Eleven years ago as the city of Dresden, Germany commemorated the fiftieth anniversary of one of the most controversial Allied actions of World War II — the firebombing of that city, posters were plastered across the onetime Florence on Elbe, showing a picture of the city in ruins with the caption, “Dank Hitler,” thanks to Hitler. While the British dropped the bombs which leveled the city, it was Adolf Hitler who was ultimately responsible for the city’s ruin. And for the deaths of the 35,000 civilians killed in that raid.
Similarly, while Israel may be dropping the bombs on Lebanon this week, it is Hezbollah which is responsible for the destruction of Lebanese infrastructure and the deaths of Lebanese civilians as well as the terrorists whom Hezbollah houses in residential neighborhoods. By crossing an international border and murdering and kidnapping Israeli soldiers, Hezbollah started this war, just as Hitler started World War Ii by sending troops across an international border.
Given Israel’s response to Hamas’ kidnapping of an Israeli soldier in sovereign Israeli territory near the Gaza Strip, Hezbollah’s leaders should have known how Israel would respond. Israel has every right to defend itself. And as long as Hezbollah uses Lebanese airports, roads and bridges to transport munitions to attack the Jewish State, they become legitimate targets.
That Hezbollah would station its terrorist followers and their military equipment near civilians shows what little regard they have for human life. Indeed, by demanding hundreds of prisoners for a handful of Israeli soldiers, they show that they recognize that Israel, like other nations of the West, places a higher premium on human life than do they.
By violating international boundaries and kidnapping Israeli soldiers stationed in Israeli territory, Hezbollah and Hamas have declared war on Israel and they alone are responsible for the consequences. Let us hope that fifty years hence, citizens of a democratic Lebanon and Gaza will post pictures of the current destruction with the Arabic equivalent of “Dank Hezbollah and Hamas.”
UPDATE: Best of the Web ‘s James Taranto agrees with me: “Every civilian death, on either side of the border, is regrettable, but the ultimate blame for them falls on the aggressors, namely Hezbollah and its patrons.”
Historical context: Dresden was firebombed, the first date, on February 13, 1945. There were fewer than 90 days left in the European Theater of WWII.
A strong military argument can be made for the atomic bombing in Japan, less so the military need for firebombing Dresden.
Hitler, yes. There is, however, as they say in baseball, an asterisk.
Agape.
I agree with you, Dan. I just hope, however, that Israel’s retaliation doesn’t jeopardize the fragile democratic government in Lebanon.
I sometimes wonder, if Isreal never existed, or was blown away into oblivian- would the Middle East STILL not find a reason/excuse to self destruct? All my life I have only heard of “Middle East Unrest”…”Middle East Unstable”…”War in the Middle East”. Maybe they all should just get over themselves? Yeah, I know: how trite. Or how tired…I know I am of all this. And I’m not talking about peace-love-holding hands. These countries have such great potential- yet throw it all away. That is what is so frustrating.
A few questions come to mind here because this seems like a script which has been played out to such a degree that no one should be surprised with how anyone is acting or reacting.
So, is Hezbollah testing Olmert? Or are they attacking Israel, knowing full well what the reaction will be, in order to wratchet up the “Islam vs the West” conflict now that there is turmoil in Iraq and Iran is turning its heat up? And is Israel, wanting to protect it citizens, falling for the bait by the severity of it’s response??
Just some thoughts.
Israel is doing what it must do in Lebanon. But a victory in over Hezbollah will be temporary and fleeting unless Israel and the West finally face the fact that the source of the problem ultimately lies in Teheran and Damascus.
Most Western elites, particularly those on the Left, refuse to openly acknowledge what is becoming increasingly evident : Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza and Lebanon are all becoming parts of the same conflict, even if the terrorists themselves are not coordinating their efforts. Civil society cannot take hold in Iraq because of the insurgency, which like Hezbollah, is being supported supported by Iran and Syria.
Unless this two-headed monster is dealt with, the Iranian Hitler will continue to supply the recruits and the money, and Syria’s Assad will provide the safe-haven, the transportation and additional money for the terrorists in Lebanon and Iraq.
Eventually, probably sooner than later, the regimes in Damascus and Teheran must either be overthrown internally, or, a wider war is all but inevitable.
Some very interesting and valid points.
Israel is not targeting citizens. WWII was an all out war, and Germans civilians paid the price eventually. How about the civilians of Russia, Poland, France, etc? The bombing of London? These all preceded Dresden, so I don’t know that such sympathy for Dresden is warrented. In retrospect I suppose the bombing of Dresden could have been avoided, such is the philosophy in being a Monday morning quarterback.
WesternImperialist makes some great points.
As far as I’m concerned, Syria’s Assad and Iran’s mullahs are all a few cards short of a full deck. And I worry that they, and other Moslem extremists, would like to trigger all-out war between Islam and the Western democracies (far broader and more intense than the war launched by Islamic terrorists). What then really scares me is that Europe, perhaps with the exception of Britain, will go AWOL and leave the fight to us.
I concluded 6-7 years ago that nobody in the region wants to do what needs to be done to achieve peace. A pox on all their houses.
And the United Nations should be bombed to smithereens for their proposals to divide the League of Nations’s British and French protectorates as they did following WWII.
the probalem isn’t hezbollah or hamas. the problem is Israel. It is a failed state. They’ve never had a moments peace and they never will. it may have seemed like a good idea at one time, but it is no longer feasible. It needs to be dissolved. There should be one state: palestine. and i don’ mean “dissolved” like nuked I mean the jewish state has to end. the international need for this is apparent in the newspaper every day.
You want to destroy the only functioning democracy with the only laws protecting gays and the only truly western outlook.
Thank you for being the first Leftist posting on this site to tell the truth of what you really want.
Um…#10’s link brings one to a site with a sub heading of “anti-state,
anti-war, pro-market”.
How does that make it a “Leftist” posting?
Thanks to lester for giving me my first laugh of the morning. Israel as a failed state! Very good. Really, compared to all those stand-up regimes throughout the Muslim world…I’m still laughing. Thank you.
And by the way, big kudos to Dan aka GPW, for his energy! Not commented in a long time but do read regularly. His creativity is prodigious and his fortitude admirable.
I wouldn’t catagorize Lester’s position as singularly “leftist.” It is a position shared by extremists on both the Left (Norm Chomsky) and the Right (Pat Buchanan). I have seen strong support for Israel in the middle, left and right.
I would suggest to Lester a reading of Alan Dershowitz’ “A Case for Israel.” It is a great classical liberal defense of the nation.
In “Palestine,” the only discussion of gay rights is whether gays have the right to be crushed under rocks, thrown from tall buildings, or drowned in human waste. How self-loathing do you have to be if that’s the side you pick?
#14 — Apparently, there has been a lot of fantasizing on DailyKos about eliminating Israel, one diarist even going so far as to agree with Ahmedinejad about wiping Israel off the map. (Does Joe Lieberman’s campaign know about this?)
Also, many on the left (and far-right) are in denial about the threat of radical Islam, and they think they can appease it: “Let them have Israel, and then they’ll leave us alone.” These are the same type of people who were saying “Let Hitler have the Sudetenland, and then he’ll leave us alone,” three generations ago.
Right on, V the K. You hit the nail on the head.
Regards,
Peter H.
the problem is Israel. It is a failed state. They’ve never had a moments peace and they never will. it may have seemed like a good idea at one time, but it is no longer feasible. It needs to be dissolved. There should be one state: palestine. and i don’ mean “dissolved” like nuked I mean the jewish state has to end. the international need for this is apparent in the newspaper every day.
In what way do you think that we no longer need Israel?
There have been Jews living in the region of the modern state of Israel for the past ~2000 years. They have frequently been expelled or killed for their troubles (as have all Jews all over the world…one branch own family came to the US after being forced out of Russia/Ukraine/Romania). Where would they go if there was no Israel?
Before the creation of the modern state of Israel, there were hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews living all over the Middle East…all of whom were expelled (and had their property stolen) and had to find refuge in Israel. Where would they go?
Jewish survivors of the Holocaust moved to Israel in its early days. More recently refugees from Russia (and other former Soviet Union states) and Ethiopia (and other African nations have moved to Israel. Where would they be without a safe nation?
A mere 60 years after the Holocaust, France (and other European countries) experienced a spate of synagogue firebombings and other anti-semitic activities, making those countries feel less safe. If Jews there feel the need to leave for their safety, where would they go without Israel?
And don’t try to claim that a ‘Palestine’ would do anything other than try to get rid of the Jews. We’ve seen enough evidence to know better.
Do away with Israel? Now we know why the “lester” name used to link to a Muslim website.
Acurate post DinaFelice, except that Jews have been living there for 5,000 years, not 2,000. 😉
This is the first post from Lester you’ve read, Gene? Be obtuse if it helps.
Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Islamism, Progressivism. Each one endures or awaits its humiliating defeat and destruction. All of it from the hand of the U.S. (with incredible help from Isreal and lesser help from the Anglosphere).
They’ve never had a moments peace and they never will.
Not as long as your Islamo-fascist buddies are around, moLester.
It always amazes me how liberals cheer on those who will strap a bomb to women and children to kill the innocent civilians that they pretend to give a damn about.
Definitive Proof: The New York Times is on the side of the terrorists.
“Incredible Courage” my ass.
It seems we’ve heard the same stories, watched the same pictures, learned about the grizzly details over and over… year after bloody year. I used to think that the Middle East simmering on the brink of war was just a reality of this age… repeating other ages.
But there is hope.
When I consider the sectarian war in my ancestors’ Ireland and how I used to hear the old ones in our family dismiss any new peace initiative there as “it will matter not, the only way those people know is a life of bloodshed” and to live to see the terrorist thugs in the IRA disbanded… to see the liberal morons in Boston bars like the Black Rose collect their last plate of blood money… I think, well, maybe there is hope for Middle East. Maybe evil doesn’t have to triumph.
But we need a jump start. A bold initiative. Not another Camp David summit. Let’s take it outside govt and farm the solution out to the whining, second guessing Left.
I suggest we immediately ship –in legs irons if needed– the self-appointed “world leader and humanitarian” JimminyCricketCarter to Gaza to help sort things out on the ground. Call it a perp walk for some of his pronouncements since leaving office.
No troops –’cause the military is useless, homophobic, raping monsters to the Left. No guns– we know liberals think only bad people own guns.
Just give him a handful of our best diplomats and politicans… MaddieAlbright, Osama Barack, SandieStuffYourPantsBerger, maybe LyingJoeBiden and a few others. TeddieK can drive once they’re on the ground… PaddieK can navigate around the cement embankments. Momma Moonbat CindyZero can pass out cookies… the Dixie Chicks could have a concert of healing… hell, let DanRather do the on-the-spot documentary to catalogue the success. AlGore can handle the weather forecasts.
The Left’s success will be a perfect counterpoint to the “failed” CowBoy Diplomacy of America’s President GWBush.
(Look around… anyone on the Left chanting “Wheels up. Wheels up”?)
Historical context: Dresden was firebombed, the first date, on February 13, 1945. There were fewer than 90 days left in the European Theater of WWII.
A strong military argument can be made for the atomic bombing in Japan, less so the military need for firebombing Dresden.
Firebombing, perhaps not. Yet heavily bombing Dresden was appropriate. It was a legitimate military target given its significance as the largest “fortress” left in eastern Germany, a large railway hub, and its military industry.
I highly recommend Frederick Taylor’s well-researched book on the subject entitled Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945.
thatgayconservative- well I don’t think I’m a islamo fasisct or a molester, but don’t you think that there will always be islamic extremists around? most muslims i know have never accepted israels right to exist. whether they are moderate or crazy or whatever. I agre with ahmadenejad, if europe felt bad about the holocaust they should have made given the jews part of europe.
dine felice- palestine has been largely arab for about 1800 years. there was I think one jewish empire there for like 40 years or something. as far as the jews needing israel, there are way more jews around the world than israel. Some jewish people at the end of my street jus moved to israel. I don’t think they were persecuted here. there are tons of jews here on the east coast. many of them wuite wealthy, In fact in most of the oscieties jews were persecuted in they were among the wealthiest, nazi germnay for example.
also, the jews of russia nad the ukraine aren’t semites. not that i’m a stickler for that sort of thing. but they converted around the time of charlemagne. they have no actual connection to the middle east other than a spiritual one to jeruselem.
Israel is a UN mandated jewish Crusades. and we know how those went. Theres no law against not being a zionist.
DinaFelice — July 15, 2006 @ 4:23 pm – July 15, 2006
If Jews there feel the need to leave for their safety, where would they go without Israel?
Well, they could go to the United States. More than a few of them have, including the Sephardic Jew who constructed our kitchen here in Massachusetts, and designed and build the desk that I’m working on now. Amazing handworker. He decries what has happened in Israel, primarily the discrimination by the Ashkenaz Jews from Europe against the Sephardic Jews, and the discrimination by the “mind-workers” (mostly Ashkenazi) against the “handworkers” (mostly Sephardic Jews) in Israel.
That said, I concluded long ago that neither Israel nor its neighbors really want peace, and as far as I’m concerned, a pox on both their houses. A long-standing complaint against Israel has been the Israeli “settlements” primarily on the West Bank (but also in Gaza) and the “security” infrastructure that the Israeli government has implemented to protect them. The Israeli settlements and “security” infrastructure began on the West Bank shortly after the 1967 war on prime land that they took from the indigenous peoples, and has broadened since 1967. As long as the Israelis continue the “settlements” and “security” infrastructure, there will be no peace in the region. The Israelis may very well rue the day that they implemented the “settlement” policy.
I confess myself increasingly pessimistic that secular liberal culture has what it takes to defeat Global Jihad. It seems many are all too willing to stand down in the face of radical Islam in order to protect their personal politics. Eurabia is dying of multi-culturalism. Andrianna Sullington did a complete 180 on the war as soon as the administration turned against his precious-s-s-s-s issue of gay marriage. And then there’s lester, for whom the extermination of five million Israeli Jews is a small price to pay if he gets to go to the bar again.
I begin to wonder if anything other than reinvigorated, fundamentalist Christianity will save the West from the Islamist horde. If that turns out to be the case, the liberal secularists who were so willing to sell-out and appease the Islamo-Fascists will have no one to blame but themselves.
#24 V the K — July 16, 2006 @ 9:22 am – July 16, 2006
A link to LittleGreenGoofballs? Give me a break. I stopped going there years ago after it became obvious that they were a bunch of nut-cases. Any idiot can set up a web site and Charles Johnson (I believe that’s the name of the turkey who runs the site) has proved that. He may make some money off the site if he can find enough idiots to whom he is pandering to send him some money.
Well, raj, you prove once again that ignorance is no barrier to expressing a strong opinion.
I take it also, raj, that you find nothing whatsoever disturbing in a NYT photographer taking pictures of an insurgent sniper as he shoots at Americans? Just as you apparently find moral equivalence between Israelis and the Pali-Nazis who strap on bombs to go blow up their schoolchildren? Just as you are apparently untroubled by lester parroting Nazi propaganda about Jewish wealth?
You, and people like you, are a major reason the secular left lacks the backbone to stand up to radical Islam.
I think Israel is making a mistake in the severity of its response, but what they are doing is appropriate over all. Its not just the kidnapping and murder of its soldiers. They have been getting rockets from Lebanon for years, and have had to watch Hezbollah continually solidify its positions on their borders with little hope of the Lebanese central government being able to reign in them in. Even if it wanted to.
But the truth is that Syria and Iran both want this conflict. Which is the real reason it is happening. Not because of Israel. And those that complain about Israel for its “militarism” should think long and hard about what Syria and Iran would do if they simply had the military capacity to carry out their aims. And has Israel used its nuclear arsenal? Iran and Syria wouldn’t hesitate to bomb Israel with nuclear weapons if they had them. Regardless of the millions of Palestinians they would be wiping out in the process.
I did not say anything about exterminating five million jews. I wouldn’t want to harm a hair on one israelis head.
#26 John — July 16, 2006 @ 10:31 am – July 16, 2006
I highly recommend Frederick Taylor’s well-researched book on the subject entitled Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945.
I’m not sure that I would give a lot of credence to the opinions of a British historian on the matter of the bombing of Dresden less than four months before the end of WWII. Particularly since the British government has apparently consistently refused to declassify its classified documents regarding the event more than sixty years after it occurred.
also, the jews of russia nad the ukraine aren’t semites. not that i’m a stickler for that sort of thing. but they converted around the time of charlemagne. they have no actual connection to the middle east other than a spiritual one to jeruselem.
Then what connection do the Arabs have to much of the Middle East and North Africa? None except by one of conquest. You see most of those lands were not Muslim, but were Christian until Muhammed’s successor spread the faith by the sword.
Israel is a UN mandated jewish Crusades. and we know how those went.
Quite swimmingly at first, despite the setbacks. Unfortunately they didn’t succeed in the long-run. Of course you wouldn’t know that being fed the pablum in public school texts which ignore the fact that the Crusades were really an act of defense: taking the war forced upon Europe by the Muslims into their backyard.
I’m not sure that I would give a lot of credence to the opinions of a British historian on the matter of the bombing of Dresden less than four months before the end of WWII. Particularly since the British government has apparently consistently refused to declassify its classified documents regarding the event more than sixty years after it occurred.
Of course not, he’s British so he must be bad. The actions of the British government have nothing to do with this author. Read the book, he’s actually quite fair.
#16, #19 –
The left-wing and Islamo-fascist fantasizing come down to one thing: Eliminating the world’s only Jewish state.
The world has several Christian states (note the U.S. is NOT one, nor in the slightest real danger of becoming one); many Muslim states, some of them Islamo-fascist; nearly a Hindu state; some Communist (yes, it’s functionally a religion) states; some secular-liberal states. But only one small Jewish state.
As a rule, I DON’T believe in any State establishing a religion.
But there’s no way in hell that Palestinian Jews would be treated fairly if they were living in anything other than a Jewish State. No way. They would be oppressed, expelled and/or slaughtered. Anyone who claims otherwise, doesn’t know (or isn’t being honest about) real Arab-Muslim history.
Thus, under the existing state of the Arab/Muslim world: calls for an end to the Jewish State are functionally calls for the oppression, expulsion and/or slaughter of Palestinian Jews per se.
There is no way I can avoid the conclusion that that is anti-Semitic. So, yes: the people calling for an end to Israel (or “imagine a world without it”) are, in fact, anti-Semitic.
John in #26, thanks for your comment and your link. As it took me longer than I had expected to track down the link confirming the “Dank Hitler” posters (I had to go to Washington Post archives as my google search was unsuccessful), I wanted to note there was recently some serious discussion about whether the British used excessive firepower in firebombing Dresden, with some saying they acted appropriately, given the circumstances of the war.
and lester in #27, there has always been a Jewish population in what is now Israel. Indeed, most demographic studies show that Jews were the largest single group in the territory for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries. The UN Partition Plan recognized this, but left some areas with substantial Jewish populations, including Hebron, under Arab control.
#32 V the K — July 16, 2006 @ 11:09 am – July 16, 2006
I take it also, raj, that you find nothing whatsoever disturbing in a NYT photographer taking pictures of an insurgent sniper as he shoots at Americans?
Ah, you must have adopted NDXXX’s favorite tactic of changing the subject. Aside from the fact that this does not appear to have anything to do with the post or with what I have commented on, I have no idea what you are referring to. I’m sure that you can provide a link. Not to a blog, of course, but to original material.
Just as you apparently find moral equivalence between Israelis and the Pali-Nazis who strap on bombs to go blow up their schoolchildren?
Aside from the fact that Israelis haven’t done a whole lot to avoid mayhem against the indigenous peoples in the Occupied Territories in their “security” operations there, or in their current bombings in Lebanon, quite frankly, regarding your idiotic “moral equivalence” clap-trap, I don’t find it particularly useful to argue about “moral equivalence.” That is about as dumb as suggesting that one should argue about “moral equivalence” in the Hatfield vs. McCoy feud. Just how far back do you want to go when arguing “moral equivalence”?
If the oil ticks spent their billions building housing, educational systems, and opportunities for the PPP instead of funding rockets and suicide belts, the situation might be different. But since they and their Palestinian Puppets care only about killing Jews, I’ve got nothing for them.
Israel goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. It’s not their fault that terrorists use women and children as human shields.
No party in this age old conflict seems to seriously want peace…they all want victory. This is an area of the world that seems to thrive on “grudge” mentality. “You did this to me so I’ll do this to you…” going back to to ancient biblical times. (My partner claims this stems from Sarah [Isaac] / Hagar [Ishmael] incident in the bible and will never be resolved)
Isreal has every right to defend itself, particularly as it is surrounded by nations that want it’s extermination. I wonder, though, how their security is served by declaring war on the people of Lebanon for the actions of an outside group in their territory? Are there any reports of anything being done to work with the legitimate government (who had recently begun serious moves away from Syrian domination) to undermine or reign in Hezballah? Either by Isreal, the US, or other outside parties?
Lebanon allowed terrorists to overrun their country, and by doing so, brought this on themselves. Sixty years of diplomacy have resulted in nothing but more terrorism and more Arab hate.
Diplomacy does not work.
Good Question #42…
I’d welcome the legitimate governemnt of Lebanon seek to communicate with Isreal and the rest of the world regarding it’s involvement with Hezbollah or are they able to?
It seems that Hezbollah is in control of the nation.
Bush: “See, the irony is, they need to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it’s over.”
Video here (h/t Michelle Malkin): http://www.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-bush_170706,00.html
I’m not sure who ‘they’ is. (Israel? Iran? French/Russian diplomats?) And I hate how he’s pompously chewing with his mouth open. BUT – I’ll give him a giant pass, for nailing the situation in one comment.
Golda Meir’s oft-quoted statement, “We will have peace when Arabs love their children more then they hate us,” nails it completely.
Right now, the Palestinian way of showing love is to strap explosive belts to their children and to send them to man rocket batteries.
But, since it’s anti-American and anti-Israeli, Raj and his fellow European leftists can’t help but support it.
Besides, what do you expect the Euro-puppets to do? Italy and France between the two of them take 40% of Syria’s exports, the bulk of which is petroleum. France has no problem with blood, as long as they can continue to get their oil cheap.
All the more reason to knock the Baathists out of Syria.
The irony is that France, while holding themselves up to be Lebanon’s best friend, have been arming Hezbollah and Syria the whole time. Then, what do you expect from cuthroat euroweenies?
NDXXX, you are right on. Golda’s own autobiography warns explicitly against the creation of a so-called “Palestinian” state, stating the obvious – “it would result in a base for terrorists to destroy Israel.”
Oh, and Really Annoying Jerk – since you have a penchant for having quotes verified, notarized and copied in triplicate, it is on page 172.
Also – her best quote is saved for those El Fatah and Black September idiots who demanded that Israel relinquished the Gaza/West Bank territories “seized” in the Six-Day War and withdraw back to the pre-1967 border: “If these lines are so sacred to the Arabs, why was the Six-Day War launched to destroy them?”
Goldele, chavera, we miss you. You were the original “Iron Lady.” Shabbat shalom (and I’m not even Jewish).
Regards,
Peter H.
I understand “a pox on both their houses” is the official Kos position on the current situation. Little surprise then that the wannabes on this forum are parroting the talking point.
If anyone had the opportunity to catch Lebanon’s PM on the news circuit today, he was snarling mad at Israel –and the West. When asked about the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, the PM got indignant and said “I’ve spoken for years about palestinians held in Israeli prisons, kidnapped by Israelis in the middle of the night, and gotten no where. No where.”
As if to say Hez/PLO terrorists captured inside Israel are the moral equivalent to military service officers kidnapped and taken out of their country for God knows what.
BdaK at #50 writes: “I understand “a pox on both their houses” is the official Kos position on the current situation. Little surprise then that the wannabes on this forum are parroting the talking point.”
Imagine that! Radical Democrat talking points showing up from the GayLeft here? LOL –thanks for putting in it writing, though. I can now rest easier knowing that the DailyKos and the DailyShow have a narrow, impotent following.
I am waiting for raj and lester to deny that Nazi Germany murdered 6,000,000 Jews. But the day is young.
Nazis and Jews? A pox on both their houses!
By my comment in #3 I do not wish to convey (by how this thread has developed) that I support the destruction of Isreal. I was attempting to state my feelings that Islam will look to any infidel : the West, USA, you and me, etc. as an excuse to wage war (to them at least; I call it the biggest, bloodiest temper-tantrum in history) on anyone they can blame. Until we hear the thump-thump of a gay bar in Iran (goofy, I know, but you get the point) I will never believe Islam is a religion of peace. We are in the midst of WWIII; and it is a religious war. It is just nobody seems to want to say it out loud.
#53 Trace Phelps — July 17, 2006 @ 6:05 pm – July 17, 2006
I am waiting for raj and lester to deny that Nazi Germany murdered 6,000,000 Jews. But the day is young.
I’m not sure what this has to do with the subject matter at hand (Hamas and Hezbollah), but don’t bother holding your breath waiting for a denial from me.
Perhaps you would like to tell us what your post has to do with the subject matter at hand. I really do understand that the wingnuts try to change the subject.
BTW, the Nazis and their Anhaenger did not only murder Jews. They also murdered more than a few gay people, something that more than a few right wingnuts wish to sweep unterm Tisch. Indeed, after the concentration camps had been liberated during the war, surviving gay people were turned over to German civil authorities (which had been set up by the Allies, of course), for internment in German prisons. The allied powers weren’t exactly nice to gay people who had languished in and yet survived the Nazi concentration camps.
Sorry, raj, to take so long to respond; even ‘tho my Grandfather and I own the family firm I still am busy in the office all day. As much time as you spend during the day reading blogs and commenting, I hope you are self-employed and don’t “work” for a firm owned by other people.
My question about Nazis exterminating Jews is not off the subject. The original topic of GPW’s post was terrorist attacks on Israel. You and “lester” often sound like you have chips on your shoulders about Jews and both seem reluctant, here and in response to other posts, to condemn Islamic terrorism. So, raj, I was just curious — blame it on my past life as a nosey journalist — how you and “lester” feel about prior efforts to rid the world of Jews.
#57 Trace Phelps — July 18, 2006 @ 9:35 pm – July 18, 2006
To address your last question first.
So, raj, I was just curious — blame it on my past life as a nosey journalist — how you and “lester” feel about prior efforts to rid the world of Jews.
I do not purport to speak for the commenter “lester,” since I am not that poster. In response to your rather direct–and thank you for being direct–question as far as I’m concerned, any efforts to rid the world of Jews is stupid. Use whatever word you want–reprehensible, horrible, idiotic, an abomination, a whatever-you-want. I prefer stupid
The original topic of GPW’s post was terrorist attacks on Israel. You and “lester” often sound like you have chips on your shoulders about Jews and both seem reluctant, here and in response to other posts, to condemn Islamic terrorism.
Apparently, you have failed to read my posts. Condemn terrorism by other indigenous peoples–whether or not they are Islamic (it may surprise you to know that some 40% of the population of Lebanon are not Muslims)? Well, yes. Condemn terrorism by Israelis*? Well, yes, too. You apparently failed to understand the point of my comment (here or on some other thread) in which I opined “a pox on both their houses. The fact is, which you apparently wish to ignore, is that this feud between Jews and non-Jews has been going on for a very long time, has more than a few bases that none of them over there appear to want to achieve reconciliation, and, so, as far as I’m concerned, a pox on both their houses. (Note to Matty: I used that phrase in 2000-2001, which, on information and belief was long before DKos came along. Edicate yourself.)
On the issue of a “chip on my shoulder” about Jews, please let’s understand. I would love to have all the Jews in Israel migrate to the US–even the orthodox Jews who apparently merely want to sit about and read the Torah all day. Why wouldn’t I want to have an infusion of highly educated people come to the US? I could expound about the laziness of Americans regarding education and training, but I’ll refrain.
But to have the US continue to support a regime that isn’t particularly interested in doing what needs to be done in order to achieve peace over there? With my tax money–which largely goes to buy weaponry from US “defense” contractors” that is then shipped to Israel (as is not atypical of US “foreign aid”). Sorry, no.
*Lest it pass your notice, I refer to Israelis as Israelis, not as Jews. For a very specific reason. Only some 80% of Israelis are Jews, some 20% are non-Jews, most of the rest are Muslims, but there are also some Christians. I could go on and on about the religious make-up of some of the countries in the area, but that would take too long.
But to have the US continue to support a regime that isn’t particularly interested in doing what needs to be done in order to achieve peace over there?
Because “what needs to be done in order to achieve peace over there” is for all the Jews to die.
Israel withdrew from Gaza, and from settlements on the West Bank in return for promises from the Palestinians to cease the violence. Instead, the violence against Israel intensified. Israel did what was demanded of them by the global community. What have the Palestinians ever done to demonstrate a willingness to live in peace?
But, hey, hard truths are no match for easy moral equivalence.
Oh, and then there’s the appeasement angle. “Just let them have Israel, and then they’ll leave us alone.” Which is an echo of 1938’s “Just let them have the Sudetenland, then, they’ll leave us alone.” And is as true now as that was then.
raj baby at #58 writing to Trace but missing nearly every boat still floating that makes a point, offers: “Note to Matty: I used that phrase in 2000-2001, which, on information and belief was long before DKos came along. Edicate yourself”
As you so often do, raj baby, I’d need to see ever single example of your use of that phrase since 1999 in order to approve your statement as true, I’d need to have t least 25 of your friends… opps, let’s make that a more realistic bumber like 2… who can attest and affirm you used that phrase before daily readings of the DailyKos… and you’d need to prove it first to the guy who brought it up –VdaK, not me you moron of little memory.
And you’d need to prove it first to the guy who brought it up –VdaK
Not really. Ian/raj demonstrated a long time ago that he/she/they are thoroughly devoid of honesty or integrity. Ian/raj is just a silly little mouse I bat around when it amuses me to do so, nothing more.
#61 Michigan-Matt — July 20, 2006 @ 7:01 am – July 20, 2006
As you so often do, raj baby, I’d need to see ever single example of your use of that phrase since 1999 in order to approve your statement as true, I’d need to have t least 25 of your friends… opps, let’s make that a more realistic bumber like 2… who can attest and affirm you used that phrase before daily readings of the DailyKos…
Hardly.
The earliest post googled in which I used the phrase was at LittleGreenGoofballs here (comment #86, date 8/13/2003) and a subseqent one was at WashingtonMonthly.com here (comment date/time November 15, 2003 at 7:42 AM )
The earliest “Stories and Diaries” at the DailyKos web site that even come close are substantially later, as shown by the search here.
Some of us know how to do internet searches. Matty lies again.