Like so many, both in the U.S. and abroad, in columns, blogs, private conversations and other fora, I’m trying to grapple with yesterday’s events at Virginia Tech. We see the loss of human life and wonder how a human being could murder so many people he didn’t know, shooting his fellow students at random. We have seen such rampages before — and not just in the United State and not just in the past hundred years.
What is it that transforms one human being into a demon setting out to deliberately massacre his fellows? The gunman has been described as a “sullen loner.” But, others have experienced such isolation have not reacted by murder.
In one of the most thoughtful pieces I have read on yesterday’s horror, Dean Barnett writes:
. . . it would be satisfying if we could somehow make sense out of this senseless act. . . . And yet it’s in our nature to try to make sense of the things we don’t or even can’t understand. But I’ll tell you something: Searches for reasons and explanations here are going to bring us up empty. The painful fact is that terrible things happen. There are evil people who do evil things. There’s nothing more to it than that. There’s no policy prescription that can make things like this never happen again.
I guess that’s why it troubles me that so many, on both sides of the debate, are already spinning the massacre as proving the need for increased regulation of handguns or greater use of concealed weapons permits. Yes, that is an important debate, but no matter how we change our gun control laws, we will alas likely never succeed in eradicating evil from the human condition.
Let’s save that debate for another day. Today, we should reflect on what happened, remember those whose lives were cut short at such a young age and honor those, like Liviu Librescu, who sacrificed their lives so that others might live. This Israeli engineering and math lecturer, a man who was born in Romania and escaped the Nazis, blocked the doorway to his classroom with his body, giving students there a change to flee.
When Cathy Seipp died last month, I wondered at how unfair it seemed that someone could die so young. Most of yesterday’s victims weren’t even half her age.
What yesterday reminds us is that life is not always fair. That we can’t always make sense of things, much as we wish to.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the Virginia Tech community, particularly to the families of those who lost a loved one. For those who want to find meaning in the universe, yesterday’s massacre presents us with a great challenge. And while one man’s action may cause us to question our faith in humanity, actions of others, like those of Professor Librescu, give us hope for our fellow man.
– B. Daniel Blatt (GayPatriotWest@aol.com)
UPDATE: Gateway Pundit offers a tribute to the victims (Via Instapundit).
UP-UPDATE: Check out these two pieces (here and here) on Professor Liviu Librescu (Via Powerline).
UP-UP-UPDATE: In a column which shows a real understanding of the massacre, Charles Krauthammer writes:
Perhaps in the spirit of Obama’s much-heralded post-ideological politics we can agree to observe a decent interval of respectful silence before turning ineffable evil and unfathomable grief into political fodder.
Now that I’ve whet your appetite, just read the whole thing! (Via Instapundit.)
Here is a partial recounting of goals of the Illinois FOID (Firearm Owners Identification) program’s genesis (1968) and a comparison to NAZI Germany, courtesy of a Raymond Benwood:
In Germany, “a record keeping system was required for the transfer of handguns with the requirement that the records be kept for a period of 10 yrs and must include a description of the firearm.”
In Illinois, “any person within this state who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 yrs and must include a description, serial number, or other information identifying the firearm and must include the transferee FOID number.”
In Germany, “a valid permit was required for transfer of a firearm, commercial or private.”
In Illinois, “a valid FOID is required for transfer of a firearm, commercial or private.”
In Germany, “all records were subject to police inspection on demand.”
In Illinois, “on demand of a peace officer such transferor shall produce for inspection such record of transfer.”
In Germany, “the police maintained a list of the identities and personal information of all licensees.”
In Illinois, “the state police maintain a record of all FOID cardholders.”
In Germany, “license denial could be made by race, inimical behavior or those deemed unreliable.”
In Illinois, “Chicago requires registration of all firearms and acceptance is near impossible and reports of FOID denial for bad attitudes have been reported else where in the state.”
In Germany, “certain permits were valid for up to 3 yrs.”
In Illinois, “the FOID card is valid for a period of 5yrs.”
In Germany, “a prohibition for the transfer of a firearm and ammunition to adolescents existed”.
In Illinois, “a prohibition for the transfer of a firearm and ammunition to adolescents exists.”
Evil and senseless violence will always be with us.
Thanks for drawing attention to Liviu Librescu, these are the people we should be highlighting, those who in a moment of terror and unspeakable evil, stand up, and do the heroic thing – save lives, and give their own life so others can live.
It bothers me that people talk about the murderer as being a nutcase, or deranged. Unfortuantely he is much more than that, he is the embodiment of evil. This was not a sick man, this was an evil man.
My prayers to all the victims, family and friends.
I don’t think one can make sense of what happened yesterday. Evil will always be with us, and it is much more painful when someone is senselessly killed by such an evil person.
Enough with talk about this murderer being sick, this kind of depravity is not an illness – it is pure unadulterated evil set loose on the world, something we are forced to deal without warning.
Thank you for highlighting Liviu Librescu, this is a man to be honored and celebrated. At a moment of terror and mayham, Liviu sacraficed his own life in order to allow others to live. Thankfully there actually are more people like Liviu than the murderer – luckily they are not always called upon to give their lives for others – but throught their lives and deeds, they do much more good in the world.
All the discussion now seems to be what could have been done to prevent this. I’m not sure that anything could have been done, pointing fingers won’t help – the one to blame killed himself as well.
My prayers go out to the hundreds of people who were harmed by the actions of one person.
Sometimes, GPW…..things just don’t make sense.
And into the breach then steps faith and trust.
Absolutely correct, Dan. My one connection to the school is a former colleague who is a Dean there. As far as I can tell, his name is not on the list of those killed or injured but I’m sure he was close to some of those who were.
#2:
In what? A loving supernatural being that decides such atrocities should occur?
NDT – agreed on the faith and trust bit. I would add hope to the list.
Ian – faith is not always about belief in a being that makes everything rosy or calls down fire and brimstone from the sky. Sometimes it’s about belief that there is a purpose and a sense to things that we mere mortals fail to comprehend.
Ian, the faith comes in when one witnesses what Liviu Librescu did. We will never vanquish evil. When people like Professor Librescu step in and sacrafice their life for others – for me that is a sign that there is a good God in the world.
As HotMess stated, it’s not about a world being all rosy. It is about the good that shows up in the worst of situations.
Leah and HotMess, very well stated.
Regards,
Peter H.
#5:
Certainly HotMess, there’s lots that mankind doesn’t know and probably will never know about where we fit into the scheme of things. That said, in light of atrocities such as yesterday’s, I find the notion of a loving supernatural being in charge of and running the universe profoundly unconvincing. YMMV.
#9:
Leah, for me it is simply a sign that there is good in the world.
Ian, I grew up with a Jewish God, there are many terms associated with the Jewish God, and some of them are very harsh – as in judgemental, demanding, and yes also good. But I never had what I consider the ‘simple’ belief that God is always good – as opposed to the Devil – who is evil. Judaism is much more complex than that.
After the holocaust (which Professor Librescu survived) there were many who lost complete faith in a God. And I can’t blame them, the horrors that man can perpetrate on other humans.
But I have met many survivors that despite what they went through – found their way back to God. And in many ways found God in the good they were able to witness in all the horror that was the holocaust.
I think Elie Wiesel is the prime example of that. My High School teacher knew him well, right after the war in France. She said he was a broken man – years latter he rebuilt his life, and created a family, and I think all of us can agree that he has a powerful message of redemption to share with the world.
My prayer is that the hundreds of victims of this horrible murderer will find the same redemption. Many will do so through God, and for those who cannot accept a God, I hope they find peace in other ways.
repeat after me: “guns don’t kill people; people kill people. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people. Guns don’t kill people; people kill people.”
almost like “we’re turning the corner in iraq; we’re turning the corner in iraq; we’re turning the corner in iraq.”
sometimes, no matter how often they’re repeated, they still don’t convince.
Ian, for a deeper understanding of God and prayer go read this post, religion is never simple. http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/?s=The+pendulum+of+prayer
Another thought, if man were willing to ostrasize other humans for the evil they do, as quickly as they denounce God, we would have a very different world.
riw, keep the politics out of it.
ian, I understand how things like this can question faith. For myself, it affirms the gift of free will, whether it be abused like Cho did, or given up for others like Liviu Librescu did.
May you find solace from the pain we all share at this event, and may you find peace.
God honors the choices that we make. The good ones AND the bad ones. For whatever reason, instead of making us puppets or robots, God created us to be free agents. Free will can be either a blessing or a curse.
I’m by no means in favor of a theocracy. But back in the day, when people in our society understood the concept of individual free will, we seemed to have a whole lot less trouble with random violence.
Maybe the only part of it that is senseless is the part right before our eyes that we refuse to see.
May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.
May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.
Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.
He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.
The killer’s classmates were apparently quite concerned about the potential threat he posed. Assuming the plays are really his, they display an obsession with rage, violence, hatred, pedophilic anal rape and killing that’s quite chilling.
…like Liviu Librescu, who sacrificed their lives so that others might live. This Israeli engineering and math lecturer, a man who was born in Romania and escaped the Nazis, blocked the doorway to his classroom with his body, giving students there a change to flee.
I understand Mr. Librescu is described as a Romanian by birth and as an Israeli, but as far as I’m concerned he’s an American citizen.
Ian: he sounds like Mohemmed
[Comment deleted for violating community terms of conduct.]
Simplifying a criminal action such as this into a good versus evil paradigm is counterproductive. The real challenge facing mankind, in it’s effort to eradicate suffering such as this, is to understand mental health and how it’s physiological components effect the outward actions of an individual.
From all accounts, the killer in this crime was an extremely disturbed individual in need of serious psychological care. While we do not have the answers yet as to why someone commits such violent acts in the throws of depression, undoubtedly the answer is not as simple as chalking it up to evil. There are complicated physiological components at work. When we better understand that, I am certain the answers to the how and why will be become clear.
And just a quick follow-up… I see no conflict between punishment and the idea that possible physiological factors may be in play in these types of violent actions. Because whether or not one commits said act due to greed, lust or mental illness, the primary function of punishment in violent crime is to remove from society those that are a danger to others. Until there is a better understanding of the psychology behind such extreme violent ideation, that aspect of law enforcement will remain unchanged. Of course, should medical science one day be able to link violent behavior to certain physiological components, as I think is likely, I’m sure there will then be robust debate about the nature of justice.
So, the presence of tragedy in the world proves the non-existence of a just and loving God.
So, what of the presence of good in the world? There is much of it, if one bothers to look. If tragedy proves God’s non-existence, then what does good prove?
Faith is not a simple thing. Faith is a difficult thing. Which is why people who can’t incline themselves toward discipline, honesty, and delayed gratification can’t get it.
Chase: This is evil
And frankly, I dont want to subject myself to authorities to such an extent that they can psyhcoanalyize me at will for the purposes of determining if i’m going to wig out.
What kind of place would that be to live?
You’re asking for a totalitarian system which truly has a Thought Police.
I bet you’re a Leftist
The problem with what Chase is suggesting is that by the time it trickles down into the dim-witted educracy that is our public education system, it becomes administered by dingbats like the principal in Pennsylvania who sent a kid to jail for 12 days for supposedly making a bomb threat he was completely innocent of.
Under zero
toleranceintelligence schemes in place in public schools today, a normal kid who happens to draw a picture of a stick figure cowboy with a gun is treated exactly the same as the pyschotic loner with pictures of Osama bin Laden hanging in his locker who gets caught with rope, surgical instruments, and a list of jocks he plans on enacting revenge on.So, yeah, a certain amount of profiling to catch the obvious sickos sounds like maybe a good idea in theory… but the way it actually works out is dingbat school officials using it to punish and ostracize students for any deviation from politically correct behavior.
michellemalkin.com/
http://www.wispolitics.com/1006/Obama_in_Milwaukee_04_16_2007.mp3
From MM
The next time an MSM outlet describes Barack Obama as “articulate,” I suggest you send them this audio link. My friend Jessica McBride sent it along, and man, is it painful. It’s from his speech yesterday in Milwaukee–tying the Virginia Tech massacre to Iraq, Darfur, Don Imus, and everything but the kitchen sink. Jessica provides a bit of transcription:
He said we are a violence obsessed culture. “We glorify it, we encourage it, we ignore it.” In what honestly was a very boring, dry, rambling speech, he then listed a litany of examples of how violent we are. He excoriated “verbal violence” and specifically mentioned Imus but, tellingly, not Ludacris. Then, he mentioned violent crime in Milwaukee, and other examples of how violent we all are. In one bizarre example, he said that he was also talking about the “violence” of men and woman who lose their jobs to other countries. HUH?
And then he mentioned IRAQ…He started out by saying that our culture of violence is rooted in our supposed incapacity to understand we are all connected fundamentally as people (kumbayah!). We are still trapped in a belief that we can impose our wills on each other and differentiate ourselves and make ourselves feel better from one another because of the accidents of birth or race or gender, he said. We still think about our role in the world and foreign policy as if the children of Darfur are somehow less than the children here, and so we tolerate violence there. And then he said in that context:
“We base our decisions in terms of sending our young men and women to war not on the necessity of defending ourselves but the belief that somehow with military force we can achieve aims that should be achieved through diplomacy and alliances.”
Really, just try listening to the whole thing. This man wants to be leader of the free world.
#20 – I couldn’t agree more. Mr. Librescu showed more courage and self-sacrifice than most people would in that situation. May his memory be eternal.
Regards,
Peter H.
Whoa.
A totalitarian system which has a thought police? Understanding the brain as a biological organ has nothing to do with politics. Knowledge is not to be feared.
And as some people have suggested, I’m not talking about profiling based on behavior. I am certain mankind will one day be able to point directly within the brain, based on concrete scientific fact, to the causes of this type of extreme violent ideation and behavior.
That’s the type of knowledge we should pursue. Mankind’s knowledge of mental health is still in the primitive stages. The brain is very complicated.
Take for example, something that we all do each night: dreaming while we sleep. That’s just one of countless brain functions, seemingly simple, that is still shrouded in mystery.
Knowledge in itself is not dangerous, but how knowledge is applied is something else entirely. I hate to bring up Hitler, but the truth of the matter is, the Nazis applied science and technology to the task of exterminating people in massive numbers. In our present day, we face the prospect of cloned human beings being used and harvested as organ banks because of the amoral application of scientific knowledge. If scientific knowledge is not tempered by morality, it will inevitably be abused.
Chase: So to whom should we submit to be evaulated in your clinical evaulation once they figure out how to do ?
#25:
Well, I have faith in the arrogance of religionists and it’s not failed me yet.
I would define as arrogance the belief that human intellect is the be-all and end-all, and the refusal to acknowledge the existence or even the possibility of a higher moral authority.
I see arrogance, not to mention stupidity, in the dictates of egomaniacal Global Warming fanatics who think that by forcing everyone to drive hybrids and use fluorescent bulbs, they can have more influence on the planet’s climate than the giant fusion reactor in the middle of the solar system. I see arrogance in the notion that people can not be trusted to make their own decisions and require an all-powerful government to choose for them in matters of health care, retirement planning, access to self-defense, and so forth.
One thing that faith is supposed to teach us is humility.
I feel heartsick about the VT massacre. But what really annoys me is the bodies were barely cold when all sorts of activists jumped on their soapboxes & pushed their pet causes while using this tragedy to say “see, I’ve been correct all along, why don’t people just listen to me..etc” Just STOP IT PLEASE!!!! Pro-gun control, anti-gun control, prayer in schools, immigration, whatever, just cool it! Those crusades can wait for another day. I just want to reflect on this tragedy & pray for the victims.
Thanks for allowing me to get this off my chest.
#7 …Faith & Trust”
In what? A loving supernatural being that decides such atrocities should occur?
Dear Ian, it was not our God who did this evil deed at VT it was a human being. This human was struggling between the good & evil that battles for each of us daily. On this day, in this battle evil took the lives of many innocent people who for a moment descended into hell before ascending into the heavens provided they were not of the evil ilk also.
Ian, I feel your liberalism is your God and I will pray for you. However, should you stay on the other side, it is your choosing as we all have the choice in a free nation as that which we live. I will still pray for you & yes, Jesus still loves you.
“One thing that faith is supposed to teach us is humility.”
Very well put, V. And it also illustrates the lack of it by those who insist on labeling people of faith as “religionists.”
Regards,
Peter H.
Jimbo, I second your emotion. Thirty-three lives were lost. These were young adult lives that really had yet to be lived to their fullest. THAT is what is most important to remember.
However, we cannot wallow in “what if’s” and “shoulda/woulda/couldas.” We remember, we reflect, we cry, we pray, and then we go on. Life has to go on, otherwise we’d all be stuck in neutral or reverse, without the opportunity to go forward.
The posting by Leah about Elie Wiesel is particularly poignant for me. Ten years ago I went through a life-changing experience that almost shut me down for good. To help me pull myself up from my bootstraps, I spoke to former Holocaust survivors to ask their advice – namely, how did you go on to enjoy life after what had happened to you? How did you find the strength to survive hell on earth?
One person said it best: “I owe it not only to myself because I survived, but for all of those who didn’t make it out the gates of the camps alive. My happiness is their legacy. Every laugh, every dance, is a strike against evil.”
I think that about sums it up. Sorry for the Oprah moment, but remember that just when you think you can’t take any more, it is then you realize that you have that extra little spark in you – God, nature, whatever – that lets you live another day.
Regards,
Peter H.
#37:
He allowed it to happen.
Many Christians believe that the only way to get to heaven is to have accepted Jesus as your Savior. If that’s the case, then I’m afraid any victim, innocent or not, who has not accepted Jesus as Savior is going to stay in hell.
#37 – If liberalism is “God” to some people, then Ann Coulter was right all along.
Regards,
Peter H.
He allowed it to happen.
Indeed.
Had this never happened, thirty-two people would still be alive.
But the heroic example of Liviu Librescu, who saved that many and more lives, would not be before us.
Nor would the stark and chilling reminder that we must always be vigilant for the signs and portents of trouble that are wrenchingly clear in retrospect.
And I guarantee you that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Virginia Tech students who have a whole new appreciation for life…and love…and family…..and how all of that can be just ripped away in an instant without rhyme or reason.
One of the hardest things for God, I think, is the same as it was for my parents……allowing their children to make mistakes.
Quite profound that. God gave us free will (agency) for a reason. If God had wanted humanity to be mindless followers of His will, He would have created us to be mindless followers of His will.
It’s interesting that it’s the people of faith who don’t expect Divine Intervention to step in solve all our problems, and it’s those who have no understanding of religious faith who insist that that is exactly what God should do.
#23 – “Simplifying a criminal action such as this into a good versus evil paradigm is counterproductive. The real challenge facing mankind, in it’s effort to eradicate suffering such as this, is to understand mental health and how it’s physiological components effect the outward actions of an individual.”
Absotlutely. I commented about this in yesterday’s first thread. If don’t start adequately funding our mental health system in this country, incidents like these will become much more frequent, and much worse in the future….But try to convince any of the rightwingers. Hopeless endevor.
oops…i meant to type ‘If we’
And just how would a functioning “mental health system” have prevented this?
Be specific
#42:
Well, I suspect if your parents had allowed you to make fatal mistakes, their parenting skills might have been brought into question. I would also add that those V-Tech kids made the “mistake” of showing up for class that day. A capital crime for sure.
#44 – And once again, ndtovent shows us what the typical liberal response is to any crisis: throw more money at it.
If you had done some fact-checking, you would have found out that Cho’s parents sent him for mental counseling and evaluation in 2005. Unfortunately, the people in charge there did not keep him there beyond the usual observation time.
For you to draw some weird conclusion between the VT massacre and “adequate funding” is tenuous at best, laughable at worst. I suppose government-mandated health care would have prevented this?
(Crickets)
Yeah, right…I thought so.
Try again.
Regards,
Peter H.
Yeah, Pete, but throwing more money into social services is every liberal’s answer to every problem. When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
#39 Peter, thanks. I needed that.
Well, I suspect if your parents had allowed you to make fatal mistakes, their parenting skills might have been brought into question.
I think V the K answered this nicely above, Ian, but I will reiterate that; it’s interesting that it’s the people of faith who don’t expect Divine Intervention to step in solve all our problems, and it’s those who have no understanding of religious faith who insist that that is exactly what God should do.
That is because people of faith, who believe that God is omniscient and they are not, can take a much broader perspective on His actions. People who do not believe in God and have no understanding of religious faith are limited to their own human intellect, and thus are not capable of understanding a higher purpose.
It should be said that the whole point of faith is not knowing. Put another way, to have faith is to have doubt. As Dallas has said above (#50) “People who do not believe in God and have no understanding of religious faith are limited to their own human intellect, and thus are not capable of understanding a higher purpose.” The concept of God or a god requires a lack of understanding; if we truly understood the higher purpose of a/the deity, we would ourselves be God. When we understand God’s purpose, he ceases to be God. We will never know God because that is what we demand of a god.
#16…did you note the pro gun lobbies rhetoric that this shooting spree wouldn’t have happened if people could carry concealed weapons? what a joke; almost as bad as bushco’s presidency.
Who/what is bushco?
#53: Actually, yes – if VT police were able to carry firearms and there was an expert marksman on staff, this whole tragedy would have either been lessened or averted.
That is not rhetoric. That is a fact. Deal with it.
Next?
Regards,
Peter H.
#39 – Anytime, HH.
Regards,
Peter H.
Oops, that last number should have been #50. Mea culpa.
Regards,
Peter H.
#51:
This implies that people of faith possess a somewhat more developed intellect. So, if I start to believe in a god, say The Flying Spaghetti Monster, I am no longer “limited to [my] own human intellect” but suddenly “capable of understanding a higher purpose?” Or is this advance in intellect only operative for belief in certain god(s)?
Apparently, Cho the psycho was motivated by hatred of the rich, and his shooting spree was intended to slaughter as many of them as he could.
Sounds like about 99% of the posters at DailyKos, DUMB, and HuffPo. I wonder how long before some lefty will write a Ward Churchill-like praise for his “direct action” against the capitalist “Little Eichmanns” they are constantly bashing.
#58: No Ian, it would only prove that you don’t get it, and most likely never will. There is a Higher Truth than you are capable of comprehending, and because it is beyond your ability to comprehend even the mere fact of its existence, you belittle those who do. Perhaps, this is out of a sense of envy that others have found something that evades you.
I don’t bear you any ill will. I know that at the end of this Earthly life, you hope and expect to become no more than a few kilograms of rotting meat. And I respect your aspiration. I, on the other hand, aspire to become part of a higher plane of existence with a vastly expanded understanding of the universe. A decent man would respect my aspirations as much as I respect his, but as you have proven time and time again, you are not a decent man.
#59: Wow, is that rant an example of your Christian love and charity?
#61: No, it’s an honest evaluation of the state of the contemporary left.
As I think about faith, I am reminded of another fatuous lefty who used to post here. Remember Chet? The fellow who when challenged to voluntarily pay a higher share of taxes (since he favored massive tax increases), said that taxation had to be coercive because people would never voluntarily pay higher taxes?
It occurs to me that most of the people I sit in church with do voluntarily “tax” themselves with their tithes and offerings.
So, I think its truer to say, affluent liberals would never voluntarily pay higher taxes.
I’m learning that the attacker’s tape to NBC has a return label of “A Ishmael” (not sure how it is spelled) and he celebrates the WTC attack
He’s a jihadi
61: Nice try, trying to attack people by using thier virtues against them.
I know your tactic though, so it doesn’t work with me.
Is it fitting that Cho sent his package of hate to NBC, the Network of Bigots and Creeps? I’ve been telling young people for a while that if you don’t believe in a God, some human beings find no reason NOT to be rude, crude, ,selfish and hateful. When I was young and my little mind couldn’t comprehend many things complicated. My mom would tell us be good because God knows everything and eventually you will pay a huge price for being bad. Simple. And it caused me to pause before I did anything evil. Todays liberalism preaches “hey what’s bad? Don’t be judgemental. Religion sucks and makes people feel bad about themselves. Go for it. You gotta be you.”
If God is a scorekeeper, I want many more good deeds on my scoreboard than not. In my mind, if there isn’t a God, believing in God, keeps 100% of humans from being inhuman.
#57 Mine (#50) didn’t appear for a long time, so I now correctly reference Dallas’ #51 (which was #50 at the time). Magna mea culpa.
#58 People of faith also do not understand God’s purpose because to be human is not to understand God’s purpose. “God works in mysterious ways” is a religious prerequisite. A religious person who claims to ‘know God’ is one who doesn’t understand what a god is and one who is arrogant enough to deny God’s existence with his own ‘knowledge’. The religious may seek to understand a deity’s will, but will always be denied.
#65 Gene, you remind me of the agnostic rationality of Pascal: What does a human have to lose by believing in God? If he doesn’t exist, I’ve lost nothing to eternity; if he does and I don’t believe, I’ve lost everything.
Or something like that. However, I try to be rational and to do so is to exercise what I’ve been given, whether by God or by nature. If God does exist, I believe that he requires that we make choices that are best for ourselves — else, how are we to survive? And I believe that God as Judge would understand an action, a decision in the light of our (limited, if you believe) own human understanding. This, it seems to me, puts religious hypocrites especially at odds with the concept of a God who has granted free will, but demands that to fear him is to know him.
And that HardHobbit is the great difficulty in life — at least for those of us of faith. We understand that it is difficult, if not impossible, to understand God’s purpose, yet like Maria in the The Sound of Music, we yearn to “find out what is the will of God” so we can “do it wholeheartedly.“
#64: “trying to attack people by using thier virtues against them.”
So true. People who have no moral standards at all always seem to attack those who do when they fall short of them. But in this case, there was nothing un-Christian about pointing out that there is much hatred on the left, that such hatred frequently is reflected in violent rhetoric (any HuffPo thread about Dick Cheney should suffice as an example), and that leftists in the past have excused acts of mass murder as justifiable direct action against capitalist oppression. Ward Churchill’s “Little Eichmanns” essay for example.
Here’s a nice comment from the tribe of left-wing pacifism: Lefty blogger suggests Michelle Malkin should be shot.
The religious hypocrisy evident in this thread is staggering.
I was speaking to my Rabbi yesterday, and of course the subject of this awful murder came up. I posited that people of faith have more tools at hand to come to grips with the situation. I’m not sure religion would have changed the murderer. but would have an effect on the survivors.
His response was counter-intuitive. He said nothing about faith, or God’s purpose. He simply said – there is community, there are other people who will reach out and help. Which is very true – I have seen time and again when a tragedy in our community, be it severe, illness, sudden death of a young person. People who are not closely connected to the person, come out, because it is what one does.
On the other hand, a friend was dying of cancer – she lingered in bed for over a year. Of course her nearest and dearest came. And people like me, who felt this is what our religion asks of us – visit the sick. But many people, who one would have thought were friends, never showed up – because it was too painful.
We can’t control events in our lives, God is not out there to make the life of religious people easier. He is giving us the tools, the community, the realization – that when bad things happen, we have to act in a Godly manner -it is up to us to bring his presence into the world.
HH at 65, our parish priest puts it this way: we all have the power to believe in God and act justly, those who don’t simply have allowed their ego to get in the way of generally accepted truth.
Many on the Left here suffer from an overly strong ego and healthy impulse toward self-interest. Scratch an athesit and you’ll find someone who is very confident about the world order and it usually begins with the center of the universe on them. Not always, but enough to see a trend in the culture. It’s why many gays aren’t religious and take particular exception to people in their midst who are religious… that self-interest and ego is usually unchecked for gays today. It’s why many in the general public don’t trust them with positions/institutions that require giving of self… like marriage, teaching youth, priesthood, etc.
Very true. It has been my experience that the most obnoxious, self-centered, and ill-mannered people I have ever met have been those who profess “I don’t need religion to tell me how to act, I have my own moral code.”
#70:
I was wondering when you’d resort to that hoary old line about atheists having no moral standards. Well, I certainly plead guilty to not having some of your “moral standards.” Like cheerleading a war of aggression that the leader of the largest Christian church decried as one “which could not be morally or legally justified.” Nor do I have the “moral standard” that permits misleading our nation into supporting that unjust war. Nor the “moral standard” that states that torture is acceptable. No, I don’t share such “moral standards” and I’m glad I don’t.
#58 – You mean there is no such thing as The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
DAMN!!
Regards,
Peter H.
Wars of conquest are (in most circumstances) morally wrong, but that is not what is happening here. There is nothing immoral, in itself, about a war of self-defense. Torture for the sake of punishment or entertainment is wrong. But there is nothing per se immoral about using coercive interrogation techniques when the object is to save the lives of innocent people.
Anyone who isn’t blinded by moral relativism can clearly see the difference.
Nor is there anything immoral about removing a genocidal dictator from power. Arguably, the immoral choice would be to leave him in power for the sake of convenience.
#65 – I’m wondering why psyCho sent his stuff to NBC as well. He’d have gotten more sympathy from CNN, and if he’d sent it to Fox News he’d have reached more people because of their higher viewing audience. (SARCASM)
For NBC to air this POS shows exactly to what lengths the MSM will go to retaining their grip on America. I guess like attracts like.
Regards,
Peter H.
Hey, Pete, I read a comment in another blog noting that despite Cho the Psycho’s disturbing behavior, the university administration was powerless to do anything about him.
Too bad he didn’t call anybody a “nappy headed ho.”
#69 – On a lighter note, I prefer “My Favorite Things.”
Regards,
Peter H.
Wow. How did the NEA miss that one?
Right now Pajamas media runs an ad titled “Shot the Rapper” on this site.
Culture of death indeed….
I wait for the obligatory “I have no control over my own site” defense
Here’s a surprise. The little sociopath, according to his manifesto, was also a Bush-hater:
Ian, as a strong Catholic and a supporter of JPII, I can tell you that I had problems with his selective revision of a Just War –particularly when, on a visit to Hamtramk (MI) as a cardinal, I listened to him explain that armed aggression was OK if the goal was to topple the corrupt Communist regime in Poland… armed aggression by the Polish people AND their allies in the Free World. But Just War tests like who is the target and how closely is the Pope allied with them doesn’t cut it.
The concept of a Just War is one rich and steeped in Church history and politics. JPII simply got it wrong –it wasn’t a fallible issue. Many more learned church scholars have argued since JPII’s death that he misunderstood the concept and misapplied its lessons to Iraq. Please read RJNeuhaus over at “First Things” for an excellent, concise and proper interpertation of Just War as applied to GW1 and GW2.
Besides, I thought you were a Pope bigot? Why use his quotes now if he is so wrong (according to you) on so many other things? Hmmmm. Oh, that’s right: opportunity.
#68 to fear God’s retribution for being “bad”, for 50% of mankind is enough to keep us from becoming inhumain is my point. Faith and goodness is enough to keep the rest of us from evil.
#74 MM, while I appreciate what you state and I agree somewhat, I have trouble with the generality that the existence of God is a generally-accepted truth.
Now, I could write many megabytes about this that you wouldn’t want to read, so I’ll try to be brief; this is gonna be a long one. I write this respectfully.
First, I understand the use of generalities and stereotypes — without them, no one would be able to converse. But I struggle with the concept of the existence of god/God (I’ll use uppercase to show respect) and I cannot accept as an argument that his existence is determined by the number of people who accept the idea. While I agree there are more religious people in the world than not, that doesn’t justify a faith, any faith. And that’s why I cannot accept your use of ‘truth’. Perhaps there is an existential human instinct that questions the universe — one that we call ‘spirituality’. There is also a natural human tendency to engage in a more scientific, empirical questioning in the search for meaningful answers. Religions with which I’m familiar (not too many) teach that the former necessarily trumps the latter, i.e. we cannot know the answers but to seek and never find is the basis of our religious/spiritual quest on Earth. It is the Tree of Knowledge, after all, that constituted the object of the first temptation. Some might call a reliance on human intelligence ‘ego’, but others would refer to a never-ending, never satisfied search for truth based upon an unknowable (by definition) spirit a neurosis. I mean no disrespect. I think if someone ‘finds God’ and discovers that the respective teachings of a particular religion work for them, great. I respect your faith and your adherence to it. But there is no such thing as ‘faith as truth’. Since a religion without faith is an oxymoron, there can be no such thing as a religious truth because faith doesn’t deal with those things that can be seen, tested, and verified using scientific means.
I understand that I’m using terms that reveal my perspective as entirely non-spiritual, but perhaps a good illustration of what I mean is the global warming debate. In an area where science should be the only determinant, people accept what they’ve been told because it has been repeated so many times and by many in high places whose reputations we have been told to respect and/or whose offices we would like to honor. Despite the lack of evidence, dire warnings are issued and apocalyptic scenarios are forwarded by those who have everything to gain from a frightened public. We correctly identify the believers as misguided because we demand a scientific explanation and we identify the promulgators as charlatans because we assume they know better or don’t care to because the projected gains outweigh any of the difficult science needed to prove their case. Is my objection to an echt religion, meaning that we deem truly religious in the (as you state) ‘generally accepted’ realm really so different? Forgive the weaknesses of the analogy — it’s the best I can do while at work and multiply distracted.
Second, I do have to include that I’m particularly annoyed with religious hypocrisy. The religion to which I once adhered (Presbyterianism) taught me that to be a Christian is to live as if one is always a witness to one’s faith. That means treating friends and enemies alike with a love that transcends the necessarily evanescent arbiters of friendship and not and to remember that ‘they will know we are Christians by our love’. (I can’t remember where in the Bible that is found. Is it John? It’s been over 20 years since I was in a church.)
The GayPatriot blogsite is a good example. I don’t come here for religious discussion (and I’m awfully uncomfortable submitting this for posting), but there is quite a bit of discussion about it here. I accept that because many on ‘the right’ are people of faith. What I don’t accept is the constant reminding of certain participants of their particular adherance, the demands that it must be respected, and the presumptuous and pretentious damning of those who don’t share it or one like it. This is what non-religious people like myself really don’t like about people of faith and the mixing of faith and politics. Now, I don’t want to be misunderstood, so let me be very clear.
1) I respect and welcome everyone, just as long as you extend the same respect and welcome to me.
2) I respect someone’s faith even if I don’t share it, but it doesn’t make you a better person without better behavior. Faith without works is dead and every action is a barometer (in both human and spiritual terms) of the depth and seriousness to which you adhere to it.
3) I agree that some on ‘the left’ have co-opted atheism as a kind of religion, but in the worst sense. However, I don’t agree that self-involvement or self-interest is necessarily evil or that such interest and religion are mutually exclusive. I have met atheists (one that I particularly like) that are the nicest, most moral people one could ever whish to meet; morality is not the sole purview or the monopoly of the religious, certainly. Do people take self-interest to an extreme? Absolutely. Do some take religion to an extreme? You bet. I could claim a moral agnosticism here re. same, but I cannot simply pretend that the two are of similar moral weight as I doubt you can. Yet the nature of faith is that it is not an external force that one responds to — it is an epiphany, an internal awareness or realization and an acceptance that human intelligence isn’t capable of satisfying the spiritual questions many have. That’s fine, but I don’t place my faith in doubt (sorry for the dialectic contradiction).
I could go on and on and much to everyone’s relief, I won’t. I’m sure I’m opening myself up to all kinds of attacks in posting this, particularly since I’m rambling, not editing what I’m typing, and am not comfortable at all with the subject matter. However, before anyone starts damning my lack of aspirations or my lack of decency, I hope that we can all remember our commonality: humanity and, hopefully, some values. There are standards we all, religious and non, should attempt to live up to and I readily admit my failures. Is my irritation with hypocrisy a reason to attack religion? Far from it. Hypocrisy itself does a far better job of attacking a claimed religion than anything I could say or do against it. Perhaps what I sense is a lack of grace, I’m not sure.
Finally, MM, you’ve always treated me well. If that has involved forgiveness, I especially thank you. You are a credit to your faith.
#87 I’m not sure what you mean. Retribution keeps 50% from doing bad things and the other 50% attracted to goodness? Sorry if I’m not reading you clearly.
In rereading my post to which you’re responding, I would clarify by stating that once someone accepts a religion and its teachings, then it is incumbent upon them to behave accordingly. To me, this means that there is a standard (not necessarily higher, but often so) to which a person of faith must aspire. That standard must be embraced in order to be meaningful and to be reminded of it is, I would think, not to be threatened with a damnation but to be given the hope only bought with redemption. At least, that’s my understanding. God sure is strange.
Making sense of the tragedy is easy. Librescu should not have sacrificed his life. He should have carried a gun and made the killer sacrifice his life. Good people should carry, so the evil are the ones sacrificing from now on. Thats the meaning.
#86:
Well, I’m in a catch-22 situation: since many here apparently believe that, as an atheist, I have no moral standards, you will no doubt dismiss any moral arguments I make as an atheist. Then if I attempt to argue based on Christian pronouncements on moral issues, I am dismissed because I do not subscribe to Christian beliefs. That said, I do believe that those who profess to be devout Christians ought to be challenged when it appears their beliefs are in conflict with Christian principles. Now, you state that JPII was wrong on his criticism of the Iraq war based on the Just War principle. You refer to Neuhaus but neglect to mention the new Pope’s position which by all appearances is the same as JPII’s:
Is Pope Benedict also wrong on the Iraq war?
#85: Well, he also compared himself to Jesus Christ. What’s your point?
This implies that people of faith possess a somewhat more developed intellect. So, if I start to believe in a god, say The Flying Spaghetti Monster, I am no longer “limited to [my] own human intellect” but suddenly “capable of understanding a higher purpose?” Or is this advance in intellect only operative for belief in certain god(s)?
Of course, Ian.
As K’ung Fu-Tze put it centuries ago, the difference between a wise man and a fool is that the fool thinks he knows everything; the wise man thinks he knows nothing.
If you are a follower of educational theory, Piaget makes it clear that the development of the mind progresses from knowing only the concrete to understanding the concept of the abstract.
Faith is, in its deepest sense, the ability to move beyond solid and into not only accepting, but embracing, uncertainty.
#74 MM, I wrote a lengthy response to you, but it is not out of moderation or has been determined unworthy (or was lost). I guess that’s one way to discourage comment.
HH> I’ll look for it. Thanks for the heads up.
Ian, I don’t recall ever writing that because someone is an atheist they have no morals nor any standing to discuss morals, moral agency, etc.
I’ve known lots of moral atheists. They also tend to be self-centered to a fault. And driven predominately by ego. And in a constant, perpetual battle with the world around them. You can discuss morals all you want, but as an avowed atheist, don’t go looking for support on one issue from someone you don’t support nor heed on a million other issues –like the Pope. It’s intellectually dishonest… like the Left being concerned about the troops while undercutting American resolve at home… or Democrats worried about the military being stretched too thin when what they’d like to do to the military is cut them off at the knees.
Wanna talk morals? You need to start from a place that is honest and not just snarky taunts. Good luck getting there.
An atheist V-Tech professor’s on the massacre.
Pete #80: NBC (and all the broadcast networks) have much larger audiences than Cable news channels
Ian 91: Well the whole christian world outside of Roman Catholicism would not regard anything JPII said as most people outside of RCC do not reconigize the office as Pope as being legitimate.
So, does John Edwards.
Frankly, I don’t believe anyone here has held themselves out as an example of a perfect Christian. Part of that humility thing is acknowledging our human shortcomings and working to overcome them.
Morally, which is worse, the temporary discomfort inflicted on terrorists that liberals abhor, or the partial birth abortion procedure they full support?
HH, you should be very proud of comment 88. I’ve reread it three times now, very thoughtful ideas. Those of us in the religious community do have such discussions among ourselves – but rarely does the opportunity arise to hear the opinions of a thoughtful non religious person.
When facing the outside world – we tend to show a united front, we are far from that – many of the issues you mentioned are ones we grapple with daily. Of course all of us know wonderful, moral, good athiests. Those people tend to show us the respect we hope we show them.
But when discussions of faith arise – we find ourselves arguing with those who dismiss us out of hand (yes, Ian, I’m refering to you). It is wonderful to hear from someone like you who respects people of faith, and rightfully so demands respect for your own world view.
It was inevitable: Left-wing website justifies VTech massacre.
And if you don’t want to soil yourself by going to Donkeypunched, anti-idiotarian rottweiler is on the case.
#101 Leah, thanks very much for your thoughtful response and for your respect. I’d like to think that there are values we can all share, whatever the evolution of our respective spiritual quests. Despite my misgivings, I do believe that we all possess the ability to love and to be loved and with that, both the desire and the reponsibility to act accordingly. This is innate. Is this from God? Because we are all capable of great harm (such as the young murderer at Virginia Tech), is this also from God or is this something else, something we call Evil? To be honest, I find this all a bit too pat an answer. Many (probably many people of faith) considered Copernicus evil when he postulated that the Earth orbited the Sun. Perhaps a bad analogy, but ‘God’ and ‘Evil’ are answers that seem just a bit too easy when we try to make sense of what is great, what is tragic, or what is simply incomprehensible. We can’t comprehend the Why, so we convert to the Whom in an attempt to make sense. Well, at least perhaps some do.
Seriously, I do appreciate your response. In fact, I appreciate all your thoughtful posts and regret I have neglected to let you know until now.
P.S. I’d like to clarify that while I don’t consider myself a religious person, I’m not really an atheist, either. ‘Agnostic’ is closer, but when I listen to a great piece of music by a genius, I confess that there must be more than just ourselves, that it is mysterious, and I want to know what it is.
HH, Judaism is very different from Christianity – some of the religious ideas mentioned here are very foreign to me. Good and evil – in Judaism they are not seperate but equal forces. Everyone has the good inclination, and the bad inclination. Sort of like the angel and devil on ones shoulders. We spend our lives trying to balance out the two – but never is there a time when we completely vanquish the evil – it is something that must be controlled. Unfortunately in the case of this monster killer – he did completely vanquish the good.
There is a very powerful idea that if we didn’t have evil – we could never appreciate the good. If you look at Jewish heroes in the bible – each and every one of them are flawed – they are basically human – not saints. And they pay the price for their sins – Moses never entering the land of Israel – King David, being betrayed by his sons, and never being allowed to build the Temple.
Is there inate goodness in all of us? I hope so, but it needs to be nurtured and fostered. I’ve raised three sons, I can tell you, it is no easy job to ‘civilize’ children. And though many in the west are wonderful good people – I attribute that in part to the fact that they grew up in Judeo-Chirstian societies. They themselves may be athiests, but so much of the culture is full of Christian teachings.
It is similar today to the many children who are not being vacinated against childhood diseases. (don’t get me started on those parents). At the moment they are safe because they are a minority amongst a large population who is innoculated. But if many more parents follow this stupid trend – you will see a rise in measles, mumps and chicken pox again.
The same will happen with the moral fiber of our society – actually it already is.
Believe me, I have a lot of critisizm of religion, I am so thankful to live in a free secular society that allows me my religious freedom.
In my previous post I only said ‘secular’ because it was very clear to me that you are probaby an agnostic – but didn’t want to label you against your wishes. And secular seemed a less loaded word than Athiest.
Leah: I was raised Catholic (consider myself non-denomination protestant now).
I have always viewed things in the way that you put it. Good and evil.. people and people’s use of things are capable of both. I tend to think man’s inclination is toward evil and it takes some work to stifle that and work towards the good.
There’s a part of the Book of Revelation that is little understood.. its the letters to the 7 churches. Some speculate that each letter denotes the condition of the “church” from the beginning to the end.
The last church is scolded for being so comfortable in the little world they find themselves in that , even though they believe in God, they really dont care about it one way or the other… it’s like an accessory. They like their material goods, and dont want the boat rocked. God has other plans though, he’s going to vomit them out of his mouth… (then the End Time happens, the church is no longer to be found on Earth in Revelation after this point.)
This is the letter to the last church:
Rev 3:14
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following
“This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot! So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth! Because you say, “I am rich and have acquired great wealth, and need nothing,” but do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked, take my advice and buy gold from me refined by fire so you can become rich! Buy from me white clothing so you can be clothed and your shameful nakedness will not be exposed, and buy eye salve to put on your eyes so you can see! All those I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent! Listen! I am standing at the door and knocking! If anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come into his home and share a meal with him, and he with me. I will grant the one who conquers permission to sit with me on my throne, just as I too conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. The one who has an ear had better hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
CNN had a woman on the air claim that the Korean shooter guy is gay.’
bwwahhaaahah
http://signorile2003.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-media-about-to-defame-gays-in-ever.html
Leah,
I’d like to congratulate you on having raised three sons. Wow. Although I’m sure it was/is challenging, it has likely been very rewarding as well. From your writing, I assume they’re very fortunate and their success is your success.
I not only think your vaccination analogy a good one (Good vs. Evil in society), but I agree with your position on grounds of social health. I am fond of fiction, particularly classic literature and our conversation reminds me of how fond writers are of using the duality of human nature as a theme. Perhaps like Gollum in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (to use two examples of popular fiction that I obviously admire), the murderer at Virginia Tech gradually descended into extreme alienation and became so wilfully isolated, bitter, and resentful that redemption was simply beyond him and just as Gollum schemed to seize the Ring at all costs, Cho schemed his immortality. Both are/were small and mean, but capable of great harm.
Though I agree that there is the capability of what we conventionally term ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ within all of us, my secularity (to use your well-chosen term) cannot accept where the two are considered forces or spirits or unknowable inspirations. Something I alluded to in a previous post is our tendency to anthropomorphize (and here I mean ourselves generally, not including you specifically). Although this is a convenient and often very effective way to teach and communicate, it has its drawbacks. The fables of Aesop are a famous examples, but I suspect that many of our present-day animal rights activists were brought up watching the animated features of Disney and others, projecting human qualities and sensibilities that animals simply don’t possess, thus allowing the projection of a kind of self-preservation coupled with an innocence we associate with the films’ target audiences. German philosophy anthropomorphized society, deeming it a kind of intellectual entity of its own to be poked and prodded, with its individual members merely fulfilling the organic tasks necessary for the Being’s survival. It was not a stretch to then begin worshipping society instead of God. And this is probably why I hesitate to attach a kind of mysterious quality to Cho’s murderous rampage. We don’t understand why he did it, so we assume it’s due to Evil or Satan or Beelzebub or the Ayatollah of Rock and Rollah when in fact there are probably a variety of very logical reasons why he made such a monstrous choice and committed to it. It’s rather like the religious hypocrite who finds the explanation “Well, I never claimed I’m perfect — but I am forgiven!” awfully convenient when what they lack is simple self-control and a bit of humility.
I am very much in agreement with you re. our freedom to follow (or not) whatever religion we choose. And unlike many who aren’t religious, I agree completely that many of our social and political values have their roots in the Judeo-Christian tradition. May that tradition never die.
Music of Michael Jackson is going to live for ever no matter what, I think It’s became a legendof ‘pop’, He was so stressfullast time and has lots of problems, poor guy – that was probably end for him – so sad all we can do is keep his music in our hearts.