Thanks to GP reader Liz for bringing this interesting take on the Pope/Muslim jihad angle to my attention…
Muslims and gays have the same problem. Who is doing the talking. The crazy ones. Whenever there is a gay issue who is doing the taliking some freak in pants with the ass cut out and nipple clamps. Most gay people aren’t like that why domn’t they tell that freak to sit down and shut up. Most Muslims don’t think burning churches and stoning women is a good idea. Why don’t they ever stand up and say shut up you backwards ass cave dwelling freaks. You don’t speak for us.
Liz agreed and emailed me her thoughts as well.
As a gay women in her 40’s I often think that many in the community go about getting recognition for gays and lesbians the wrong way and that the publicity we get for outrages behavior is not good. Am I endorsing this behavior because I don’t say that I disagree with it publicly in the same way I believe Muslims are endorsing radical Islam by not speaking out against it? My problem of course is what forum do I have for speaking out against the outrageous behavior of gays and Lesbians in my community, but then what forum does your average Muslim have for speaking out?
I have to concur. The messenger and those who stand next to them, and those who stand by in silence, are sometimes just as important as the message.
-Bruce (GayPatriot)
Good point, Liz. In a satirical piece written for townhall.com, columnist Mike Adams states that a Muslim would probably agree with this sentence: “While we are not inclined to admit it, we thank American homosexual activists for teaching us how to act like crazed sociopaths to effect social change.”
Here’s the link. It’s a hoot:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MikeSAdams/2006/09/17/my_conversion_to_radical_islam
Regards,
Peter H.
Bruce, in a very real way you and others here are “shouting down” the kind of stereotype in the gay community that Liz decries… and there are devout, honest muslims and arabs who decry the excesses of a viciously terrorizing segment in the MiddleEast and elsewhere who have highjacked a religion in the collective mind of the public.
As many GP readers with a conservative bent have written to you –GayPatriot is a largely singular, welcomed voice for them.
Our community isn’t known by the monogamous, stable, conservative members who populate 20-30% of our community. It’s known by a young, confused urban poor twink or a chapped, buttless muscle mary or by the screamin’ly liberal Democrat Plantation livin’ agitator for whom no VictimHoodCard has enough privileges, credits or rights.
For the last 25 years, those images of what gay means in America have had unchecked attention by an image-rich media seeking to sell a story. We’ve been defined by excess sexual focus and AIDS and the flamers on PBS-HGTV. We aren’t going to escape it in the short term… but your work here is a start.
I know of many solid, pro-American muslims here in A2 who bleed red/white/blue but take offense when they get lumped into the same pile of crap that holds MiddleEast terrorists and radical, hate-fomenting zealots who have highjacked Islam. There are many voices of reason and tolerance and American support in the muslim community here –I assume that’s true in other cities.
When are the good muslims going to begin speaking out, condemning excess within their community? Hey, it took us a long time to do it with the gay community. Silence doesn’t always translate into agreement or consent –although that might be the maxim.
We could ask a sort of similar question of those of the last generation: Why were you so silent in the face of radical opposition and civil war in the streets of America in the late 60s and early 70s? It was called a Silent Majority… but that generation couldn’t offer constructive resistance to the radicals who took over our streets, our courts, our govt? Why did they fail? Lack of will? Sell-outs from the media elite? Failures to educate on the important traditions of our Nation? Why didn’t the last generation clamp down on the sexual revolution and reinforce mainstream American values of prudence, moderation, self restraint? Why leave it up to our generation to bring the screamin culture back to right-of-center?
We need to find a finer bristled brush when we paint either the gay community or the muslim world with a loaded, extra wide nappy roller.
I can understand Liz’s frustration; but in a very real way what you’re doing here is part of first step in breaking out of the GayLeftBorg box we’ve all been painted into in the last 25 yrs… moderate muslims will do the same in greater numbers over the next few years.
At least I pray they do.
Here in Ann Arbor, we religiously practice diversity and tolerance –conservatives, libertarians, liberals, even the anti-war moonbats.
Oddly insightful, taking in-account a distorted-sense of scale;
I remember the ACT-UP rallies and their sense of guerrilla street-theater mixed with real anger. Although the Moslem brothers have entirely missed the requisite protocol for a proper “die-in”; there are supposed to be survivors!
I think you are disparaging a lot of people in the gay community by making this comparison. Yes, sexual fetishes may be more on display in the gay community than in mainstream society, but that doesn’t make them bad people. The gay left doesn’t threaten to kill people. They don’t murder anyone. And a violent protest by gays is seen only slightly more frequent than Haleys comet.
Yet, from the tone of a lot of these responses, you’d think those on the gay left were a bunch of criminal thugs. They’re not. They are good people.
Sexual promiscuity does not make someone a bad person. Blowing oneself up in a crowded cafe does.
I find the comparison interesting. I’ve always been torn because our gay ‘trailblazers” are loud and pointed and direct. I’d never march but we all benefit from their efforts in knocking down barriers. The sterotypes though are real and people assume we’re all outrageous. As conservative gays our only megaphones are blogs and Log Cabin Republicans. Not very great alternatives. Are right thinking Muslims in the same boat? Seems to me there is enough media to give more liberal clerics a public voice. But no doubt they’d become targets of terror. Even in the USA.
Another reason to thank our lucky stars for the Gay Patriots! You guys saved my life as I once thought that I was the only gay who was seeing things the way they really were and not what the media is feeding us.
If you guys wonder if you are making a difference then know this! YOU LITERALLY SAVED MY LIFE!
Thanks!
I think you are disparaging a lot of people in the gay community by making this comparison.
Not really. If you look at the deeds and hate rhetoric of people like Mike Rogers and John Aravosis, who have the assistance of HRC and LCR staff and are paid by Democrats like Louise Slaughter, “criminal thug” sounds rather kind.
I’ve always been torn because our gay ‘trailblazers” are loud and pointed and direct.
I’ve always been torn because our gay ‘trailblazers” are loud and pointed and direct.
Actually, Gene, they’re anything but.
The gay trailblazers are the folks who have shown their neighbors, friends, families, and coworkers that gays are NOT all drag queens or sexual fetishists.
The people who use being gay as an excuse for outrageous behavior are the ones who end up in front of the camera; that’s a cross that we all must bear. But if you are out and living your life like anyone else does, that’s the most powerful form of activism that exists.
Chase writes: “Sexual promiscuity does not make someone a bad person.” There are a whole lot of people –the majority in our culture– who think sexual promiscuity is a character fault of major proportions, Chase. Moderation, temperance, prudence are centuries-long American virtues. It is no small wonder why mainstream Americans shudder at extending marriage to gays.
If you read the WaPo article cited in one of Dan’s posts on PozGays and loneliness, you’d have read a line by one of the “experts” from the gay community who offered that gays have fought NOT to be defined by sexual action… it was as hollow a statement as your notion that sexual promiscuity doesn’t make you a bad person.
And God forbid the Gryph-ters of the world who opine: Men are men, we are anti-monogamous, sexual hunters and society can’t deny us the full bloom or fruitful (no pun) expression of our inner true self.. multiple partners, anonymous sex, full expression of sexual desires in public –why, anything less is a retreat from the Declaration of Independence’s promise of full, complete, total, unfettered sexual happiness… we MUST be allowed to pursue happiness even if it’s at the expense of others or society.
“Sexual promiscuity does not make someone a bad person.” Here’s one gay guy who says you’re full of baloney and that attitude is corroding our culture.
I’m glad there are patriotic non-psychotic Muslims out there, but they had better start showing up real soon. The comparison twixt gay activists and Muslim jihadis has a surface validity, but whatever stuff we homos have undertaken in the last 40+ years has been to allow us to exist both safely and publicly. Our vanguard has often been, shall we say, exuberant and exotic. And the balancing voices of folks like GP, etc did take a long time to find a platform (a platform too many of our gay brethren would like to turn into a guillotine). But the Muslims…no tiny and shamed minority they!
The incubation of bloody war and terrorism, yes. The center of a global threat to Western civilization (which includes gay flourishing), yes. So they’d better get off their halal asses and show they’re on the side of their new homeland. And too damn bad it they’re offended. Give us all a reason to think differently. And soon and loud and in large numbers. I won’t hold my breath, even as MM prays.
Islam is categorically different from other monotheisms. It is essentially a theocracy and always has been. It is as if God wrote the book of Leviticus and then gave Moses a gun and said, ‘Make everyone in the world do this’.
And in that world, gays are corpses. So next time someone wants to talk about “the Muslim brothers”, count me out. They’re not my brothers. They’re my enemy. Anyone wanna tell this quite rightwing homo why they’re not?
EssEm, while it might be easy to disconnect the thrust of Bruce’s post and take it in a different direction (unfortunately, like I did) I think the point of the post is that one of the problems in the muslim community is that the people speaking for Islam tend to be the more radical, more virulent, anti-American voices… they condemn the West, they demand conversion or death, they applaud the terrorism against Israel and do NOT want to see a modern, democratic Middle Eastern country succeed.
The parallel is to point to our community’s more rabid, anti-social, VictimHoodCard carriers like some of the lower-class-clan here in the GP world. It seems that they are the ones who grab the headlines… they get the MSM’s attention… they define our agenda… our cause… they’ve highjacked our community’s political interests to suit the purposes of the Democrat Party… etc.
The same can be said for the collective voice of muslims in the West. While there are violent voices in the West, the voice of moderate muslims seems strangely silent in these troubling times.
Even here in America, the more moderate muslim voice gets drowned out by the radical element… the center literally fears the rabid voices and power within its community.
While no one here can contend that conservative gays fear the lower-case-clan, the parallel exists in that our voice isn’t well represented in MSM. It’s taken our community 25+ yrs just to get up the balls to tell the GayLeftBorg they can stick it… and those guys are threatening by any stretch.
I think that’s the parallel Bruce was highlighting through Liz’s comments.
You have no enemies in moderate muslim America. We share an enemy in the radical MiddleEastern version of Islam. You’re right: those guys see it as a theocracy. Culture, religion and govt go hand in glove. But I can tell you the moderate muslim and arab voices I know have a shared common fear of those fundamentalists.
We’ve had muslims in our home, we’ve been in their homes, we’ve been more keen on debating playground equipment and Chilean reds and Wolverine football. They share our fear of Islamofascists.
“and those guys are threatening by any stretch.”
Please insert “not” at the appropriate position in that sentence.
EssEm, all three major religions are problematic. Published atheist Sam Harris in his book, The End of Faith, offers a blistering rebuke of all three major religions and cites them as the cause of many problems throughout human history…and rightly so. All three religions and their followers have been a problem when viewing human history in its entirety, through the centuries. One thing is a fact, regardless of the moderation and toleration proclaimed by followers of any of these religions, that toleration and moderation is incompatible with each religion’s own sacred texts. One only needs to read Deuteronomy and selected passages from the Koran to see that this is so. That said, once people learn to shed that which is religion, and stop killing and torturing because of their religious beliefs, the world will be a much better place.
Thanks for the responses, though I remain unconvinced. Moderate Muslims there may be, but is their presence significant? Hardly, at least not yet. Is it decisive? And when Muslim communities grow strong enough to exert political power, who will dominate them? The odds are not in their favor unless they take action and soon. (I remember what happened to the Socialists and the Trotskyites when the Bolsheviks decided to clean house). Given the differing natures of the gayrights issue and the Islamic Jihad issue, MM, they don’t have 25 years to get their act together. They’re already well past their due date.
Moral equivalence about Christianity, Judaism and Islam is a half-truth at best, Danielftl. Where have civilizations learned to reject coercion and tolerate their theological differences and even accept a secularized context in which to live? In historically Christian countries and in Israel. Muslim countries have not achieved this. There is a reason for that.
It is constant and mainstream doctrine in Islam that the Koran is unlike any other text. It is the direct revelation of God. It is not like the Bible for Christians. It is like Christ for Christians. So its injunctions are far more difficult to adjust to changing times than the Bible. And the extent to which Judaism has been a threat to non-Jews…well, when was the last time that happened? And though the Sam Harris’ of the world fantasize about a religion-free world, I see no evidence that such a world is in the offing. The religious instinct is deep in our species. And I might point out that Communism, an utterly atheistic idea, did more damage in 75 years –killing about 100 million people– than Christians (to say nothing of Jews) have done in many centuries. And it was no friend to gays.
Nice points EssEM, although I disagree with some of them. However, don’t imply that I support communism, which is not a religion, in any way. I said nothing of being a communist or advocating communism in any way. Atheism? That’s another story.
It certainly is true that humanity will not shed religion any time soon, if ever. I suggested to my spouse that perhaps in a few hundred years, religion would be irrelevant and he pointed out to me that it is unlikely that that would ever happen. Unfortunately, he’s probably right and of course his assertion certainly has the course of human history on his side as an indication of the future. How unfortunate.
Didn’t mean to imply you supported Communism, DanielFTL, but wanted to point out that non-religious, indeed anti-religious, belief-systems are clearly capable of massive lethality. Getting rid of religion would not get rid of that.
Michigan-Matt, just for curiosities sake, I’m going to write three statements, tell me if you agree or disagree.
1.) The gay men who died of AIDS back in the 1980’s and early 90’s got what they deserved.
2.) AIDS is God punishing people for their sins.
3.) Those with AIDS deserve no compassion, because they got the disease as a result of immoral behavior.
Dear Chase,
If God doled out viruses for every time a man sinned sexually…
Bill Clinton would be the new Typhoid Mary! 😉
(oh, snap! am i good or WHAT?!)
I’m reminded of some of the controversy surrounding the movie “The Color Purple”. I seem to remember that, on one hand, the black community was upset that Alice Walker had put a spotlight on domestic abuse in the black community. On the other hand the black community was outraged when the film, despite the numerous accolades, did not receive the recognition from the Academy it deserved. My mother says we’re (blacks) our own worst enemy. I guess it’s a lot easier to be seen as victims than as human beings.
There are times at which I feel this is true of the LGBT community. Should we be who we are with a real “‘f’ them” attitude, or present an image with which most people outside of the community would be comfortable? Do we only offer negative feed back for those who are working towards an admirable goal but whose methods need improvement, or do with balance positive feedback with constructive criticism?
Sure, the monogamous among us can move to the suburbs, setup house, and allow neighbors to see how normal we really are…But when the ballot initiatives start, will we take off of work to lobby our representatives? A guy might say in a post that he’s out, but not into the gay scene; is he still turned off and unable to use his talents to do some good for the community?
I suppose we do shoot ourselves in the collective foot.
I find it offensive that Liz believes that the gays who are suppossedly doing the talking for us are the crazy ones. I won’t deny that some of the outspoken gays may appear strange to the mainstream public but at least they’re speaking out. Where are the conservative gays? Afraid of being outed or perhaps stereotyped? Maybe if more of you gay conservatives had the balls to speak out then the public wouldn’t think that the majority of gays belonged to one of the sexual subcultures (they do have a right to exist).
Also; There are straights who are sexually promiscuous as well but you don’t see the public focusing on them because they’re “normal” at least. Quit down talking those who are brave enough to stand up for our civil rights and get out there and make your presence known if you’re not satisfied with their approach.
Liz may question why it appears that devout Muslims don’t speak out against the radicals; Where are the “true” Christians speaking out against the Falwells and Dobsons who have highjacked Christianity to promote their prejudice and homophobic agenda? It works in all the major religions.
P.S. Thanks for comparing some of us to suicide bombers. With fellow gays and lesbians like this, we are our own worst enemies.
#20 – Jeffrey, good snap!
#21 – James, great observation. I too remember the whole “Color Purple” controversy as well. And you are right – whether black, white, Hispanic, Asian, gay, straight, confused, whatever – sometimes we shoot ourselves in our own foot by claiming victimhood status.
#22 – Agreed.
Regards,
Peter H.
Chase at #19… I disagree with all three statements. Get serious, will you?
Further clarification on #22 (since I’ve gotten e-mails saying “WHAT ARE YOU SAYING???”):
I agree with the main thrust of the argument that we as gay conservatives need to speak out more and show mainstream America that what the GayLibLeft shows as being the “norm” in terms of subcultures.
However, I do disagree that we as conservatives are “our own worst enemy.” Actually, some fringe gays do act like suicide bombers – especially the ones who are consistently setting us back 20 years by screaming rather than engaging in civil debate.
Regards,
Peter H.
But when the ballot initiatives start, will we take off of work to lobby our representatives?
How about, instead of wasting time on our representatives, talking to the voters who actually make the decision — like our coworkers?
That is the CLASSIC gay activist mindset — suck politician cock and piss on voters. It also explains why, right now, we’re batting 0 for whatever on ballot initiatives.
Where are the conservative gays? Afraid of being outed or perhaps stereotyped? Maybe if more of you gay conservatives had the balls to speak out then the public wouldn’t think that the majority of gays belonged to one of the sexual subcultures (they do have a right to exist).
Well, you found us here, didn’t you?
And if you want to know why gay conservatives usually don’t bother, it has a lot to do with what leftist gays do when we arrive.
NDXXX, far enough observations all. Thanks for saying it. ditto.
26. I apologize for not being more clear with my comment.
First, NDT, let’s get something straight: That is the mindset that my African-American parents reared me to have; because I had that mindset long before coming out, it’s not unique to gay activism, and your comment offended me. I’m fully aware that gay conservatives are constantly verbally abused by gay liberals. I don’t think I’m one such gay liberal (at least I make a definite effort not to be), and would appreciate you showing me similar courtesy.
The entire paragraph was meant to acknowledge the importance of truly showing our neighbors (and families and co-workers) that we are no much different from them. Still, I felt the need to illustrate the ways in which the community fails to truly stand up for itself effectively. This may either be due an aversion to the community’s subcultures, or to internalized homophobia.
Many of the voters who vote against us don’t even really know us; that is just as true of many elected officials who would support anti-gay legislation. Showing our neighbors in the burbs that if you prick us we bleed is one step. We still have to present ourselves to elected officials in a proper way. Many of them will do anything…if they think it’s in their best interests politically.
The entire paragraph was meant to acknowledge the importance of truly showing our neighbors (and families and co-workers) that we are no much different from them.
James, I quote:
Sure, the monogamous among us can move to the suburbs, setup house, and allow neighbors to see how normal we really are…But when the ballot initiatives start, will we take off of work to lobby our representatives? A guy might say in a post that he’s out, but not into the gay scene; is he still turned off and unable to use his talents to do some good for the community?
It’s very difficult to show your coworkers that you’re not different when you’re not at work — because you took off to go lobby your representative.
It’s very difficult to show your neighbors that you’re not different when you miss the block party because you and a gaggle of drag queens and leathermen have to go chain yourselves in front of the capital.
Normal people, James, do not do this sort of thing.
And it’s not because they have more rights than we do. They simply make more of a priority out of work, home, neighbors, and family than gays do.
What the gay community has rationalized as “standing up for itself effectively”, the rest of the world calls “prostituting itself for camera time”. If a person is out, but not into the gay scene, I don’t care; that person, by being out, is doing the single most powerful thing that they can do to influence others’ opinions. They don’t need to be in some stupid costume shoving and pushing to get in front of the TV cameras; if anything, they’re doing us more good by NOT being there and spending their time interacting with real people who cast votes.
I’m sorry for offending you.
NDT, thanks for the apology.
In Georgia when we lobbied our General Assembly with regards to SR595–the proposed state constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage and civil unions–we dressed in business attire, sent notes to representatives through pages, and spoke with the representatives by calmly introducing ourselves and our partners, and asking they vote against the amendment. We also calmly told them how the legislation would negatively affect us. No drag queens, no leathermen, no circuit boys. It was all civilized.
I think the images you mention a) are a turn off to many people who support anti-gay legislation. And b) are a turn off to people within the community who do not identify with those images.
I believe one can still take an active part in the political process while educating co-workers, neighbors and friends. I do it myself.
Dear Peter H. (#25)
To clarify:
I did not state that conservative gays and lesbians are our own worst enemies, just the ones who compare your so-called “Fringe Gays” to people who blow themselves up in a public place and kill many innocent people in the process. It’s just a very poor analogy. You may not like the screaming queens but at least no one is killed in the process (except perhaps the screaming queen by a homicidal homophobe). Maybe they feel like they have to “scream” otherwise no one will listen. At least they are trying. We are all human and deserve equals rights.
Peace to All
What about the straight guy who got beaten up by a couple of hysterical lesbians a few months ago in NYC? Was he “asking for it?” Did he “deserve” it? If so, then you have a lot to learn about human rights for all. It is not a suicide pact.
Regards,
Peter H.
I’m coming in at the end of this thread I know, but a couple of things jumped out at me from the comments.
Being from Georgia (though having long since left), and having lobbied the state assembly when I was in college, I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t have mattered how the gay constituents dressed for their lobby visits. At least not in terms of affecting anyone’s vote. Of course, progress can be measured in terms of at least having shown a few people that we aren’t that different from them.
I’m trying to remember the last time I saw anyone do anything like that, and I can’t. Maybe being settled down with a partner and a son has kept me from attending many protests, but I haven’t read many news reports of behavior like that. I’ve seen some risque goings on at Pride, but Pride festivals are in a different category from protests if you ask me.
So, where has anyone done stuff like that above recently?
What I do know is that even when we do something like show up as families to roll easter eggs on the White House lawn with our kids — not looking much different from any other family there — we actually get flack for it from both sides. (i.e. We shouldn’t have gone as a group, we shouldn’t have organized, we shoudln’t have talked to the media once new leaked out, we shouldn’t have allowed our kids to be photographed, etc., though I was glad to be able identify other gay families and gather with them before and after the event). Nevermind that our families are always present at Pride celebrations. It’s just that we don’t make for exciting news footage.
But, at least a few people who’d never seen gay families before saw several that day that didn’t seem all that different from their own. And maybe a few minds were changed that might not have been otherwise.