expected them to tell the truth about uranium sales?) as revenge against the Bush administration for demanding that they actually get off their butts and WORK was revealed for what it was.
Exactly. Plame may have been deep cover in the early 90s, but became known (to other intelligence agencies) back then. Ever since, the CIA has apparently kept her on “routine ultra-light cover” (my phrase), meant only to deceive average citizens and nutters.
none of which explains why whoever said her name to novak didn’t just come out and say it. Stop making excuses! Bush said anyone involved in this is out.
also, you guys can lie to yourselves all you want. this case is being tried in a court by a judge. THEY will decide libby’s fate. the right and left wing media have no say.
plame-ologists here. like you know what some random CIA person was doing in the 90’s.
Does Rove get a standing ovation when he attends the MAL parties? (or perhaps that might be a whack with a paddle or cat-o-nine tails)
Markos at DailyKos and Aravosis at Americablog must have had heart attacks over this. I don’t really care for Karl Rove but it’s a shame he can’t sue the likes of DailyKos and Americablog for libel. That would be a step toward recovering his reputation.
You gotta love the Beloved American justice system eh?
I tuned in Chris Matthews to see how sincere his apology would be to Rove. And to see if he’d admit that 90 days worth of nightly shows on the Rove cabal was a waste of air time. But nope. He’s actually hysterical, bouncing off the walls with a guy from Slate. It’s priceless!
What a week for the left. Losses bloody losses.
#9. lester….wrong, the leader of the free world’s poll ratings are skyrocketing today. Are you glad? Does it make you smile?
lester at #9 writes “I have no idea what you’re saying…”
Right, that’s been clear since you started commenting here, lester. You don’t have a clue, dude. I didn’t say anything about Pres Bush –even if he is in his 2nd term, son of another President from the last century and brother of likely yet another 21st C president… and uncle to another 21st C president… and so on and so on. And where are your beloved Kennedys? Drying out, hitting the drunk tank, taking uncle Teddy for a ride ’cause his license is suspended in Massachusetts, Washington DC, Maryland, Florida and Illinois right now… more states pending.
Nawh, I didn’t mention Bush’s poll numbers, lester. I was talking about Rove –the subject of this thread and Dan’s post.
Here’s the coloring book version for you: liberals were salivating about a Rove indictment… Chris Matthews, Jon Stewart, and Keith Obermann were salacious in their hunger for a Rove indictment… along with Pee-lousy, WeScream4HowieDean, HustlerReid, and the other idiot icons of the Left. Rove not indicted? Rove no longer a target? Rove is cleared by Fitzgerald –a prosecutor known for being a hard-ass, passing every single liberal Left Democrat Senator’s litmus test when he was announced as lead prosecutor… so, lester the fair, where does Karl Rove go to get back his reputation?
You say in liberal talking points parrot-speech, not cleverly I add, South Carolina.
Actually, you’d probably prefer Gitmo for Rove. No punishment is too great for the man who made mincemeat out of your Party’s best two candidates of this century. You got trounced fairly by better campaigners –twice I might add– and it still pisses you guys off.
Well, lester. It’s over for you. Rove is staying. He’ll be high in the consultancies for countless GOP Congressional, gubernatorial and other races; he’ll remain crafting Bush’s message. By 2008, he’ll be rich beyond measure. Unlike your junkyard dog Jimmy Carville, Rove won’t have to marry to make ends meet… oh, right, you and the other idiots at BlogAmerica think Rove is gay.
And when he’s called to the witness stand by Libbey’s counsel, guess what? He’ll be talking to the judge helping Scooter fight the wrongful charges labored by Fitzgerald’s crew. Scooter’s walking, too, lester.
So, lester the fair, where does Rove go to get back his reputation that was smeared by your ilk in the liberally biased, BushHating MSM? Where?
Maybe the best place is to return to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and kick some more Democrat butts into the growing pile of has beens like Gore, Daschle, Podesta, et al.
Yeah, that’s where he should go.
lester, you’re a joke when it comes to informed opinion and you don’t even know it.
Ian S at #10 writes (I hope not with a str8 face) “Nor have any of you YET apologized to Hillary Clinton for the outlandish claims made in the press about her and Whitewater.”
Go ahead, Ian S, name a single outlandish claim made about Hillary Clinton either before or after the critical files from the Rose Law Firm went missing and then appeared magically in the Executive Mansion after Starr threatened to bring search warrants to bear on the Presidential living quarters at 1600.
Go ahead, Ian S –a single outlandish claim made in the MSM media about Hillary Clinton’s corrupting role in the Whitewater land specualtion scam. One, Ian S… and in a single instance.
LOL
#13 – lester, that’s the type of response that shows you in plain “I’m not listening… la la la la la la” mode, making it not worth answering you.
The things you insist are unanswered WERE fully answered in the thread, but you can’t or won’t listen. Bye now.
#19 – Matt, I have to be honest – I still find the whole “Hillary ordered Vince Foster’s murder” thing very outlandish – and said so at the time.
On the other hand – this isn’t one of the places I’ve ever heard the allegation (except once, from one commentor) so, no win for Ian in that.
#15: “I donât really care for Karl Rove but itâs a shame he canât sue the likes of DailyKos and Americablog for libel.”
Well, I suppose he could, but trust me, Rove would never wnat to be put on the witness stand under such circumstances. As it is, he may still have the Wilsons’ civil suit to deal with. I think they’ve just been waiting for Fitz to finish with him.
#22 – What – you’ve had a video camera installed in Rove’s bedroom all this time?
No Ian, I don’t think I’ll “trust you” to tell me the real story with Rove. LOL đ
And quite honestly – I hope the Wilsons do sue him, because they are the malicious liars and frauds in all this, and their partisan / fraudulent shenanigans deserve to be exposed under cross-examination (or counter-suit).
#19: “a single outlandish claim made in the MSM media about Hillary Clintonâs corrupting role in the Whitewater land specualtion scam.”
They were ALL outlandish especially the one about her having an affair with Vince Foster then killing him. ALL of that was reported in the MSM and yet after tens of millions of taxpayer dollars, there wasn’t a SINGLE indictment against Hillary. Ever. Not. One.
So, if you’re wailing about Rove’s “reputation” and demanding an apology, you really should first apologize to Hillary Clinton.
*cough* ButHusbandIndictedByHouseOfRepresentativesForActualPerjury*cough*
#15: âI donât really care for Karl Rove but itâs a shame he canât sue the likes of DailyKos and Americablog for libel.â
Rove can sue. Anyone can file a lawsuit. But the likelihood of Rove winning a libel suit is between slim and none. Not because what the websites published might not have been false, but because of NYTimes vs. Sullivan. From the syllabus:
Factual error, content defamatory of official reputation, or both, are insufficient to warrant an award of damages for false statements unless “actual malice”–knowledge that statements are false or in reckless disregard of the truth–is alleged and proved.
Rove is a public figure and he would also have to leap the “actual malice” standard.
Ian S at #24 writes: “So, if youâre wailing about Roveâs âreputationâ and demanding an apology, you really should first apologize to Hillary Clinton.”
Ian S, I didn’t ask for an apology; from you or anyone else in the liberally-biased MSM or from any smear-fest Democrat. I would never presume to think an apology was possible because, for the most part, in order to apologize those parties need to be able to comprehend SHAME.
They can’t. You can’t.
Back to your claim that Mrs Clinton was maligned in the press with outlandish claims about the Whitewater land speculation scam. You point to Vince Foster’s suicide and relationship with Mrs Clinton as proof of the outlandish and absurd.
The topic you raised was her conduct in the Whitewater land specualtion scam, Ian S, and the need for an apology to poor Mrs Clinton. Not Vince Foster. The Whitewater land speculation scam, Ian S.
Stay focused, on topic. Try again, Ian S.
#11 North Dallas Thirty â June 13, 2006 @ 5:14 pm – June 13, 2006
Are you familiar with how pathetically obvious it was that said company was fake?
Your article from the Boston Globe is moderately interesting, but I wonder.
(i) Do you have any reason to believe that operatives of foreign countries would have been surveilling the building that housed the B&G Boston office as described in the Globe to find out whether the company was fake?
Otherwise stated, would you really believe that foreign operatives would be surveilling offices of all US-based companies that operate in foreign countries to determine whether or not they are fake. If you don’t believe that, why would you believe that they (foreign operatives) would be sniffing around the offices of this particular front operation?
Of after the information was published in the Globe, anyone, even foreign operatives, would know that the operation was fake. The issue, however, is what would be reasonably expected before the publication.
(ii) Do you have any whether other CIA front operations have similarly situated and outfitted “front offices”? If those kinds of “front offices” are usual, or even common, for CIA front operations, one would be led to the belief that the CIA believed that such front offices were sufficient for their security needs. Or, possibly, that they were incompetent. As to the former, query how many other of the CIA’s foreign operations were compromised by maintaining such front offices.
BTW, the Boston Globe is part of what you all would refer to as MSM. I had been led to believe that you all were skeptical of reporting by the MSM. Or do you believe their reporting only when you believe that it suits your needs?
#27: “The Whitewater land speculation scam”
Oh yes, and remind me again which of Hillary’s non-existent indictments resulted from that investigative fiasco. And for your information, an investigation of Vince Foster’s death WAS a part of the whole “whitewater” fiasco conducted by Starr http://tinyurl.com/h55le :
“Foster’s death became part of a broad investigation of President and Hillary Rodham Clinton’s financial dealings in Arkansas when Whitewater records were discovered to have been in his office six months after his death.”
Otherwise stated, would you really believe that foreign operatives would be surveilling offices of all US-based companies that operate in foreign countries to determine whether or not they are fake.
Absolutely.
You see, Raj, you’re talking about people who are quite familiar with the tactic of using front companies themselves for espionage or other activities. I would be more surprised if they weren’t, especially with the CIA’s notoriety for doing exactly that.
Furthermore, Valerie Plame was the wife of a US diplomat. In the foreign services, that is virtually waving a red flag daring them to investigate you.
Ian S, as proof you provide an Washington Post editorial-parading-as-news piece?? Damn, you are lame. Well, at least it isn’t a Wiki cite anymore… you’re progressing but at a snail’s pace.
No Ian S, both Riske and Starr offered that Vince Foster was NOT part of the Whitewater land speculation scam investigation and Starr said, within 3 days of Foster’s announced death, that it was a sad end to a troubled, depressed man and he hoped that out of the suicide more co-workers and family members would be better attuned to the dangers of depression in colleagues, parents, friends.
Go smoke it, Ian S. It isn’t doing you any good this day.
A WaPo cite. Goodness.
I know it’s a long way from Joe Wilson’s troubles in not being able to visualize Karl Rove in handcuffs exiting the ExecOff Bldg, but Ian S brings up a good point: how come the MSM didn’t criticize the Clintons and the Democrat WH for intervening in Vince Foster’s suicidal depression? I mean, Frontline or PBS or Bill Moyers sure would have done an expose on that angle alone if it had been a GOP senior staffer serving in a GOP Administration.
And back on topic: the thing I haven’t ever understood is the GayLeft whackoes (Dan Quayle spelling) on GayDemocrat sites were falling over themselves with allegations and accusations that Rove was gay… just like they did with Chief Justice Roberts during the hearings. Several even implored readers to ferret out some pics of Rove if they caught him in afterhour bars in DC or knew of male escorts Rove used.
Does that mean that GayDemocrats are homophobes? Or is it just that they are sick and twisted in not sensing that to allege someone is gay is to discredit them? Don’t they get it?
It’s like Alice in Wonderland sometimes for the GayLeft; they just can’t help themselves.
#31: “Vince Foster was NOT part of the Whitewater land speculation scam investigation”
Actually, he was http://tinyurl.com/qvbch:
“Vincent Foster, a Little Rock law partner of Mrs. Clinton, represented the Clintons in the buyout of their Whitewater shares.”
And BTW, you still haven’t provided any information on any indictments of Hillary Clinton that resulted from the Whitewater investigation.
Rove’s name only appeared in this case like a year ago when laurence o donnel said it on the mcglaughlin group. Before that no one had any clue who the leaker was. But again, the work on this was done by the independent prosecuter, not “the democrats” . That the president was relieved by this news shows what a sorry excuse for a president he is.
catalano- no you stil haven’t answered why whoever leaked the name didn’t say so right away. Also, Bush still has an obligation to fire rove and cheney, both of whom were obviously involved in the leak. If he is a man of his word.
Rove ‘s reputation is gone. as is libby’s. they will be remembered as traitors. like their boss
#34: “you stil havenât answered why whoever leaked the name didnât say so right away.”
You’re unlikely to get an answer to that. Perhaps Ken mehlman can FAX him some talking points.
“Also, Bush still has an obligation to fire rove and cheney, both of whom were obviously involved in the leak.”
Technically, I don’t think he can fire the VP since he is a separately elected official. As for Rove, Bush should fire him but I can understand the logistical problem in trying to fire his own brain.
“If he is a man of his word.”
Now, now, that’s a bit snarky don’t you think? đ
No, lester, the president has no obligation to fire anyone. If you check what the president said, it was about firing lawbreakers, for illegal leaks. And Fitzgerald has indicted no one for such leaks.
Meanwhile the left heralds as a hero, Joe Wilson, a man who misrepresents the findings of his own mission, but it’s the same left who honors Michael Moore, a man celebrated for his deceptions.
gaypatriotwest- I don’t know that wilson or moore are “heroes” to me personally, I just want to know who leaked the name. the woman was working on WMD, specifically Iran. Was it really necassary to bring her into a story about her husband? particularly when tenet had already apologized for the line being in there? If so, why didn’t cheney or rove or whoever say so in public?
“No, lester, the president has no obligation to fire anyone. If you check what the president said, it was about firing lawbreakers, for illegal leaks. And Fitzgerald has indicted no one for such leaks.”
clinton-esque parcing and you know it.
#36: “If you check what the president said, it was about firing lawbreakers, for illegal leaks.”
No, both Bush and his official spokesman said the leaker would be fired and there was no qualifier regarding the law having been broken.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200606130012
Um, lester, given that Wilson’s wife got him his posting to Niger — and he lied about that, so, bringing her in was relevant.
Ian S, you should know by now that media matters is about as reliable a source on the president as Pat Robertson is on “homosexuals.”
You can rant on and on (and on and on) about this, but you’re the ones parsing the issue — and moving the goalposts because even an overzealous prosecutor, after months of investigation, could find nothing on which to indict Rove.
In any case, even Novak has said that Rove was not his source on this matter. And that was the article that got everyone all in a tizzy.
You guys lose this one and you just can’t let go.
Joe Wilson is a liar and the left cheers him. Karl Rove may have his faults, but he’s an honest man who hasn’t broken any laws and the Left treats him like a devil. It all makes me laugh.
#30 North Dallas Thirty â June 14, 2006 @ 4:22 pm – June 14, 2006
You see, Raj, youâre talking about people who are quite familiar with the tactic of using front companies themselves for espionage or other activities. (Emphasis added.)
I’ll thank you for the link to the WaPo article about Putin, but it really is completely inapposite to the question that I had posed. Did you do a google.com search using keywords “front company” and come up with the link?
The WaPo article indicated that, while Putin was in St. Petersburg, there was apparently fraud in the sale of same state assets, and that some front companies siphoned off a significant portion of the receipts from the sale. Yes, people do know how to set up front companies for other activities–committing fraud. But that wasn’t what B&G was set up for–it was set up as a cover for foreign espionage, a very different kind of activity.
Moreovere after the fraud in St. Petersburg was completed, the front companies completely disappeared. No trail, no office. How is that in any way similar to the B&G situation, in which the offices were apparently in the Boston building for at least the time required for the covert espionage operation?
You are really straining. Try again.
Furthermore, Valerie Plame was the wife of a US diplomat.
I make the rash presumption that you know how to follow a timeline. Just when was it publicly known that Plame was the wife of a US diplomat? We know that it was publicly known that Plame was the wife of a US diplomat by the time of the publication of Novak’s column, and so it is publicly known now. But what evidence do you have that it was publicly known before then? The important issue is when it was publicly known, not that it is currently publicly known.
#39 GayPatriotWest â June 15, 2006 @ 3:31 am – June 15, 2006
Um, lester, given that Wilsonâs wife got him his posting to Niger â
Um, not exactly–although I will admit that “got him his posting” is terribly ambiguous.
From FactCheck.org:
February 12, 2002 â The Defense Intelligence Agency writes a report concluding âIraq is probably searching abroad for natural uranium to assist in its nuclear weapons program.â Vice President Cheney reads this report and asks for the CIAâs analysis. (Senate Intelligence Cmte., Iraq 38-39, July 2004).
Responding to inquiries from Cheneyâs office, the State Department, and the Defense Department, the CIAâs Directorate of Operationsâ Counterproliferation Division (CPD) look for more information. They consider having Wilson return to Niger to investigate. In the process, Valerie Wilson writes a memo to a superior saying, âMy husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.â One of Valerie Wilsonâs colleagues later tells Senate investigators she âoffered up his nameâ for the trip. Wilson says that her agency made the decision and she only later approached her husband on the CIAâs behalf. (Senate Intelligence Cmte., Iraq 39, July 2004).
The Wilson-Plame-Novak-Rove Blame Game
It appears that the agency made the decision to select him for the mission, not Plame. BTW, I’m sure that you are aware that more than a few people get considered for jobs and other postings because of recommendations from people “whom they know.” It’s not unusual. So I’m surprised that anyone would get all in a tizzie at the fact that it happened here, as well.
…and he lied about that….
Oh? Where? I’ve read Wilson’s NYTimes article several times–reproduced here, and could find nowhere where he even discussed how he had been engaged. To support your claim that he lied, please provide citations–I have found that that is oftentimes anathema around here–preferably to original sources.
#39: “you should know by now that media matters is about as reliable a source on the president as Pat Robertson is on âhomosexuals.â”
Hey, they have the quotes with exactly what the President and McClellan said. I remember hearing Scottie myself and thinking that he was really painting himself and the Administration into a corner with his statement.
Am I that surprised that Bush won’t keep his promise? Not at all. He’s a proven liar. This is just one more dishonesty to add to the pile.
#41: “more than a few people get considered for jobs”
I would just add to raj’s discussion that Wilson was not paid for his trip to Niger. Bush apologists always seem to forget that point when they yap about how “Plame got her husband this job.” Some job – an unpaid trip to one of the poorest countries in Africa.
“Um, lester, given that Wilsonâs wife got him his posting to Niger â and he lied about that, so, bringing her in was relevant.”
how? the article was about Uranium in Niger, not Joe Wilsons biography. If thewy had relevent information about wilsons CLAIMS they shuold have made them. Of course, they couldn’t because they were for some insane reason, using widely debunked documents as evidence.
In subsequent comments to the media, Wilson insisted that his wife did not get him his posting.
It’s amazing we’re still having this discussion, given that it’s nearly two years since the Senate Intelligence Committee discredited Joe Wilson. If he were a conservative, he would have been escorted off the public stage and heralded only by fringe groups.
But, then again, when you’re criticizing George W. Bush, you don’t need any facts. And what was once the left-wing fringe sometimes seems to be becoming the Democratic mainstream.
“But, then again, when youâre criticizing George W. Bush, you donât need any facts.”
so conservatives who disagree with bush on immigration don’t have facts? I disagree. I think they have a strong case.
Wilson was not discredited by any commitee ever. Do you believe Niger was in fact trying to sell uranium to Iraq? Wilson goes over the impossibility of this in his book, which also includes a incredibly boring account of how the uranium mines in Niger are run.
Raj, your spinning is amusing, but utterly pointless.
This was clearly stated in the article:
Vladimir Putin looked for East Germans who had a plausible reason to travel abroad, such as professors, journalists, scientists and technicians, for whom there were acceptable “legends,” or cover stories.
The legend was often a business trip, during which the agents could covertly link up with other spies permanently stationed in the West.
Next up:
There is little information about Putin’s specific tasks in Dresden, but specialists and documents point to several assignments, including recruiting and preparing agents. The work likely involved Robotron, a Dresden-based electronics conglomerate, which was the Eastern Bloc’s largest mainframe computer maker and a microchip research center.
At the time, a major KGB effort was underway to steal Western technology. The Soviet Bloc was so far behind, according to a German specialist, that agents at Stasi headquarters often preferred to work on a Western-made Commodore personal computer rather than on their office mainframe.
The presence of Robotron may have provided Putin with legends for sending technicians to the West, or for recruiting Westerners who came to East Germany from such large electronics companies as Siemans or IBM. Putin may also have been interested in military electronics and intelligence about NATO from informers in the West.
In other words, Putin, for one, is QUITE familiar with the process of using business channels — and misleading “trips” or “business activities” — for espionage purposes.
Your spin is nothing more than a coverup for your idiotic statement that foreign intelligence services do not vet US businesses to make sure they aren’t operating as fronts for espionage. You were presented facts that prove convincingly that you are wrong, and instead of owning up to it, you tried to misrepresent what an article states.
As for your last attempt:
Just when was it publicly known that Plame was the wife of a US diplomat? We know that it was publicly known that Plame was the wife of a US diplomat by the time of the publication of Novakâs column, and so it is publicly known now. But what evidence do you have that it was publicly known before then? The important issue is when it was publicly known, not that it is currently publicly known.
Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame were married in 1998. Aside from the fact that marriage records are public information, the fact of their marriage has been published publicly in Who’s Who since 1999.
Add to that the fact that the woman had been unceremoniously yanked back to the US in the early nineties because the CIA had information that showed her name had been leaked to foreign intelligence agencies.
“Covert”, my foot. If she was “covert”, then that explains a whole hell of a lot about why our intelligence agencies were so pathetic.
Now, to Lester’s attempt at a point, Wilson’s words himself:
The mission I undertook was discreet but by no means secret. While the C.I.A. paid my expenses (my time was offered pro bono), I made it abundantly clear to everyone I met that I was acting on behalf of the United States government.
Understand the particulars:
— Uranium is one of Niger’s only sources — if not the primary source — of foreign currency. Minus it, their economy would likely crumble.
— Selling uranium without approval is illegal in the first place. Selling it to a regime that is under sanctions PREVENTING it is doubly so.
— If it were to be found out that Niger was selling uranium illegally, or especially that it was selling it to banned countries, the repercussions would include punishing economic and political sanctions that could collapse the economy AND the government, and, likely, trials of officials under international laws.
So now you have Joe Wilson coming in, screaming that he is working for the US government, and asking Nigerian officials, whose lives and livelihoods would be destroyed if anyone found that they were selling uranium illegally, if they were selling uranium illegally.
“Foregone conclusion” is not sufficient to describe the result.
Meanwhile, this was done at the behest of the CIA, including at the recommendation of a group including his wife. Why would the CIA send someone on a mission where what he was doing would virtually guarantee that he would find nothing?
Because the CIA wanted contradictory evidence, even if they had to create it themselves using flawed methods of investigation.
Has anyone considered that the CIA may have covered up Niger’s sale of yellow cake uranium to avoid the continuing (and likely ongoing) embarassment of intelligence lapses or lack of intelligence on the Agency’s part? Perhaps Wilson was really over there just for more CYA.
#47 North Dallas Thirty â June 15, 2006 @ 3:47 pm – June 15, 2006
You apparently do not know what a front company is. A front company is a company that is set up and controlled by by another operation, such as as a corporation, a criminal organization, an intelligence operation, a banned organization, or the like, that is engaged in activities that they would want not to be identified with.
None of the organizations (including Robotron) whose personnel Putin tried recruit, were front companies. Putin did not set them (the organizations) up, nor did he control them. They were existing organizations at the time that Putin arrived on the scene. He filtered the personnel of those companies to try to find employees that he determined might have been of use to him in his espionage activities.
That is far different than the case with the CIA and B&G. CIA set up B&G specifically to as a front to engage in activities with which CIA would not want to be identified with. The organizations that Putin was involved with had on-going operations, as anyone could tell from looking at their facilities–there was nothing about the facilities to be hidden. B&G, on the other hand, had no on-going activities other than spying, and, apparently, their offices were bare. Those are crucial distinctions between the two situations, as I’m sure you will understand.
I won’t repeat the question. You’ll find it above.
Regarding
Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame were married in 1998. Aside from the fact that marriage records are public information, the fact of their marriage has been published publicly in Whoâs Who since 1999.
I’ll put it a bit more concretely, when was it publicly known that Wilson and this Plame, that is, CIA agent Plame were married? Your WizBang link–to an entry in a Who’s Who book (hence largely unsearchable) copyright 2002?–does not indicate that she might be anything other than a housewife.
When I lived in Washington DC in the mid-1970s, I did a little search in the phone book and discovered that there were 15 other people listed with my same first and last names, and many of them had at least the same middle initial.
Try again.
#48 North Dallas Thirty â June 15, 2006 @ 3:55 pm – June 15, 2006
You aren’t seriously contending that Niger would agree to sell uranium to one country (Iraq) merely because they needed the foreign currency are you? That’s plain off-the-wall. One, Iraq’s currency was dinars, and if Niger had started floating dinars on the currency market–assuming anyone would buy them–that would set off a red flare that something was going on between Niger and Iraq. Two, I would be surprised if Niger could not have sold its production on the open market to companies or countries that were approved by the IAEA, and achieve–um–usable foreign currency.
From what I have seen, with most mineral extraction concessions (which is what Niger’s probably was–a concession), the concessionaire does the extraction, whatever processing is needed, finds and ships to the buyer, and pays a fee or royalty to the entity that granted the concession. It is the fee or royalty that would provide Niger the foreign currency.
And the concession grantor would not get involved in determining who the buyer was–that would be the reponsibility of the concessionaire. That is another reason for believing that the documents that purported to show that Niger–the concession grantor–were fake.
Try again.
raj baby writes above: “… You (NDXXX) arenât seriously contending that Niger would agree to sell uranium to one country (Iraq) merely because they needed the foreign currency are you? Thatâs plain off-the-wall. One, Iraqâs currency was dinars….”
raj baby, were you fast asleep when the liberating troops uncovered suitcases and suitcases of US and Brit money inside vairous Saddam palaces?
A Bulgarian ex-KGB agent informed the Italian appeals court in 2000 that the Iraqis often required French and German contractors to pay bribes in US and Brit currencies… the appetite was so strong.
No, raj, Iraqi diplomatic terrorists didn’t use dinars… they used US and Brit currencies when they were operating outside Iraq to subvert the Free World.
Where as bin Laden is reputed to have favored German currency for his international intrigue before getting forced into cave-dwelling by the US… no surprise there. Germans were fluffing his pillows while he trained terrorists to hit European targets as long as they were’t German targets.
None of the organizations (including Robotron) whose personnel Putin tried recruit, were front companies. Putin did not set them (the organizations) up, nor did he control them. They were existing organizations at the time that Putin arrived on the scene. He filtered the personnel of those companies to try to find employees that he determined might have been of use to him in his espionage activities.
More desperate spin, Raj?
Now you’re insisting that the KGB and the Stasi had no control or influence over the activities of an East German company and that Robotron had absolutely zero knowledge of what Putin and his Stasi counterparts were doing.
And now, Raj, let me remind you of what your original statement was concerning Plame’s identity:
Just when was it publicly known that Plame was the wife of a US diplomat? We know that it was publicly known that Plame was the wife of a US diplomat by the time of the publication of Novakâs column, and so it is publicly known now. But what evidence do you have that it was publicly known before then?
You see, Raj, you tried to lie and spin that it wasn’t known that Joe Wilson was married to Valerie Plame, and you got caught. Now you’re trying to change the rules to cover up the fact that you made a stupid statement.
I have conclusively proven that a) intelligence organizations other than the CIA use front companies and thus are aware of them for counterintelligence purposes and b) Valerie Plame was known publicly to be Joe Wilson’s wife for FOUR YEARS PRIOR to her alleged “outing”.
You simply lack the spine to admit that you were wrong when you tried to insist that neither was the case.
north dallas- unfortunately, you have no idea how the niger uranium mines work. Wilson does. You are just supposing. In fact, the mines are controlled by other countries by and large. and the IAEA is invloved too. I’m ont dodging your point when I see it really is pretty hard for them to sell Uranium to Iraq. Wilson made one example where the only way it could be possible would be if one boat sailed out to see, put the several tons of uranium on another boat somehow and then came back. It’s like more or less impossible
LOL….Lester, you may wish to think before you speak again.
In fact, the mines are controlled by other countries by and large. and the IAEA is invloved too.
The mines are controlled by the Nigerian government. They are OPERATED by a consortium of companies headquartered in other countries that serve at the pleasure of the Nigerian government.
Thus, you must explain to me how these companies would jeopardize their lucrative contracts by going back on the orders given them by the Nigerian government.
Furthermore, please remember that the IAEA, via the UN, was regularly bribed by Saddam to overlook his malfeasance.
Again, please explain why you would expect that these officials that Wilson interviewed would tell him the truth about Nigerian uranium sales or inquiries by Saddam, especially since doing so would jeopardize their positions, their economy, and quite possibly their lives.
#52 Michigan-Matt â June 16, 2006 @ 11:01 am – June 16, 2006
raj baby, were you fast asleep when the liberating troops uncovered suitcases and suitcases of US and Brit money inside vairous Saddam palaces?
Oh, so, even if true–and yes, I had read of the allegations–how much US and British currency can be contained in “suitcases and suitcases”? And, if Saddam really had been able to procure uranium from Niger or even from other countries, just how much would he have had left in those “suitcases and suitcases”?
#53 North Dallas Thirty â June 16, 2006 @ 12:17 pm – June 16, 2006
Now youâre insisting that the KGB and the Stasi had no control or influence over the activities of an East German company and that Robotron had absolutely zero knowledge of what Putin and his Stasi counterparts were doing.
Go back and read what I wrote. (I recognize that you are rather sloppy at reading, but that’s another issue.) Robotron was not a front company. Neither was it a “fake company,” to use your term. Robotron was a company that had been set up by the East Germans in the early 1970s to manufacture copies of IBM S/360 computers. It was apparently fairly well known that the plans for the IBM S/360 computer had been stolen by the East German government. From your WaPo article, Putin arrived at Dresden, home of Robotron, a decade after Robotron was founded. So, what evidence do you have that Robotron was a front company?
Robotron still exists, by the way. Silicon Saxony: One eastern German state is working hard to create an economic miracle of its own But I’m sure that you knew that.
Regarding:
You see, Raj, you tried to lie and spin that it wasnât known that Joe Wilson was married to Valerie Plame, and you got caught. Now youâre trying to change the rules to cover up the fact that you made a stupid statement.
Oh, so you have no response to my question, as modified. Figures.
I have conclusively proven that a) intelligence organizations other than the CIA use front companies and thus are aware of them for counterintelligence purposes and b) Valerie Plame was known publicly to be Joe Wilsonâs wife for FOUR YEARS PRIOR to her alleged âoutingâ.
Actually, no you haven’t.
(a) As noted above, you haven’t shown that Robotron was a front company; indeed, far from it.
(b) Yes, the fact that someone named Valerie Plame was married to Joe Wilson in 1998 was (presumably) available in the public records, but that hardly means that it was publicly known that someone named Valerie Plame was married to Joe Wilson. I hate to tell you that the “someone named” was the whole point of my comment regarding finding a number of people with the same name as mine in the WashDC telephone book when I lived there in the mid-1970s.
The point is that you, like the proprietor of the WisBang web site, apparently are unable to distinguish between (i) the fact that Wilson was married to someone named Plame, and (ii) the fact that Wilson was married to that particular Plame. That was the point. And, so, what is your evidence to indicate that Wilson was married to that particular Plame in 1998? To coin a phrase, hindsight is 20/20.
#54 lester â June 16, 2006 @ 4:31 pm – June 16, 2006
north dallas- unfortunately, you have no idea how the niger uranium mines work. Wilson does. You are just supposing. In fact, the mines are controlled by other countries by and large. and the IAEA is invloved too.
The Niger uranium mines are managed by a consortium that comprises companies from several countries, not including Niger itself. If–as is likely–it follows the usual pattern for mineral extraction, the consortium is a concessionaire of the Niger government, and pays royalties to the Niger government based on the uranium sales. See my #51.
One other point. If it were discovered that uranium from Niger had been diverted to Iraq, it is likely that the Niger uranium production would have been either shut down or more heavily scrutinized. Niger–or more specifically the consortion comprising the concessionaire–would have nothing to gain by diverting uranium to Iraq, even if Iraq would have been willing to pay a substantial premium.
So, what evidence do you have that Robotron was a front company?
The article which clearly states that Robotron employees or those traveling for Robotron were, in several cases, foreign agents engaged in espionage under the auspices of the KGB.
You again insist that Robotron had no knowledge of this and that the KGB and Stasi had no influence whatsoever on it.
Besides, in the first place, you categorically denied that other intelligence agencies had ever done such a thing and stated that no foreign intelligence agency would ever investigate a US-based company to determine whether it was operating in a similar fashion.
Yes, the fact that someone named Valerie Plame was married to Joe Wilson in 1998 was (presumably) available in the public records, but that hardly means that it was publicly known that someone named Valerie Plame was married to Joe Wilson.
First you denied that the fact that Joe Wilson was married to Valerie Plame was a matter of public record.
Now you try to argue that a) that information was not publicly known despite it being in national publication and record and b) that foreign intelligence agencies would be too stupid to figure it out because there was even a remote possibility of there being other “Valerie Plames”.
Keep going. I can hardly wait to see what comes next.
Oh, so, even if trueâand yes, I had read of the allegationsâhow much US and British currency can be contained in âsuitcases and suitcasesâ?
Saddam had plenty.
And, if Saddam really had been able to procure uranium from Niger or even from other countries, just how much would he have had left in those âsuitcases and suitcasesâ?
Saddam received billions of dollars annually via the UN’s “oil for bribes” program and channeled hardly any of it to anyone other than himself.
Furthermore, do you have the faintest clue how much uranium costs? Around $44/kg.
Even assuming HE had to pay $100/kg because of the risks to the supplier, he could still get his hands on 1,000 kg for a mere $1m.
Great job, NDT, Matt and GPW.
This thread shows as clearly as any other the degree to which raj, lester, etc. are intellectually dishonest and irresponsible. But, these days, so many visible/public leftists are intellectually dishonest and irresponsible to an insane degree. It is up to the sane people to keep reminding the world to come back to facts and sanity.
Calarato, I echo your sentiment only it was Dan and NDXXX that laid it out… and held the Left accountable for lies, spin, half-truths, etc.
But you’re right, intellectually dishonest is how I’ve called their tactics in the past… like in a recent exchange with raj baby… first, NDXXX suggests that Iraq would buy yellow cake (oh, my, can you just imagine that?) and then raj offers -with what? Iraqi dinars; they were worthless.
Raj knew all along that his retort was hollow and dishonest, but to whittle away at NDXXX’s central claim wasn’t do-able so he decided to go after a small fact on the side and try to punch it down, raise suspicion, create doubt… like Democrat debaters. Then raj baby is called on the point and he says, well… ok, but then provokes another misdirection by suggesting it would take a Titanic of suitcases to buy yellow cake… ergo, impossible to do.
No, it ain’t that expensive and you don’t need that much… end of game for raj baby… wait, he’ll play the exact same game elsewhere.
Over and over it goes; like any 1-L student can tell you –those who can’t debate policy with integrity will try to appear to do it with spin and lies… James Carville has made a fortune doing exactly that.