Well, well, well.
Take that Ahmadinejad! Bush and Maliki just played a long-term checkmate on your ass.
The United States and Iraq have spelled out basic principles for a future bilateral relationship as a first step to normalizing ties between Washington and Baghdad. VOA’s Michael Bowman reports from Washington, the declaration, issued Monday, envisions a long term U.S. security commitment in Iraq after a United Nations mandate for multinational troops expires.
The White House says President Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki signed the declaration during a teleconference. An adviser to President Bush on the war in Iraq, Lieutenant General Douglas Lute, says the document reflects the two leaders’ common belief that a long term relationship is in both nations’ interests.
The declaration sets forth a U.S. commitment to support Iraq’s democratic institutions, to promote its economic and financial well-being, and to support its security forces. Specifically, the United States remains committed to training and equipping Iraq’s police and military, to combat terrorism, and to help safeguard Iraq from foreign threats to its territory.
It appears the Iraq=Germany are the more apt analogy than the old, tired, John Kerry, MSM version of Iraq=Vietnam.
-Bruce (GayPatriot)
I dont see how this checkmates Iran.
I dont know what Bush is up to.. but this Annapolis peace meeting is a huge mistake. Throwing Israel under the bus.
Why hasn’t Iran been taken care of yet.. it’s outrageous that theyre still working on thier bomb.
Iraq will never be secure as long as the clerics run Iran.
The solution is not a never-ending hold-the-US-military-hostage agreement.
Irans govt must be destroyed , and soon.
We can’t afford doing prolonged status-quo with this type of war.. the Islamic jihadis are not sitting by idlely.. and they do have the initiative.
After our little stint of re-making the Middle East is over, I hope we pull troops back from almost everywhere and let Europe , Russia, China deal with thier neighboring black holes of failed states.
Making 100-year treaty to stay in iraq is a huge mistake. If he’s signingthis thing to send the message we’re not surrending any time soon, that’s fine.. but i really doubt our govt is capabile of such competent propoganda.
Destroy Iran, and leave.
I hope the Maliki government can survive its internal divisions. Whether Maliki is not the best man for the job is inconsequential; he is the guy who has the job. We either back the process of developing a republic in Iraq or we join the naysayers and pull out the troops and throw Iraq to wolves.
This accord tells Syria, Iran, and others that the republic in Iraq is a vital US interest and that we will be stand behind it. It worked in Germany and Korea and it would have worked in Vietnam.
The agreement also hands Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Hillary, Obama and John Edwards the complication of announcing that they would cancel it.
Exactly. Not all y’ung-uns know this, but the U.S. actually won the Vietnam War; North Vietnam basically caved for the 1973 peace treaty. Then in 1975, a strongly liberal, Democratic Congress cut off all U.S. aid and commitments to South Vietnam and *that* is when North Vietnam re-opened the war and triumphed, with all the boat people / genocides / etc. that followed.
The sad lesson: Democrats, take heart. It is never too late to throw an ally to the wolves, or throw away the fruits of U.S. successes!
I don’t see how forcing the Israelis and Palestinians to actually make peace is “…throwing Israel under the bus” unless you are an unreconstructed Zionist. The only Arab negotiating-point that’s potentially-fatal is Israel is a right-of-return to Israeli-soil. Economically and geographically the Israelis and Palestinians are tied to eachother at the waist; and the sooner they come to a stable two-state or even three-state recognising this the better. Once they stop killing each other they’ll realise that a joint common-market or customs-union stretching from the Jordan to the Sea would benefit all sides.
Israel made a fundemental geopolitical mistake of not immediately annexing the West Bank, Gaza and the Sinai and handing very Palestinian an Israeli passport as a fiat accompli; rather than holding the Territories as a “separate place”. Demographically, it would have put a stake into the artificial racist construct of Israel as the “Jewish state”, but it would have brought realitive peace and security decades ago.
If the Palestinian issue can be taken off the table, this would lessen tensions immeasurably, and cut much of the rhetorical underpinnings out from under the Arab moderates’ and Muslim nationalists’ agitation. Iran really doesn’t care about the plight of the Palestinians, it’s just good nationalistic propaganda. Iran doesn’t really care about Iraq other than it’s future threat-potential to Persian nationalism. Iran doesn’t care about Afghanistan other than it places the US Military on three sides of Iran.
That is such a gross distortion of the Viet Nam conflict I don’t know where to begin.
Well first off.. I am a Zionist.
Secondly, all your theorizing is nice, but the bottom line is this… the Palestinians do not want peace.
The Palestinians are the vanguard of Islamic Jihad. They believe that when the Jews return to their land, the Muslims will united and kill all the Jews.
In accordance to this religious belief, the Palestianians have been brainwashing their youth since the Olso Accord to become maryters.
They have chosen war. There will never be peace until the Palestinians are met in war and defeated.
If you want to see some videos of what they have on the TV in Palestine, see this
http://www.youtube.com/user/pmwvideos
Here’s a good example. This is a pre-school show featuring a Mickey Mouse-lookalike named FarFour.
Video
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1442
Transcript
Al-Aqsa TV, April 6-13, 2007:
Host Saraa, a young girl: “Sanabel, what will you do for the sake of the Al-Aqsa Mosque? How will you sacrifice your soul for the sake of Al-Aqsa? What will you do?”
Sanabel, young girl on phone: “I will shoot.”
Farfour, a Mickey Mouse character in a tuxedo: “Sanabel, what should we do if we want to liberate…”
Sanable: “We want to fight.”
Farfour: “We got that. What else?”
Saraa: “We want to…”
Sanabel: “We will annihilate the Jews.”
Saraa: “We are defending Al-Aqsa with our souls and our blood, aren’t we, Sanabel?”
Sanabel: “I will commit martyrdom.”
[…]
Farfour: “We’ve said more than once that becoming masters of the world requires the following: First, to be happy with our Arabic language, which once upon a time ruled this world.”
Saraa: “Of course.”
Farfour: “Second… or maybe that’s it?”
Adult host: “Farfour, I heard you speaking in English.”
Farfour: “Yes. How are you, Saraa? I hope to be good time.”
Saraa: “What’s with you, Farfour? Why are talking this way? Didn’t we agree to speak in literary Arabic?”
Farfour: “But Saraa, this is the language of the advanced world, the language of the world that understands and invents things, isn’t it?”
Saraa: “No, Farfour, you are wrong, because you don’t know that the Muslims are the basis of civilization. If not for the Muslims, the world wouldn’t have gotten to where it is today.”
[…]
Farfour: “My dear youngsters, we’re back. We always miss seeing you on your weekly program ‘The Pioneers of Tomorrow,’ in which we together are placing the cornerstone for the ruling of the world by an Islamic leadership.”
Egyptian Cleric Sheikh Muhammad Nassar Tells a Group of Children About Child Martyrdom in the Early Days of Islam
The following are excerpts from a children’s program hosted by Egyptian cleric Sheikh Muhammad Nassar, which aired on Al-Nas TV on June 15, 2006. Sheikh Nassar is identified by Al-Nas TV as a preacher employed by Egypt’s Ministry of Religious Endowment.
To view this clip, go to: http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1185 .
Sheikh Muhammad Nassar: “Let’s listen to a very beautiful story to learn about the courage of a child, and how, when a child is brought up in a good home, and receives proper education in faith, he loves martyrdom, which becomes like an instinct for him. He can never give it up.
“This story, my friends, is a beautiful story. Abu Qudama was the commander of the army of the Muslims, when they fought the Byzantines. The Byzantines had a very, very large army, whereas the Muslims did not have many fighters. So Abu Qudama walked down the alleys and streets, among the poor, calling: ‘Come join the jihad,’ ‘Come join the jihad.'”
[…]
“A woman said to him: ‘Abu Qudama, I have a boy. I will give him to you. Take him with you to war.’ He asked: ‘Is he still a boy?’ She said: ‘He is 15 years old, and his father was martyred in the previous war. Since his father’s martyrdom, he sits day and night, praying that Allah grant him martyrdom.’
“Abu Qudama was amazed: What is this? Is it conceivable that a boy, ever since the death of his father, instead of being sad about losing his father, is happy about his father’s martyrdom, and moreover, he wants to be martyred like his father? Allah be praised.
“He said to her: ‘Bring me the boy.” When the boy came, and asked him: “What’s your name?’ and the boy answered: ‘Sa’id.’ He said: ‘Son, your mother said that you want to join me in war. Tell me, son, did your mother make you come here, or do you really want to be martyred?’ He said: ‘By Allah, the only thing I have wished for, since my father’s martyrdom, is to become a martyr.'”
[…]
“They began to strike them, and the battle grew stronger. Abu Qudama looked around and saw little Sa’id. Sa’id called Abu Qudama, who said: ‘This is not the time, Sa’id.’ He said: ‘Abu Qudama, listen to me.’ Abu Qudama said: ‘Sa’id, we are in the middle of a war.’ He said: ‘Abu Qudama, give me a few arrows. I have used up all my arrows to kill infidels. Give me a few arrows, Abu Qudama.’ Abu Qudama was very pleased with Sa’id’s courage, with his jihad, his perseverance, and his defiance of death. So he gave him three arrows.
“Sa’id shot the first arrow, killing one [infidel]. With the second arrow, he killed another infidel, and with the third, he killed a third. Then he was hit by an arrow, and fell to the ground as a martyr. He achieved the martyrdom for which he yearned.”
[…]
“A little later, he drew his last breath. Sa’id, the 15-year-old child, was martyred for the sake of Allah. He died happy.
“My friends, when a martyr dies, his clothes serve as his shroud. They shroud him in his clothes, and they do not wash him, because he is washed by the angels.
“So they brought Sa’id, all wrapped in his clothes, dripping with the blood of martyrdom. Blood was flowing from his wounds. They dug a small ditch in the ground like a grave, and they put Sa’id in it, and covered it with earth. Then they began to walk away.
“All of a sudden, the grave shuddered, and they were frightened. What happened? The grave shuddered and ejected Sa’id. They said: ‘Allah be praised, what’s going on?’ The corpse got out of the grave all by itself. They were amazed, and said: ‘Allah be praised.’ Abu Qudama said to them: ‘Wait just a moment. Let’s try again. How can we possibly leave this corpse like this?’ So they put him into the ground once again, and covered him with earth.
“After they covered him and began to walk away, the ground shuddered, and threw out the corpse again. They were all frightened, they began to shiver. Allah be praised. Allah Akbar. Then they all stood there in amazement. Abu Qudama said: ‘We cannot leave him like this. This is my beloved Sa’id. He instructed me to bury him when he dies, and to stay with him, and not tell his mother anything. I must do it. I must bury Sa’id. I cannot leave him. Bury him again.’
“So he dug the grave himself, and said: ‘My Lord, reveal this thing to us, my Lord. We want to bury him, my Lord.’ They put him into the grave again, and began to walk away. Then the earth shuddered once again, and the corpse got out. So they said: ‘Allah Akbar. This is Allah’s doing.'”
This is the result of the indoctrination:
The NYTimes reports 100,000 in Gaza protested the Annapolis Peace conference. One of the youths, a “Hamas protester in Gaza, Asma al-Fayoumi, 17, said: ‘There is a division among Palestinians. There are those after food, life, those that are materialistic, like [Palestinian President Mahmoud] Abbas, and there are those like us who are seeking life after death.’ The large turnout in Gaza pleased her. ‘There are those who still enjoy good conscience,’ she said.”
No it isn’t, Houndentenor.
In fact, I have a longtime close friend who is a longtime political liberal and Army captain (see – I know not all liberals are anti-military), and, after first giving me much the same reaction as you, he went off and did his own research and then came back to me and said “You’re right; I apologize; that is how it happened.”
So Houndentenor, try doing some new research with an open mind. The central points you ought to find, again:
– The 1973 peace agreements preserved South Vietnam – with an actual deployment of zero U.S. combat troops, by the way – but with U.S. aid commitments.
– A strongly liberal, Democratic Congress cut that aid in 1974-75.
– In 1975, the North re-opened the war and THEN Saigon fell in 55 days, as well as Pol Pot triumphing in Cambodia.
A couple very quick (thus, not necessarily best) Google results to get you started, Houndentenor. First, from the History News Network:
And then they give details. Read the whole thing. Also, this article in Foreign Affairs from former Defense Secretary Melvin Laird is must-read, because of its intentional relevance to the Iraq debate.
So again, Houndentenor, if you say:
…then all I can say is, you had better “begin”, if you really mean to stick to that position.
ILC: We had won even before then:
In his book Giap indicates that NVA troops were without sufficient supplies. Morale was low. General Giap and the NVA viewed the Tet ’68 offensive as a failure, and they were prepared to negotiate a surrender. Then they heard Walter Cronkite (former CBS News anchor and correspondent) on TV proclaiming the success of the Tet ’68 offensive by the communist NVA. They were amazed to hear reports of the US Embassy being overrun when they knew the NVA had not gained access. Further reports indicated riots and protests on the streets of America.
According to Giap these distorted reports were inspirational to the NVA. The American media were doing more for their cause than could any military victory. The NVA leadership decided then to persevere, anticipating that the protesters in America would help them achieve a victory they could not win on the battlefield. This decision was made at a time when the U.S. casualties were fewer than 10,000, at the end of 1967, beginning of 1968.
Vince P, I am uncomfortable with grouping all Palestinians together. I am of the impression that a significant number of Palestinians would just as soon settle down and get on with being a third world entity. Further, my impression is that there is a large group of Palestinians who are keeping the anti-Israel hatred stoked up.
My experience in the area is with Egypt and Turkey where the government has to keep a hard grip on their Islamic radicals.
My impression is that there is a possibility that the Palestinian government, with international support, can crack down on Hamas. If I am mistaken, I would appreciate being directed to useful sources.
#9 – Vince, good point. The story of Vietnam is the story of successful American military efforts, undermined or thrown away by the Democrat-bureaucracy-media complex. It is why so many Vietnam veterans (e.g., Kerry’s fellow Swift Vets in 2004 – but many others) are active in the fight to prevent the same thing happening today, with our military’s gains in Iraq.
I didn’t say all. I get so tired of this “you’re generalizing”… No kidding I’m generalizing!
If this was true, then they’d stop launching rockets every day. They’d stop sending suicide bombers. They would give up their demand to flood Israel with refugees for the purpose of demographically destroying Israel.
With complete sanction of the leadership.. effectively it’s Palestinian govt policy to perputuate this hatred. And we’re supposed to reward them?
The Palestinian govt IS Islamic radicals. HAMAS is the majority faction in the govt.
How naive are you? They been saying this since 1993 and haven’t done one thing yet.
If anything HAMAS is going to crack down on FATAH.
Plus the Palestinians have stooped so low as to state that there was never a Temple on the Temple Mount and that the jews have no history there.
This is from an intererview with Abbas in 2000
So when you take all over this in its totality I think the burden of proof is on you to demostrate that the
– The Palestinian Authority wants a geniune peace
– The Palestihian Authority is preparing the Palestinians to reconcile with Israel and foster good relations.
Vince P,
Not to beat a dead horse, but your words were: “the Palestinians do not want peace.”
If this is so, then case closed. Nuke ’em.
I am doubtlessly naive, but I yearn for a bit of hope in this mess. Ataturk and Sadat were dictators who saw the utility in flipping their countries away from the fundamentalists and establishing a state separate from religious control. While I would readily write off the Gaza Strip, I am curious to know why all hope is lost for a co-existing Palestinian state on the West Bank.
If Zionists have the key to the solution, I would be interested in knowing the outline, or are we to understand that the Palestinian problem is permanent?
Again… if you want to make the case that the Palestinians are geniunely interested in peace, then please make it.
Keep in mind you have to account for the death worship, the brainwashing, the English/Arab double speak, the historical record that the Palestinians never fullfill their obligations.
Hope isn’t enough. We all know Israel would “make peace” today if it could… but you cant’ make peace with people who want to kill you.
Read my comment 6 and 7 above.
Do you think they’re joking , watch the link I gave at YouTube… look at the evil brainwashing that they’re doing to kids. They’ve been doing this for over 10 years.. an entire generation raised with the burning desire to kill Jews. They’re doing what Hitler did.
This is a good article. I’m only giving the first few sentences:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/11/stalkers-for-pe.html
Peace Stalkers vs. Annihilationists
I once had a boyfriend who liked me more than I liked him. He was a musician – with me so far? Good. I thought it best to end things rather than lead him on. He would not take no for an answer. No matter how firm and definite – he pursued with singular determination. He did not hear a word I said. No matter how many times. And so I refused to see him or talk to him. He would wait outside my building ………. until one day the cops had to be called because he had a rifle.
Fast forward Annapolis.
What part of NO don’t we understand?
The Palis, the Islamazis, the Arab world has been unequivocal in their refusal to recognize Israel. Every year, every decade, every war, every intifada ………. it has always been the same. Always. The Saudis would not even shake hands with Israel at Annapolis. Wishing and hoping and dreaming and praying and land givebacks and billions in aid and arms and food and medicine and all those delicious carrots the West is so good at handing over has made no difference. None. Today the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran calls for Death to Israel and Death to America.
And still we stalk. No matter what. We suspend our disbelief. We stalk for peace. We won’t fight for peace. We will beg, cajole, buy off, sleep with evil men, fund terror, ignore everything the enemy is insisting on …….. we will do everything, except what must be done to create a real peace – fight. Self defend.
The only time Israel had a modicum of peace was after she beat back the invasion of five Arab countries during the six day war and crushed the enemy. That’s the fact. And the international communitay has been punishing Israel ever since.
Vince P,
I do not carry a brief for the Palestinians. I know the deadly games many of them have internalized. I have had direct contact with Hamas propaganda and studied their methods. I know Palestinians are pariahs in their own Arab world.
On the other hand, we have no clear guidelines for the borders of the Land of Israel. My sentiments lie with the Israelis defining the borders of the Land of Israel by conquest and then standing pat. But that requires unity from within and the military strength and civilian mettle to protect, defend and keep the homeland.
Israel was treated to the first intifada and was introduced to suicide bombers after their concessions at Oslo and Wye and the Hebron Protocol. The Camp David and the Taba conference concessions brought the second intifada. The Lebanon and Gaza concessions were rewarded with years of rocket attacks, kidnappings and a Second Lebanon War.
The 2005 Disengagement Plan of 2005 to evacuate Israeli settlements in Gaza and the West Bank has been left in suspension.
I can understand that Israel is tired of giving up land and reaping nothing but more strife and further demands as a result.
Israel’s ham-handed execution of the Second Lebanon War has left it in a state of self-doubt. Meanwhile, we conservatives admire their willingness to strike preemptively. (Syrian nuke assembly facility.)
Bush is trying (yet again) to see if some lines can be fixed on a map and the world powers will go along with them. A partitioned Palestine is an open wound to any Palestinian state. Meanwhile, many Palestinians insist that Palestine should encompass the state the Brits drew out in 1845. That means no Israel.
I ask again, what is the plan from the Zionist perspective? Is peace an impossible dream? If the US commits itself to protect Israel, what are the borders of Israel’s sovereignty. We know the borders of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. Out problem is identifying the land of Israel ………….(the state of Palestine.)
How can there ever peace is Hamas is in power? It depends on whether Hamas gets tired of being proxies and cannon fodder for Syria, Iran and certain princes in the House of Saud.
Is it axiomatic that if Israel were going to go into the West Bank and Gaza to clean out the hornet’s nest, would Israel have to kill them all?
I hope this gives a better picture to the scope of my confusion and understanding. I have had a lot of hands on experience in this area of the world. It is an area of true challenge and advised by Kipling’s admonition that: East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet. (But that was before Ataturk discovered Raki and the advantages of western development.)
Heliop: Wow..thanks for the message.. Yeah it gives me a different light..
Well I can’t speak for official Zionismdom since I’m not part of any group.. I just think Israel has a right to exist in that sense.
After years of studying this problem and realizing that the conflict is not as local as it might appear I do not have a humane , easy solution.
I dont see the Israel conflict as being about Israel. It’s the humiliation of Islam and future revenge by Islam.
They hate Israel for serveral reasons… one of which is their religious teachings tht tell them to hate them.
And the other , and most important one, is that eventually all land must come under their control.
Israel is the first stop on a global jihad.
They believe that their Mahdi will move the Caliphate to Jerusalem and the worldwide Jihad will begin.
This is why the Palestinians are willing to live like animals as they struggle against Israel. This is why Palestinans in other arab countries are kept in decades-old camps.. the Palestinians are the Muslims’ human weapon against the Jews…. to be kept in purpetual anger and misery and resent against the Jews.
You ask for my solution? Bomb them.. Kill them… Drive them as far away as possible. Hurt them so bad that they will never even think about engaging in another attack.
Inhumae? I guess… but that’s what they will force us to do.. or else they will do to us. And the longer we sit on our ass and do nothing. the more bloody and deadly the coming war will be.
Understood. I, too, am very fearful of radical Islam. I also know that Islam is pliable and subject to backing away from their radical aspects. The Caliphate in Spain and Bulgaria, for instance, was rather docile. Our challenge is to stomp out radical Islam. We must attack CAIR everytime they start up their manure machine. We must make certain that Wahhabist game plans don’t get implemented in schools in the US. We must carefully watch the Muslim enclaves here and abroad.
Indeed, I am a First Amendment adherent. However, I see no reason why any church (mosque) should deny having their activiites observed. The right of sanctuary is one thing, preaching the contravention of the rule of law of the nation is another.
I want Israel to survive and be a beacon of democracy. The idea that radical Islam will go away if Israel falls is pure fantasy. Radical Islam must feel the sting that al Qaeda has found in Iraq. That means that overwhelming force coupled with fed-up Islamists will be necessary. I am not sure how Israel would be able to attract and inspire fed-up Islamists.
Watch this news story about the reaction to Annapolis by the people in Gaza, Samaria and Judea… there is no way these people want peace
http://mavericknewsnetwork.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/11/palestinians-pr.html
So much of our troubles are from lack of education. ILC is exactly right about Vietnam. But tell me how many college graduates could tell you the truth about Vietnam? 1 out of 100? And the Palestinian issue..when I see their reactions to peace conferances, their reaction to 9/11…..how do you battle simple ignorance?