Comments on: The Media, Ted Haggard, Hypocrisy & Human Emotion

By: oops

oops — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 19:02:49 +0000

Lisa, Oh, by the way, if we were “all gay”, the human race would be extinct. We all know how reproduction works, a homosexual cannot produce offspring! Hmmm. So, tell me how God would have ordained that! Doesn’t quite add up does it!

By: oops

oops — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:17:29 +0000

Casey, I have some very dear close gay friends so I am not trying to condemn anyone. I have alot of compassion for anyone in sin, or I wouldn’t be on this space. I am not the one throwing around hatred comments and judgement. I agree that you can have a close, happy relationship with the same sex, just like you can with the opposite. But, it doesn’t mean it has to be a sexual realtionship. That is what the bible clearly says is sexual immorality. God does not hate the person, he hates the sin. I didn’t say it, God did. So, maybe your anger ought to be towards God and take the issue up with Him. Sin is enjoyable, that is why we do it and battle with it. So , you too need to pray for clear revelation from God and not man.

By: Casey

Casey — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 21:20:38 +0000

Heya Oops – glad you responded (though since I’m abandoning this thread after this post… altogether too much scrolling to get here… you’re welcome to continue this discussion with me at shadowlover14@yahoo.com). You say that the passages of scripture used to condemn homosexuality are clear – I’d say don’t be so certain. Is it worth a little of your time and effort to do the research it takes to certify that when you tell somebody they cannot be happy in a relationship with somebody of the same sex, you are correct in doing so? Telling gays that God has “given them up” causes a lot of suffering, and I know that any compassionate person would not want to do so in ignorance. I’d like to ask that you read a few things, just so you know that there are other, valid interpretations of those passages out there – and then that you pray for conviction as to which interpretation is more in line with Christ’s teaching that all the law and the prophets hang on the twin commandments to love God and neighbor. Start with http://truthsetsfree.net/study.html. I think you might be surprised, particularly if you approach it with the desire to treat gays justly, to show mercy, and to be humble in the face of truth.

By: Nikko

Nikko — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:53:12 +0000

Yeah, yeah, yeah, bullshit. The real issue is “christianity” demonizing homosexuality, therefore causing all damaged souls to seek destructive outlets for their natural, god-given same sex desires, whether gay or bi. It’s not about Haggard making mistakes or not being perfect. It’s about religious hypocrites(powerful or not) preaching against homosexuality and enacting laws that punish homosexuality throughout history
that is just one of the very evil bloody legacies that “christianity” leaves in it’s wake…none of which jesus would approve of or particpate in. So to all pharisees and sadducee of the day, I say “throw ‘em to the lions!”. …in the name of Jesus.

By: Tim Hulsey

Tim Hulsey — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 19:23:12 +0000

I don’t think Haggard qualifies as a hypocrite (a term we throw around much too loosely). Haggard claimed that homosexuals behaved in a certain way, and were a threat to the stability of the family. Now we find that as a homosexual, he behaved in a certain way, and was a threat to the stability of his family. It seems to me that Pastor Haggard’s life has been pretty much consistent with his beliefs. A “liar and a deceiver” he may be, but a hypocrite he is not. In fact, he might have been a better human being if he had been a hypocrite.

VtheK: Gay people loved “Brokeback Mountain” for many reasons (even though no Gays or Lesbians were seriously involved or consulted at any stage of its creative development), but not because the film provided an object lesson on how to live as a well-adjusted Gay man. Jack and Ennis became Gay icons not because of their virtue, but because of their suffering. And since Gay and Lesbian communities are on their most basic level a reaction against the martyrdom of the closet, the narrative of “Brokeback” served to consolidate and reaffirm contemporary Gay identity.

By: oops

oops — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:59:50 +0000

Why is it that the hateful, spiteful, vulgar, and name calling comments only come from readers like Lisa? Maybe it is true conviction coming out of the closet! Huh!!!! We are all adults in a debate, act like one.

By: Lisa

Lisa — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:27:37 +0000

I think it is brilliant that the “moral elite” are revealed to be hypocrits every now and then. The Red States inhabitants believe they are getting people pure as teh driven snow when they vote Republican. They don’t believe they are getting closet homos or else they might just vote for the other Democratic candidate who they presume is either a homo or likes homos. The Republicans won the last election with the argument that they are more moral and should rule because of this. I’m glad some are revealed to be full of shit. It’s a nice reminder for the country that they’re not necessarily more moral and don’t have a monopoly on morality. People should know that because they vote Republican does not mean they won’t get someone who is spending their evenings getting f*cked in the butt, which is a-ok if you’re not married to a woman and lying to her about it.

By: Lisa

Lisa — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 18:19:54 +0000

Oops: Gays are not more out or in your face with their sexuality and sexual oriention. It’s simply that you and everyone else presume the world to be straight and so you are more likely to notice “acts of gayness” (e.g., hand holding or commenting about his boyfriend). And, because of the assumption of heterosexuality, gays must put it out there. Society has put them in that position. If the presumption was that everyone was gay, there would be no need to and you would be the one putting your straightness in our faces.

By: oops

oops — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 17:15:57 +0000

Casey, I respect your comments and also agree that there are scriptures in the bible that are very hard to interpret and understand fully. But there are also scriptures that are very clear with little room for misinterpretation. Micah 6 is a great script but I fail to see where it adresses the issue of homosexuality. On the other hand Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 speak of this issue. I really don’t know how you can interpret that any other way. Again, I am not here to judge you, you must seek for yourself as we all do. Sin is Sin and we all do it, but we must also recognize it and turn away. I would speak of murder, hate, and any other sin the same way. I by no means am trying to get the specks out of your eyes because my own planks are big enough for me to worry about. Some planks are harder to get out than others. We all need to take our own inventory of planks and be humble enough and teachable enough to get rid of them.

By: GayPatriotWest

GayPatriotWest — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 17:06:28 +0000

Casey in #98, thanks for quoting one of my favorite passages from Scripture. Sometimes I think Micah’s words get at the very essence of faith.

By: Pat

Pat — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 15:49:05 +0000

Michigan-Matt, thanks. I may just follow your suggestion. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to give it a shot, I would it appreciate it.

By: Michigan-Matt

Michigan-Matt — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 15:17:59 +0000

Pat writes: “Michigan-Matt, one more thing. I really do not wish to enter the religion debate”

and later

“It seems to me that any gay Christian (especially Catholic) has to have some degree of moral relativism, if they are having sex and continues to intend on having sex, when it is against Catholic teaching.”

Pat, if someone else here wants to explain that to you, they can. Maybe some research into the question by you would be more beneficial in the long term than any response I could offer.

By: Pat

Pat — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:25:37 +0000

Michigan-Matt, my having sympathy for people like Haggard and McGreevey doesn’t excuse their behavior and the hurt they caused their family. In fact, since McGreevey was the governor of my state, I am ticked of the crap he pulled here. He hasn’t apologized to the taxpayers he bilked (for appointing an unqualified boyfriend), or, as far as I now, repaid the state treasury for doing it, while he can clearly afford to do so.

Yes, Haggard should put his family’s feelings ahead of his own. But I don’t believe staying in this type of marriage is the way to go. His wife should have the opportunity to be with someone who loves her the way should be loved. But that’s her choice and her business.

I agree that no matter what childhood problems that Haggard or anyone else had to endure does not entitle them to a “get out of Jail free card.” By the time you hit your 20s, you have to stop playing the victim, get the help you need, and not hurt anyone else in the process. That’s what Haggard should have done. And now he needs to repair the damage he caused. As for the term gay, I usually don’t like to play semantics. I simply meant the term to mean he is attracted to men. Any disease he has is not because of being gay (or homosexual), but the way he dealt with it and is dealing with it.

NDT, it certainly would have been preferable for his family if this did not come out publicly. But it is Haggard’s fault. He became a high profile figure, and didn’t step away from it when he started his egregious behavior. I don’t know how he could expect a drug selling prostitute to keep this information between them. So the whole time he risked public disclosure.

As for this influencing the election, I don’t think it helps Democrats at all, even if they are somehow behind this public disclosure. One of the reasons I am against outing is that it doesn’t advance gay rights.

Michigan-Matt, one more thing. I really do not wish to enter the religion debate, but I am curious about one thing. And I apologize if this sounds snarky. It seems to me that any gay Christian (especially Catholic) has to have some degree of moral relativism, if they are having sex and continues to intend on having sex, when it is against Catholic teaching. Please explain how this does not conflict with your views.

By: Casey

Casey — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 07:52:10 +0000

Oops, my friend – we all, as Christians, think we know what scripture teaches us about God, and try to live in accordance with it’s teachings about right and wrong… however, the wiser among us try to remember that we see Him and understand His scripture about as clearly as we see through a glass darkly – the Bible is anything but easy to understand. History shows, time and again, how Christians of good faith have misunderstood scripture (slavery? the subjugation of women? polygamy? the Inquistion?) and how people suffer when, in an excess of zeal and certainty, we try to act on that “knowledge” in a judgmental manner. Perhaps that’s why Christ warned us to look to the log in our own eyes before saying anything about the speck in somebody else’s. There are many disagreements in today’s church as to what scripture is, what it means, and how to respond to that – and I think the lesson from all of this is that we should be humble in our use of the Bible. After my study of the Word, and much prayer and struggle, I’ve come to believe that the Bible says nothing against gays who would live in godly relationships with each other, marked by fidelity, monogamy, mutual sacrifice and love. Perhaps you disagree – if so, I think you’re wrong, but I’ll still call you brother. There’s been a lot of verses tossed around in this thread today, so I’ll add one more, from Micah 6.

6 With what shall I come before the LORD
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.

By: North Dallas Thirty

North Dallas Thirty — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 04:33:41 +0000

I would counsel him to view Brokeback Mountain, the movie, and read Gov. McGreevey’s extraordinary memoir. He needs to ask himself who he really is, rather than jamb himself back into the straightjacket of his old life.

Perhaps he prefers to be a loving husband and father who has confronted his issues…..instead of an abusive former spouse who threatens to beat his wife (Ennis Del Mar) or a philanderer who goes gay, then ditches his second wife and his kids to move in with his rich boyfriend (McGreevey).

By: oops

oops — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 02:23:47 +0000

Again, back to Ted. Yes we are all Gods children and He loves each and every one of us. Teds battle is that he knows right from wrong. He knows what the bible teaches and so should the 76% of people professing to be Christians. You either believe the bible and all its teachings or you don’t. If you only believe the parts that you like and discard the rest, then you have to discard the entire bible. Ted will find his way thru all of this, and when he does I hope we can all forgive him just like we are forgiven when we mess up.

By: fishface

fishface — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 01:58:21 +0000

It is sad that the proferred therapy for Ted Haggard should be a group of evangelical pastors like he tried to be. I would counsel him to view Brokeback Mountain, the movie, and read Gov. McGreevey’s extraordinary memoir. He needs to ask himself who he really is, rather than jamb himself back into the straightjacket of his old life.

By: MichiganGayPatriot

MichiganGayPatriot — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 01:53:42 +0000

From #53 to V the K #56:
In my original posting (#53) I said that what was sad is that in my Ex-wife has used her pain in a very destructive way. She took it out on our children. And I won’t go into all of it, as it is personal and that is not the purpose here, to air my family laundry… But, before, during and after my divorce… I DID NOT turn my back on my family. I have had FULL custody of my kids and raised these children on my own WITHOUT her help, without ANY Child Support from her, and have worked very hard to encourage our children to have a “good quality” relationship with their Mother.
She continues to put everything in her life, before or ahead of her children.
And that sole fact contributed heavily, to the affair that I had.
The fact that it was a gay affair, was indicative of the fact that before, during and after my marriage I am GAY!
I am NOT excusing my failure to maintain my vows to her.
My whole point to my writings here, revolve around the fact, that many people make some very bad and wrong choices because they believe the lies that Homosexuality is something that can be changed. Should be changed or worse yet…. that those who are Gay and Lesbian should somehow be scorned, condemned, treated with 2nd class treatment, and somehow “demonized” in society.
And the reprecussions of all of this is very sad in the lives of the people involved.
I hope that Ted Haggard will come to terms with his Homosexuality, see it for what it is… “the way he was created” learn to accept it and see it as good – and then build a life that is fully based in truth, honesty and integrity.
Then maybe he can start a great church that is Welcoming, Affirming and Open to ALL of God’s Children!
AMEN!

By: V the K

V the K — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 01:01:23 +0000

Ever notice how many on the Left have so many Rights?

And so few responsibilities, especially toward wives and children.

By: Michigan-Matt

Michigan-Matt — Tue, 07 Nov 2006 00:47:03 +0000

VdaK… and the latter also rewards you with relativistic morality, deontological utilitarianism and the “right” to do anything that pleases you because the DoI says “pursuit of happiness” is a God Given Right.

Ever notice how many on the Left have so many Rights? They gotta be making up as they go along.