And that’s the whole point here; since you saw no need to stop Saddam, and indeed covered up his worst abuses so that he wouldn’t be stopped, your statements are empty.

Before the invasion, there was no “Iraq: The Model”.

Indeed, our young friend would have been killed, and likely his whole family too, for reporting such things from inside Ba’athist Iraq.

I spoke out against that sort of thing, but you and your fellow liberals tried to stop it.

You claimed that we should not speak of Saddam’s atrocities, such as imprisoning toddlers and babies, in the name of “dealing peace”.

And now you presume to lecture us?

Listen now and you will hear the wailing of Iraqi women as their sons are brought out to be executed.
Listen now and you will hear the government’s silence while citizens fortify their neighborhoods.
Listen now and you will hear Iraqi clerics call their citizens to fight side by side with Hezbollah.
Listen now and you will hear the Islamists rising in the wake of the chaos of Iraq.
But of course, your self righteousness may have made deaf.
If that is the case try reading Iraqi the august 7th post of:
the blog: iraqthemodel

What rock did you live under during those years, Kevin?

Clinton and Big Business take on China’s Permanent MFN status
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=234

Clinton and Occidental Petroleum (that would be BigOil)
http://www.moles.org/ProjectUnderground/drillbits/5_08/2.html

Clinton and the Evil MultiNationals
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/021700-01.htm\

Or what part of welcoming in BigBusiness’ Buddies into the cabinet like Bentsen (“Businessmen: just give me $10,000 and you can have breakfast with me anytime”), Panetta, Rivlin, Rubin, Altman, the Lincoln Bedroom for $100k a pop per night if you really meant business… Hillary or Bill’s en-suite “attentions” are extra)…

Or how about the way he jumped into bed with Hollywood’s BigBusiness Entertainment Industry moguls?

Kevin, where have you been? “And ya know, it’s pretty funny, because during the 8 Clinton years, big business was pretty much un-welcome in the White House”… right LOL.

What did you think MFN status for China and the illegal Chinese government kickbacks to Clinton and later Gore were all about? Big Business opening up China… it’s why the US Chamber of Commerce’s Tom Donahue got into bed with the Clinton Administration on the issue.

Gheez. Get some informed opinions, will ya?

I nominate that for ironic moment of the week.

But now to this:

Because even though I say that life in Iraq is just as bad now as it was under Sadam, you still say I feel Sadam is preferable.

Of course.

You see, you can go on and on about how awful Saddam was, but the simple fact of the matter is that you didn’t do anything about it, nor would you allow anything to be done about it.

Now you’re whining day and night about conditions as they are.

Obviously, since you said nothing before, you preferred Saddam.

for your information, I do save and conserve gas, use mass transportation, etc. my next car will be even more fuel efficient than what I have now.

And ya know, it’s pretty funny, because during the 8 Clinton years, big business was pretty much un-welcome in the White House and for some reason we seemed to do ok with a government that at least tried to serve the people, not the corporation.

And by the way, murderers of gays in Iraq are portected by a government that was pretty much set up by our conservative government…hmmmmm.

In the most notorious state for sexual shenanigans (yep, that’d be Slick Willy’s state of Arkansas), they adopted an anti-sodomy forced sex law in 1868 but, on a search of historical records prompted by a request from the “SodomyLaws.org” folks others have cited here and in other threads, state historians can’t locate any record of conviction or execution.

Bzzzzzzzzt. The record of the Continental Army is clear on this one, Patrick. One solider, Lt Enslin in 1778, was court-martialed for sodomy after he was caught in bed with a man. One. Not many. One. And he wasn’t hung… well, not in the way you mean. Sorry. Unless we’re going to haul out some discredited, non-peer reviewed book to claim Washington hung men for sodomy. The records of the Continental Army are clear. There were men hung for treason, spying, etc. But even Gen George Washington understood the comforts of bed when the campfires waned.

Second, you write earlier: “The penalty for sodomy in many states was the death penalty, as it was in the military”

Bzzzt. Wrong again –hey, isn’t the whole sodomy in the military issue one of your pet issues? I can see why you hold these opinions, Patrick, you’re just misinformed.

Actually, homosexual conduct wasn’t prohibited until WWI. And at first it was only for forced sodomization… as in rape. Later consensual sex was added to military law but it only is for court martial. No hanging. No cutting off the fingers. No torture on the rack at GitMo. Court martial.

In 2001, on the 50th Anniversary of the UCMJ a blue ribbon panel –chosen by Geo Bush and Don Rumsfeld by the way– called on the Pentagon to change the sodomy language and, as you might know, the Pentagon said Nope… or something like that.

So, no hanging for sodomy in the US military –as they do in Iran and elsewhere.

Just another one of those myths danced around for no purpose other than…. what? Oh, like the rube the military torture prisoners as a matter of practice and policy. I forgot.

It does deserve an NEA grant and an honorable mention in the American Library Assn’s Hall of Memories. That sticker nails it. Bravo.

It’s like al Jazeera printing bumber stickers that say “Support al-Qaeda; vote Democrat”.

http://www.sodomylaws.org

DR

Example:

And NDT, come on, there is something wrong with our program in Iraq when its a fact that under Saddam’s rule, women, gays, Christians, and more secular people were on average actually safer on an everyday basis than they are today. Women were not being shot on the street for not wearing a veil. They were not denied access to the workforce.

But then you make this statement:

While I supported the ouster of Saddam, I just don’t see how you can claim such a bright rosy picture of Iraq.

Why did you support the ouster of Saddam then, if you claim that things were safer for “women, gays, Christians, and more secular people” when he was ruler?

Maybe because you knew that, under Saddam, women and others were being shot on the street for making inopportune statements, for being Shi’a or another non-Sunni majority, for protesting their sons being conscripted, for not paying due homage to Saddam’s image, and because their husband’s second cousin had allegedly made plans to assassinate Saddam.

But like a good leftist, you assume that most Americans don’t know what life was like under Saddam, mainly because your media outlets openly lied about it in order to preserve “access” (and also to not embarrass the feckless Clinton appeasement process and corrupt UN bureaucrats).

If you can show actual proof that sodomy was a capital punishment anywhere in the USA, complete with actual executions, then I’ll believe you.

Regards,
Peter H.

Anyone who can use “moral relativism” as an argument in this issue is borderline autistic. And anyone who thinks that what is happening to gays in an Islamic regime COULD happen here in the right circumstances definitely qualifies as a certified nutjob and self-loathing idiot.

While its unlikely to happen again here in the US, it certainly happened in the past. The penalty for sodomy in many states was the death penalty, as it was in the military. In fact George Washington hanged some men in the Continental army for the “crime”.

And NDT, come on, there is something wrong with our program in Iraq when its a fact that under Saddam’s rule, women, gays, Christians, and more secular people were on average actually safer on an everyday basis than they are today. Women were not being shot on the street for not wearing a veil. They were not denied access to the workforce.

While I supported the ouster of Saddam, I just don’t see how you can claim such a bright rosy picture of Iraq. The USA fucked this country up royally. We have not created a Mideast democracy, we have created another Iran. We can’t pull out of course, we took responsibility for the country the moment we crossed its borders. But its not going to get better in Iraq until there is regime change in DC.

But feel free to go right on sucking Bush #$#@ until you are blue in the face NDT.

For starters – since we’re discussing the impossible here – who doesn’t think the NYT, CNN, WaPo, LATimes and other MSM outlets wouldn’t run to “expose” what they perceived as “gay concentration camps” run somewhere in Montana or Wyoming or other remote area? They sure as hell aren’t shy about revealing any other “state secrets.” Let’s not forget the so-called “Muslim camps” during the Bosnian war that were documented…and later turned out to be fake…

Secondly – who among us would voluntarily be relocated to an American version of Dachau? Would you meekly board a closed cattle car for destination unknown? Or would you be a man and fight for your right to live your life, maybe even dying in the process? (Remember, you can’t run to the UN for help, and you can’t call in the French.)

Illustrating the absurd is one way of neutralizing it.

And speaking as someone who lost relatives to the Nazis during WWII in Europe, you had better THINK about citing moral relativism to me when making these false comparisons.

Hypocrisy, thy name is liberalism.

Regards,
Peter H.