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When Is A Hate Crime Really Terrorism?

by

LittleGreenFootballs hits the nail on the head.

You can almost see Reuters writer Daisuke Wakabayashi sweating over every line of this report on the terror attack on the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle: Fatal Seattle Jewish center shooting a ‘hate crime’.

Here’s the text of the Reuters’ story:

SEATTLE (Reuters) – A lone gunman burst into a Jewish organization in downtown Seattle on Friday, killing one woman and wounding five others in what authorities were calling a hate crime.

Police said the gunman had been arrested without a struggle inside the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, where the shooting took place, and was being questioned by police.

The gunman is a U.S. citizen, and police said initial contacts with him by phone while he was inside the building indicated that he was a Muslim.

Amy Wasser-Simpson, the federation’s vice president, told the Seattle Times in a story on its Web site that the man got past security at the building and shouted, “I’m a Muslim American; I’m angry at Israel,” before he began shooting. [They couldn’t avoid this admission, since the Seattle Times already broke the story. —ed.]

“This was a purposeful, hateful act as far as we know, by an individual acting alone,” said Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels at a news conference, adding “This is a crime of hate.”

Or in another version of the Lone Gunman Hate Crime (against Jews and Americans), there is this explanation:  Sudden Jihad Syndrome (h/t: Michelle Malkin)

Individual Islamists may appear law-abiding and reasonable, but they are part of a totalitarian movement, and as such, all must be considered potential killers.  I wrote those words days after 9/11 and have been criticized for them ever since.

This is what I have dubbed the “Sudden Jihad Syndrome,” whereby normal-appearing Muslims abruptly become violent. It has the awful but legitimate consequence of casting suspicion on all Muslims. Who knows whence the next jihadi? How can one be confident a law-abiding Muslim will not suddenly erupt in a homicidal rage? Yes, of course, their numbers are very small, but they are disproportionately much higher than among non-Muslims.

There is a dead cat on the table and the American News Media chooses to ignore it.  Patterico illustrates this perfectly in his hilarious investigation into the Los Angeles’ Times “mystery” about the shooting.

Yes, if you ask the editors of the Los Angeles Times, it’s an utter mystery why the shootings occurred.

Then he repeated his name and gave his Social Security number, adding: “I just want us to get out of Iraq. I’m an American too, but I want our people out of Iraq.”

By Jove, Watson! I do believe we are getting closer to the solution of this indecipherable enigma!

The AP gives us further leads in this story:

Seattle police said Haq picked up the two handguns and spare ammunition just days earlier, and appeared to have targeted the federation after a cursory Internet search for Jewish organizations.

Remember that, Watson! “Jewish organizations.” Why, I do believe that was the very type of organization that ended up being targeted! Yes, I believe we may be onto something here.

The game’s afoot!

We’ll examine what the paper may have really meant using the paper’s own style of burying context: by placing it below the fold.

The American News Media and their comrades in the MadLibsDemocrat Party are beginning to treat Islamism as they did Communism when there was a similar threat to the USA — ignore it, apologize for it, condone it, assist it.Can we really afford to have this group governing our nation?  After all, “Clinton Slept While Al-Qaeda Planned 9/11.”

-Bruce (GayPatriot)

Comments

  1. “Clinton Slept While Al-Qaeda Planned 9/11.”

    And George Bush wasn’t too awake either, especially when he told Bush, in the White House on inauguration day that Bin-Laden and Osama were the current number 1 threats to the country. Guess a month long vacation after only 6 months on the job was more important.

    And as to this post: Perhaps you should check out the full definition of terrorism. The lone act of a single, mentally disturbed individucal is not a terrorist act. If you believe this is true, then what is your solution? Put all muslim americans into camps, deport them all? Strip them of their citizenship? I didn’t see such an outcry over angry, white men when Oklahoma City was attacked.

    And by the way, based on your “new rules”, why don’t you stop the name calling in your posts? So much for “encourage thoughtful discussion of the ideas posted on this site”

  2. And George Bush wasn’t too awake either, especially when he told Bush, in the White House on inauguration day that Bin-Laden and Osama were the current number 1 threats to the country.

    And we know this because Clinton said so and, gee, it’s not like he ever lied about anything.

  3. Kevin, what part of this “Clinton Slept While Al-Qaeda Planned 9/11” is NOT true?

    It’s certainly as accurate as Kennedy Lied; MaryJo Died. Or HowieScreamed and was Creamed. 2006: Another Kennedy in Rehab.

    Come on, the slogan “Clinton Slept While Al-Qaeda Planned 9/11” is amusing in that it captures the Left in all her duplicity.

  4. #1 “The lone act of a single, mentally disturbed individucal is not a terrorist act. ”
    So tell me, why is the act of a single person aganst a gay man (Mathew Sheppard) considered a hate crime? The murderer in Seattle chose Jewish people at random to kill, because he has an issue with Israel.

    Unfortunately for Mathew Sheppard, he had some bad dealings with his tormentor- murderer before hand. But all we heard was: this is a prime example of a hate crime.

    Terrorism come in many shapes and form. thank God, they are not all 9/11s. The act of a lone man against a group of civiliams, be they Jews, or simply Americans is terrorism. And making excuses for the murderer because he is a victim, doesn’t mitigate the severity of his crime.

  5. Because, Leah, gays are a minority that leftists like, and Jews are a minority that leftists hate.

    Furthermore, Democrats and leftists believe that what happens to Jews is their fault, since they’re the ones responsible for all the problems in the world. Democratic Party spokesperson and Howard Dean endorsee Cindy Sheehan has made that clear, and her minions over at DailyKos are doing their best to get thrown out of office and the Democratic Party one of the highest-ranking elected Jews in the United States.

    This person is just carrying out what Democrats want — our soldiers out of Iraq. Democrats have already made it clear that any act of protest or civil disobedience, including support of terrorists, is OK if it’s against the Iraq war.

    Watch them backpedal and claim how their words and actions against Jews and the Iraq war have nothing to do with causing this person’s actions.

  6. #4 Leah — July 31, 2006 @ 11:49 am – July 31, 2006

    So tell me, why is the act of a single person aganst a gay man (Mathew Sheppard) considered a hate crime?

    It might surprise you to know that Matthew’s murder in 1998 wasn’t considered a hate crime. And it still wouldn’t be. Why not? Because Wyoming did not then, and still does not, have a hate crimes law that covers “sexual orientation.” Notwithstanding the efforts of some people, including some involved in law enforcement, to get a hate crimes law passed in Wyoming that would cover sexual orientation.

    In fact, in most of the jurisdictions, including the Feds, that have hate crimes legislation, sexual orientation is notably lacking. Why? Because, when it has been proposed to add “sexual orientation” to existing hate crimes legislation, conservative “christians” come out in droves to oppose the legislation. Notwithstanding the fact that “religion” is already covered by virtually all–if not all–hate crimes legislation.

    Regarding the quotation from #1 “The lone act of a single, mentally disturbed individucal is not a terrorist act” is probably true. Recall John Salvi, the mentally disturbed individual from New Hampshire who, in 1996, invaded Brookline MA and murdered some people in womens’ clinics there. Some have speculated that he was haunted by christianic demons when he pulled the trigger, but nobody knows for sure.

    Muslim? Christian? Who knows?

  7. Out of curiousity, I went and tried to look up the definition of terrorism. There wasn’t one definition. In fact one site (Wikipedia) mentioned an eighteen year old US Army study that identitfied over 100 different defitions…I wonder if that has increased or decreased.

    Most of the definitions included a statements about the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments.

    I’m left with the conclusion that there is much in common between a hate crime and a terrorist action. They’re both inspired by a hatred for a percieved group / class of people. They’re both intended to intimidate a group of people (a small community or a larger nation). They both have disregard for the value of human life.

    The murder of Matt Shepard doesn’t rise to “terrorist action” since the intent wasn’t the reshaping of government policy. It is a hate crime because he was singled out for murder because he was gay (as I recall)…the perp’s hated

  8. #5 “Furthermore, Democrats and leftists believe that what happens to Jews is their fault, since they’re the ones responsible for all the problems in the world.”
    NDT, a truer statement couldn’t be made. The Jews brought a moral code into this world, the Christians took it and spread it through the world. Hense, Judeo-Christian values. Together with Greco-Roman ideals, they created what we call Western Civilization. The one culture that recognizes the worth of every individual – that every human being has both rights and responsibilities to society. And of course the rest of the world hates that concept. Islam is about submission, not about human dignity.
    So of course, when you want to take over the world, you must go after the root cause. The Jews, get them out of the way, and the rest of the west will fall as well. And then of course the fighting between different segments of Islam can begin in earnest.

    And Raj, I wish no one had “hate crimes’. Can’t we simply prosecute based on the end result of the crime, be it murder, or mayham, or property damage. Why does the mindset of the perpetrator have anything to do with the punishment. Another lefty idea, the “feelings” are more important than the action itself.
    I’m not asking for a seperate punishment for terrorism. But when a muslim on a Friday afternoon, after probably hearing an incindiary sermon at his mosque, goes into a Jewish oragnization and randomly shoots women who are working there. The least the press can do is call it by name: Terrorism.

  9. Can’t we simply prosecute based on the end result of the crime, be it murder, or mayham, or property damage. Why does the mindset of the perpetrator have anything to do with the punishment.

    No, Leah, for a simple reason: it doesn’t validate the victimhood of the minority in question.

    When a black person is murdered, simply prosecuting, convicting, and punishing the person does nothing to maintain or build the sense of “everyone’s out to get us” in the black community. Indeed, it does the opposite, lending the idea that, if a black person is killed, justice is forthcoming.

    Hate crimes legislation exists because something needed to take the place of institutionalized racism in this country to continue to feed the victimhood of minorities — and to solidify the plantation control of the Democratic party over them.

    The fact that the rhetoric hate speech and hate crimes are a means to a political end and a reinforcement of victims’ attitudes, not a reaction to actual crimes or speech, is made obvious when one talks about black conservatives. To call black conservatives “oreos”, “Sambos”, “house slaves”, and other derogatory statements, or to criticize black children who succeed academically as “acting white”, is not hate speech, according to white and black Democrats — because black conservatives and these children deserve it for allegedly “acting against the interests of their race”.

  10. #8 Leah — July 31, 2006 @ 1:06 pm – July 31, 2006

    And Raj, I wish no one had “hate crimes’. Can’t we simply prosecute based on the end result of the crime, be it murder, or mayham, or property damage. Why does the mindset of the perpetrator have anything to do with the punishment.

    Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. Let’s take homicide for an example. In homicide, there are multiple grade, from various grades of manslaughter (generally defined as negligent causing of death to the victim), to various grades of murder (generally defined as more intentional causing of death.). In any case, the victim is dead. But the moral culpability of the perpetrator differs as among the various crimes.

    The various elements of the crimes differ as among the states, but the moral is the same. The touchstone is not so much what happens to the victim, as it is what the defendant is alleged to have done that has caused what happens to the victim.

  11. Tell all the straight people who have been called “breeders” and jeered and harrassed in Provincetown, MA that there is no such thing as a hate crime. Or that their right to call what happens to them a “hate crime” does not exist.

    Hypocrisy, thy name is liberalism.

    Regards,
    Peter H.

  12. Speaking of things that were left out…..

    You forgot to mention that the guy had previously shown signs of being mentally unstable, and in fact had even been arrested after he:

    ….he climbed on top of a fountain near a Macy’s in a Richland-area mall, unzipped his pants and started exposing himself to women.

    I don’t recall that being added to the Al Quaeda training manual for would-be terrorists do you? Would they be doing everything possible not to be noticed?

    And while the article says he was a Muslim, he could have been a muslim in the same way John Kerry is a Catholic.

    Was he a secret Al Quaeda sleeper agent or just a nut inspired by general Arab and Persian anti-Jewish sentiment?

    I think he was just a nut.

  13. 4: You should re-check your historical facts. there was more than one person involved in Matthew Shepherd’s murder and more than one preson was convicted. tying him to a fence and torturing him and murdering him was planned by these people and he was specifically a target.

    If the guy “who had bad dealings with him” had walked into a gay bar alone with a machine gun and just shot patrons randomly, then he would be in the same position as this nut case in Washington last week.

    So by your logic, if I, as a gay man, had some “bad dealings” with a straight woman who tried to come on to me, then I would be justified in tying her to a fence and torturing her? Course you wouldn’t know the whole story, would you?

  14. You’d be prosecuted (and most likely convicted) of first-degree murder.

    And that’s all that really matters, of course.

    However, Kevin, what you want is not justice, but validation.

    Unless Matt Shepard’s killers are punished more than they would be had they killed a straight person, you will not be content.

  15. Kevin, NDT stole my thunder, personally, I would like to see the murderers of Mathew Sheppard get the death penalty. Because it appears that they tortured and murdered him in what I would consider a first degree murder.
    That is all that matters, whether they hated him because he was gay, or because a drug deal went wrong makes no difference to me.
    I want the act itself to be punished, not the motives.

    Had they walked into a gay bar and indescrimenantly started shooting the bar patrons, I would want the press to lable them terrorists, because along with murder, their goal would have been to cause fear among an innocent group of civilians.

  16. Kevin, NDT stole my thunder, personally, I would like to see the murderers of Mathew Sheppard get the death penalty. Because it appears that they tortured and murdered him in what I would consider a first degree murder.

    He did get the death penalty. Shepard’s parents however interceded and asked that it be changed to life imprisonment based on theirs and Matt’s moral beliefs.

  17. NDXXX when you wrote to Kevin: “Unless Matt Shepard’s killers are punished more than they would be had they killed a straight person, you will not be content” you were 100% on spot.

    Plus that the GayHateCrime advocates want validation that they are a UNIQUE class of victims… it’s like a silver star on their VictimHoodCard and GayCard all at once.

    GayHateCrime legislation isn’t on MY gay rights agenda… nor is gay marriage, nor special rights, nor multiple Pride Parades and state funding of such, nor sensitivity training courses in middle school and high school, nor gay clubs in public schools, nor affirmative action for gays. I want us to be treated like all other people: fairly, honestly, with an equality of opportunity… not an enforced equality of outcomes.

    Matthew Sheppard’s death was a tragedy. But he was engaged in illegal drug transactions and he is NOT my hero, role model or poster boi. He’s been made a pawn of the GayLeft and that is vile. He exemplifies what continues to be wrong in our culture… we let the youngest hazard life without true mentoring support. His death was terrible but he wasn’t an innocent bystander as some here have often claimed.

  19. Matthew Sheppard’s death was a tragedy. But he was engaged in illegal drug transactions and he is NOT my hero, role model or poster boi. He’s been made a pawn of the GayLeft and that is vile. He exemplifies what continues to be wrong in our culture… we let the youngest hazard life without true mentoring support. His death was terrible but he wasn’t an innocent bystander as some here have often claimed.

    This line of reasoning is oddly familiar. Its exactly the same thing that comes out of the “blame America” crowd, only with names and places changed.

    And do tell me, whats worse, the HRC crowd using him as an symbol of Gay Victimhood or you using him as a symbol of everything thats “wrong in our culture”? Either way, you are still using him.

  20. civil discourse?

    “The American News Media and their comrades in the MadLibsDemocrat Party are beginning to treat Islamism as they did Communism when there was a similar threat to the USA — ignore it, apologize for it, condone it, assist it.Can we really afford to have this group governing our nation? After all, “Clinton Slept While Al-Qaeda Planned 9/11.””

  23. Gramps, I can understand why you’d prefer to keep Matthew Sheppard as some icon of GayHateCrimes. You’ve often mentioned here your own failed and tormented childhood and triggered sense of victimhood as the correct response to any alleged injustice. And since you’re a charter member of the BlameAmericaFirstCrowd, I take with alarm your concern that my comments seem to reflect your line of thinking. But you’re just wrong… again… you really need to take a course in logic if you think there’s a parallel.

    I didn’t write you couldn’t go on using Sheppard for your sick validation, I wrote that I think the elevation misses what’s wrong in our gay culture. How difficult a concept can that be for you? Evidently, a lot.

    But that’s ok, your capacity to sidestep nearly every concept which runs contrary to your world is legendary on this blog, Gramps. I didn’t expect you to “get it”; that would require you to put down the blinders and think for yourself. And study logic at the local junior college.

  25. raj at #21, if you’d take the time to read through your own cite of what I consider a less-than-responsible website, you’d have found that the article suggests a major news organ thought Matthew’s gayness wasn’t the reason for the torture and brutal murder –it was, surprise, drug related.

    Either start reading your own cites for COMPREHENSION or find something else to do with your day.

    What I found interesting in your cited article was it confirms the near fevered pitch of “gay leaders” screaming foul when it appears the story might shift from GayHateCrimes to an illegal drug buy gone sour. Of course, the story has since shifted to a more truthful position and meth, illegal drug buys, booze and money –not gayness.

    Pray tell raj, how is that revisionist except by speaking truth to PR spin by the GayLeft?

    I wrote: “Matthew Sheppard’s death was a tragedy. But he was engaged in illegal drug transactions and he is NOT my hero, role model or poster boi. He’s been made a pawn of the GayLeft and that is vile. He exemplifies what continues to be wrong in our culture… we let the youngest hazard life without true mentoring support. His death was terrible but he wasn’t an innocent bystander as some here have often claimed.”

    The article confirms that view. You can worship at the Sheppard altar, raj. It suits your needs. Not mine.

    You gotta spend some time in that “Reading 4 Comprehension” class at the junior college, raj. You still haven’t mastered the skill.

    Gramps, raj? We’re off topic a bit… I’m done; I won’t endlessly rehash Matthew Sheppard’s murder. Unless Bruce or Dan post a topic on it.

    Let’s get back to the main topic: HateCrimes and real terrorism.

  27. VdaK, when raj cites some examples of our WorldNetDaily lovefest… let me know. I didn’t think I had ever even visited the site until his cite… but for raj, truth is always elusive, mercurial, and out of his reach.

    Of course he won’t provide cites… he’s simply to busy to be bothered backing up spurious statements. As he’s proven in the past, his ambulance chasing vehicle doesn’t stop for the truth, just to assess whether the injury will tranlsate into a monied settlement.

    Commerce Dept agencies as “respectable private think tanks”; “none of the other UN SecCoun members care about Lebannon and the Middle East except the US”; etc etc.

    Opps, I was right… it’s all tail lights and gas pedal for raj again.

    Nice try, though VdaK.

  30. #25 Michigan-Matt — August 1, 2006 @ 9:31 am – August 1, 2006

    I wrote: “Matthew Sheppard’s death was a tragedy. But he was engaged in illegal drug transactions…

    I know that you wrote that. But, one might seriously question, what was the source of your information that he was “engaged in illegal drug transactions”? You made the assertion that he was, but what was the source of your information? If not WorldNutDaily, then what? Cite chapter and verse.

  32. The reason raj and ian are suspected of being the same person has been documented. Similarly, raj should now document “a lot” of occasions on which Matt and/or myself “made use” of WND as a source, or apologize for making a baseless accusation he is incapable of backing up.

  33. Apparently, Ian googled “matthew shepard meth site:worldnetdaily.com”, and assumed that since it appeared there, it couldn’t have possibly appeared anywhere else.

    But if he had bothered to do a real google search (or disclosed the results of one) Ian would have discovered that the story first broke on ABC’s 20/20.

  34. While it’s true that Matthew Shepard’s killers used the “gay panic” defense, that’s not proof of their true motivations, only their desire to escape punishment.

    And this case never would have made the limelight had it not occured just a few weeks before the November 1998 mid-term elections, when the Democrats desparately needed a distraction from their own troubles.

  38. raj, I said I was done rehashing the Matthew Sheppard GayHateCrimes story. With all due respect and civility, I shall not respond to your taunts. Laramie Wyo and Wyo State Police reports are available by FOIA requests –which is how I saw them, redacted modestly, from an Ann Arbor News reporter who is a stunningly brilliant mah johng partner but a Democrat/Green Party guy.

    But on YOUR allegation that VdaK is a sockpuppet… I would like you to add proof to the silliness and get back to providing the documentation for the other allegation that VdaK uses World Net Daily as a source… I know you can’t find one for me.

  39. raj at #30 writes: “You (meaning Michigan-Matt) made the assertion that he (meaning Matthew Shepperd) was, but what was the source of your information? If not WorldNutDaily, then what? Cite chapter and verse.”

    No, raj. You alleged the WND connection –prove it now.

  42. Ian, the only thing you proved was that WND was one of many websites that ran the article. You didn’t prove that it was the one that V the K to which V the K linked.

  45. V the K says:

    To me. Matt Shepard was just a naive college student who left a bar with a stranger and then terrible tragic things happened to him.

    There, but for the Grace of God…

    Yes, exactly.
    _________

    Michigan-Matt:

    As far as me “blaming America”, I don’t think will ever find an example of where I’ve done that. If you think differently, prove it. This, like your claim awhile back that I was an atheist, are complete fabrications manufactured in your brain, not mine. And BTW, blaming Bush for something is not the same thing as “blaming America” as you claim.

    Michigan-Matt, I used to get quite annoyed with you whenever you made such silly claims as to what I believe, but now I think its kind of fascinating. Because you actually even seem to believe in them yourself. You have built up this amazingly detailed image in your head of the archetypal Liberal Bogeyman, and you slap it on anyone who says something you don’t like. And you view everything that they say from that point on through that archetype. I could mention a fondness for peanut butter and you would find a way to turn that statement into some liberal-communist manifesto.

    What does this have to do with Mathew Shepard? Its simple. He also is an archetype of a sort. And one that has little to do with his actual life or personality.

    The interesting thing is that he wasn’t something created and marketed as such by HRC, at least not at first, his story seemed to just grip the nation, gay or straight.

    And that had to do I think with the images in peoples heads that his story described. They struck deep cultural roots in our country. He was a decidedly Christ-like image in many people eyes. The photograph shown of a sweet young blond kid, juxtaposed with the images of the fence where he was crucified out in the middle of nowhere under a lonely Montana sky. The barb-wire fence even echoing the Crown of Thorns.. Its just something that happened to hit all the right buttons at that moment of time in our culture.

  46. Its just something that happened to hit all the right buttons at that moment… when the Democrats were less than a month away from the 1998 mid-term elections.

  51. Gramps, sorry but the BlameAmericaFirst title is one you’ve earned through countless comments here and the ones you’ve recently deleted on your own rarely visited blog. Nice try, but the shoe fits and just because you’ve worn them a few times around the block doesn’t mean you can bring them back for a refund now. The shoe fits.

    I’m not the one who thinks you’re an atheist, Gramps. You offered you parent was one, though. I don’t care how you view God; it’s your business. In my view, solely your business.

    I’ve correctly noted that you are an equal opportunity religious bigot — what with all the sneering “Christianist” namecalling, the mean-spirited comments about the Islamic faith and Muslims, etc. Bigots take their hatred and allow it to spew out into public as a way to influence opinion. That’s where we part company and I hold firm: you’re a religious bigot –maybe as bad as the gay bigots on the Religious Right.

    You might not like be held accountable for your comments, but don’t try to play the VictimHoodCard one more time on us. There is no victim hiding inside a bigot, Gramps. Evidently, no recall memory either.

  52. Bigots take their hatred and allow it to spew out into public as a way to influence opinion.

    Yeah, but at least when Mel Gibson was arrested he didn’t declare. “Are you Catholic? No? Then f*** off! This is my culture!”

  53. So, even though name calling never advances any political discussion, I noticed that it\’s allowed to continue here. Further I\’ve noticed that only arch-enemy Raj is being edited/deleted. Like Fox, this is quite fair and balanced.

    [GP Ed. Note:  You are quite mistaken as I have been deleting/editing based on the content and applying the rules uniformly.  Perhaps those being edited/deleted more are the ones that can\’t handle the rules here.  That should be the pattern you should look for.]

  54. Heya Kevin, I can give an Amen and testify to Bruce’s veracity –like that would even be necessary. I was edited too. My comments were a slam on raj that tied in all sorts of past issues in a run-on metaphor and was correctly, appropriately deleted by the blog’s host and so noted.

    It isn’t as you contend –a raj only, selective application.

    Bruce is right: I found the rules to be uniformly applied with precision.

    You need to take a moment and say “sorry Bruce. I was wrong.” It’s only fair and all about good sportsmanship.

  55. VdaK, poor old Gibson. I actually cringed when it was reported that he was in contact with a Jewish advocacy group to ask about sensitivity training.

    If TeddyK or PaddieK were held to the same standard, those guys would be in sex harassment prevention clinics for the balance of their miserable, drug-induced lives. Oh wait, that would require Slick Willy to give up his honorary chair at those clinics.

  58. #22 V the K — August 1, 2006 @ 9:16 am – August 1, 2006

    >>>My, both you and V the K certainly make a lot of use of WorldNutDaily, don’t you? Interesting.

    Cite examples, please.

    Let me see. In addition to my #21, dated Aug 1 2006, referring to Matty’s post #17, dated July 31, 2006, there was also my comment #23 here. The link labeled “here” was a link to WorldNutDaily.

    That’s two times in less than a week that references were made to items that were prominently displayed on the anti-gay web site WorldNutDaily.

    I’m sure that you all are more than capable of explaining away where you got the relevant references from. I probably won’t believe your explanations, but, what the heck. Give it a try.

    BTW, it really is amusing that you are flailing about by raising the Jesse Dirkhising case, a case that has been championed by anti-gay forces for years. Next, you’ll be bringing up Jeffrey Curley–or maybe you won’t. 10 year old Jeffrey was raped and murdered by two men who the parents admitted, in their filings with the court in their wrongful death case against the perpetrators, were straight.

  59. raj for YOU to allege that someone gets all their news from World Net Daily and then repeat the allegation is NOT proof adequate, sufficient or enlightening.

    Try again. And for the record, you have yet to pin me or a single idea of mine to WND… you’ve been more focused on smearing VdaK.

    My challenge to your truthfulness remains: either prove I read and use WND or retract that deceptive allegation with an apology raj.

    Quick the spinning and lying raj. Stay on task.

  63. raj, the community here is awaiting your clear proof you hold: 1) of VdaK being a sockpuppet or me being his sockpuppet; 2) I read WorldNetDaily regularly and my comments here prove it; 3) and that you were wrong about the Shepard/meth connection.

    Awful lot of silence over on the far radical GayLeft, raj.

    Kevin: I think you could lead the way by admiting your were wrong about the manner in which Bruce has been deleting comments –both VdaK and I have felt the red pen… it wasn’t just raj as you contended.

    Try to say “Sorry Bruce. I was wrong.” Don’t wait for raj to teach you. Or Gramps. They don’t do apologies –they just move on to new allegations, distortions and spin.

  65. #64 V the K — August 3, 2006 @ 5:34 am – August 3, 2006

    Your continuing unwillingness to cite your source gives you away.

    You could, of course, say “I don’t remember where I got that silliness from.” I probably wouldn’t believe it if you said it, but you could say that. Two times to stories prominently displayed on WorldNutDaily in less than a week is just too much coincidence.

    I’d almost be willing to root around FreeRepublic.com to find other possible sources for your information, but I would not want to soil myself.

  67. From the title of the post

    When Is A Hate Crime Really Terrorism?

    I guess when it is carried out by a baptized Christian.

    Shooting suspect was baptized

    /sarcasm

    Let’s understand something. Crazy people do crazy things, whether or not they are terrorists, whether or not the are Muslims, and whether or not they are Christians. This guy was crazy. John Salvi was crazy. The guy in CA who was associated with the World Church of the Redeemer, and who killed a few people, was crazy. Tim McVeigh was crazy. Eric Frank Rudolph (another self-professed Christian) was crazy–although he probably evaded capture for so long because he was assisted by like-minded crazy self-professed Christians.

    And your attempt to pin the Washington State attack on terrorism is also crazy.

  68. raj? The community here is awaiting your proof (re #63) or your multiple apologies.

    Stay on task.

    And Kevin: the word is “sorry” but direct to Bruce for you hasty and inaccurate assessment of the use of his red pen.

  69. #63 Michigan-Matt — August 2, 2006 @ 11:03 pm – August 2, 2006

    raj, the community here is awaiting your clear proof you hold: 1) of VdaK being a sockpuppet or me being his sockpuppet; 2) I read WorldNetDaily regularly and my comments here prove it; 3) and that you were wrong about the Shepard/meth connection.

    Don’t hold your breath.

    Re (1) do you really believe that I am going to afford you and V the K the courtesy that you and you cohorts here refuse to afford me? If so, you are sadly mistaken. You and your buddies claim that Ian and I are sockpuppets without any evidence, and you object to my claim that you and V the K are sockpuppets? Get your foot out of your mouth.

    Let’s look at the evidence. You and your cohorts claim that Ian and I are sockpuppets based on–what? The fact that we post similar ideas on similar topics? Oh, my goodness–if that were the only touchstone for sock-puppetry, you, V the K, NDXXX, Peter, Calarato, RightWingProf, and many others here would be sock puppets.

    No, regarding you and V the K goes a bit further than that. You and he (presuming there is another “he”) co-authored a series of blog entries on the same subject matter. In a recent comment, V the K admitted that he had resided in Michigan, apparently for an extended period of time–one presumes that you “Michigan-Matt” also live–or lived–in Michigan. You and he pipe up almost simultaneously to support each other. Sock-puppet? You tell me.

    But that is irrespective of the fact that you want to mow-mow me into kow-towing to you on an issue that of courtesy that you are unwilling to grant to me. Sorry civil discourse (“new commenting rules”) doesn’t work quite like that.

    Re (2), sorry, dear. I cited a prominent right-wing source for your and V the K’s comments on two topics, which you and “V the K” posted on within less than a week. You could have denied that WorldNutDaily was the source of your information, and you could have provided an alternative source but you didn’t. I could have done better than you and he in that regard, but the fact is that you did not even bother to post to an alternate source.

    Re (3) I’m not going to admit to anything about your supposed “Shepard/meth connection” because you haven’t posted any citation to any credible source that might substantiate that.

    Grow up.

  70. raj, thank you for your further spin and obfuscations.

    The truth is I did provide you with proof of my source on the Shepard/meth fact; you just continue to ignore it or try to redirection attention away from your own responsibility to conduct yourself in a civil, decent manner.

    Now, stay on task and focus. The words are sorry, apologize, forgive ole’ raj.

    To me. To Bruce for calling him a liar and then presuming to suggest he might use your email for untoward or dishonest purpose. To VdaK for a lot of abuse.

    Stay on task, raj. Focus.

  71. Let me see, raj’s new rule for spinning baseless allegations is: 1) toss them out there willy-nilly, 2) see if they stick, 3) if asked for proof then further the intellectual injury by arguing that your opponent didn’t deny the allegation or offer alternative proof; and 4) repeat over as needed until you get blocked from the blog, site, bulletin board, web discussion room or yet another bar on the East Coast.

    Never admit you were wrong –even on little items. Add lies to the intellectual injury and smears. Seek to redirect and misdirect the focus away from your baseless allegations back onto the smeared target.

    Gosh, raj, those are some rules. Thanks for putting them in practice on yet another web site. I hope they get you banned again.

  75. Well, I just went over to Google and looked through all the WorldNetDaily stories on the Matthew Shepard/meth story, and every single one of them mentions the ABC News story top front and center.

    So even someone in the past did use WorldNetDaily as a source (I’m not saying they actually did), anyone attempting to refute the story would have had to go to the ABC story anyway.

  76. #74 Frank IBC — August 3, 2006 @ 8:15 pm – August 3, 2006

    Here is the Matthew Shepard/Meth story where it first appeared, on ABC News. (Emphasis added)

    So, let me understand this. You believe that November 26, 2004, the date of the ABC “news” article that you linked to, is prior to November 14, 2004, the date of the WorldNutDaily article that I had linked to. Interesting.

    I suppose you also believe that up is down, left is right, and backwards is forwards. Correct? And, I presume, the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.