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	<title>Comments on: First U.S. Soldier Discharged For Homosexuality</title>
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	<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 01:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2710</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2710</guid>
		<description>Bravo, Ted!  I guess my time in the Navy colored how I read that.  &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensign_%28rank%29" rel="nofollow"&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt; even confirms what you say here:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Ensign is a junior rank of commissioned officer in the militaries of some countries, normally in the infantry or navy. As the junior officer in an infantry regiment was traditionally the carrier of the ensign flag, the rank itself acquired the name. When navies began, the junior naval officer took the same name.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Good commentary about Monhart's role as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo, Ted!  I guess my time in the Navy colored how I read that.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensign_%28rank%29" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a> even confirms what you say here:</p>
<blockquote><p>Ensign is a junior rank of commissioned officer in the militaries of some countries, normally in the infantry or navy. As the junior officer in an infantry regiment was traditionally the carrier of the ensign flag, the rank itself acquired the name. When navies began, the junior naval officer took the same name.</p></blockquote>
<p>Good commentary about Monhart&#8217;s role as well.</p>
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		<title>By: ILoveCapitalism</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2709</link>
		<dc:creator>ILoveCapitalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2709</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In the Royal Navy of this period one reason that officers where punished when caught with enlisted was that since since the refusing the advances of an officer was “mutiny”, a hanging offense, it was legally considered forcible-rape since the enlisted could not legally refuse ANY orders of an officer if iron-discipline was to be maintained.&lt;/blockquote&gt;That makes perfect sense.  Fraternizing is/was treated as a crime because otherwise, an officer could exploit an enlisted guy up and down.  And, barring clear 'magnifying' circumstances, the enlisted guy (Monhart) would be presumed innocent of whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In the Royal Navy of this period one reason that officers where punished when caught with enlisted was that since since the refusing the advances of an officer was “mutiny”, a hanging offense, it was legally considered forcible-rape since the enlisted could not legally refuse ANY orders of an officer if iron-discipline was to be maintained.</p></blockquote>
<p>That makes perfect sense.  Fraternizing is/was treated as a crime because otherwise, an officer could exploit an enlisted guy up and down.  And, barring clear &#8216;magnifying&#8217; circumstances, the enlisted guy (Monhart) would be presumed innocent of whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted B. (Charging Rhino)</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2711</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted B. (Charging Rhino)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2711</guid>
		<description>The military term "ensign" was traditionally used for junior infantry or cavalry officers.  Now we would call them Second Lieutentants  or in the Bristish cavalry units, Cornets.  It derives from those who carried the ensign or unit banner.  In the 18th century it was used especially for newly-commissioned youg officers without prior military-training or experience....but often with some social standing.  If Ensign Maxwell was from a politically-connected family it would doubly be a serious matter, for to challenge a gentlemen-officer's word begged both perjury and a dueling-offense...all taken very seriously.

One aspect of this viewed from an 18th-centuruy P.O.V. is that while "rank hath it's privledges", there's the issue of military discipline.  In the Royal Navy of this period one reason that officers where punished when caught with enlisted was that since since the refusing the advances of an officer was "mutiny", a hanging offense, it was legally considered forcible-rape since the enlisted could not legally refuse ANY orders of an officer if iron-discipline was to be maintained.

If it had been Enslin's personal valet or servant...military or civilian...which officers of that period had to maintain their gear, cook, etc. in the field; and he hadn't challenged his fellow officer-and-gentleman' word and reputation there probably wouldn't have been any court-martial.  Perhaps just a word-aside in-private to be more discrete.

Eighteenth-century martial concepts of "honor" and "discipline" were deadly affairs, where nowadays similar incidents would be "merely" contentious or litigatous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The military term &#8220;ensign&#8221; was traditionally used for junior infantry or cavalry officers.  Now we would call them Second Lieutentants  or in the Bristish cavalry units, Cornets.  It derives from those who carried the ensign or unit banner.  In the 18th century it was used especially for newly-commissioned youg officers without prior military-training or experience&#8230;.but often with some social standing.  If Ensign Maxwell was from a politically-connected family it would doubly be a serious matter, for to challenge a gentlemen-officer&#8217;s word begged both perjury and a dueling-offense&#8230;all taken very seriously.</p>
<p>One aspect of this viewed from an 18th-centuruy P.O.V. is that while &#8220;rank hath it&#8217;s privledges&#8221;, there&#8217;s the issue of military discipline.  In the Royal Navy of this period one reason that officers where punished when caught with enlisted was that since since the refusing the advances of an officer was &#8220;mutiny&#8221;, a hanging offense, it was legally considered forcible-rape since the enlisted could not legally refuse ANY orders of an officer if iron-discipline was to be maintained.</p>
<p>If it had been Enslin&#8217;s personal valet or servant&#8230;military or civilian&#8230;which officers of that period had to maintain their gear, cook, etc. in the field; and he hadn&#8217;t challenged his fellow officer-and-gentleman&#8217; word and reputation there probably wouldn&#8217;t have been any court-martial.  Perhaps just a word-aside in-private to be more discrete.</p>
<p>Eighteenth-century martial concepts of &#8220;honor&#8221; and &#8220;discipline&#8221; were deadly affairs, where nowadays similar incidents would be &#8220;merely&#8221; contentious or litigatous.</p>
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		<title>By: John W</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2714</link>
		<dc:creator>John W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2714</guid>
		<description>Sorry I can't go back quite far enough to give you an eye witness account of what happened at Valley Forge, but during WWII "discreet" was the word.

Fraterization among officers and inlisted men were forbidden in the States but Overseas we were buddies. Anything other than that though had to be "off base".  Actually, as far as I know, there were very little sexual activity among the men. Reasons were that we were kept very busy, there were no place to go "off base or out of camp", and we were all buddies which means that
they were like brothers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I can&#8217;t go back quite far enough to give you an eye witness account of what happened at Valley Forge, but during WWII &#8220;discreet&#8221; was the word.</p>
<p>Fraterization among officers and inlisted men were forbidden in the States but Overseas we were buddies. Anything other than that though had to be &#8220;off base&#8221;.  Actually, as far as I know, there were very little sexual activity among the men. Reasons were that we were kept very busy, there were no place to go &#8220;off base or out of camp&#8221;, and we were all buddies which means that<br />
they were like brothers.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2715</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2715</guid>
		<description>ILC:  Well the Continental Navy had some ships afloat harassing the Brits during the Valley Forge encampment from 1777-1778.  I doubt that Maxwell came from a sunken vessel, but co-ordination with Washington sounds plausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ILC:  Well the Continental Navy had some ships afloat harassing the Brits during the Valley Forge encampment from 1777-1778.  I doubt that Maxwell came from a sunken vessel, but co-ordination with Washington sounds plausible.</p>
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		<title>By: ILoveCapitalism</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2704</link>
		<dc:creator>ILoveCapitalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2704</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I am curious what a Navy Ensign was doing at Valley Forge&lt;/blockquote&gt;I wouldn't read anything into it.  The U.S. barely had armed forces in that war.  Times were always desperate.  To the extent there was a Navy, it would have been co-ordinating with Washington on supplies, activity, etc.  Or Washington might have had refugees (so to speak) from a recently defeated Navy ship.  Etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I am curious what a Navy Ensign was doing at Valley Forge</p></blockquote>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t read anything into it.  The U.S. barely had armed forces in that war.  Times were always desperate.  To the extent there was a Navy, it would have been co-ordinating with Washington on supplies, activity, etc.  Or Washington might have had refugees (so to speak) from a recently defeated Navy ship.  Etc.</p>
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		<title>By: The_Livewire</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2703</link>
		<dc:creator>The_Livewire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2703</guid>
		<description>Personally, I think if he'd offered to resign, he'd have been transferred somewhere else.  Officers were in short supply.

As for Baron Steuben, I'd read somewhere once that he was more 'discreet' he likely was, but then again I think he was too good.

And AGJ, you're right, with fratrinzation rules in the UCMJ, DADT isn't needed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think if he&#8217;d offered to resign, he&#8217;d have been transferred somewhere else.  Officers were in short supply.</p>
<p>As for Baron Steuben, I&#8217;d read somewhere once that he was more &#8216;discreet&#8217; he likely was, but then again I think he was too good.</p>
<p>And AGJ, you&#8217;re right, with fratrinzation rules in the UCMJ, DADT isn&#8217;t needed</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2713</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2713</guid>
		<description>Pepe:  Good point.  Since we mostly have just speculation here, I am curious what a Navy Ensign was doing at Valley Forge and that he was the one who discovered Enslin and Monhart &lt;i&gt;in flagrante delicto&lt;/i&gt;.  A jealous lover perhaps?  Eh, probably waaaaay to much speculation there I guess but what he was doing at Enslin's cabin in the first place is a question.

ILC:  Agreed, however an unofficial tolerance for homosexuals doesn't mean that when it is officially known the same 'rules' apply.  I doubt that Enslin would have been able to resign under those circumstances.  It is interesting though that Burr &#38; Washington showed some leniency given the punishments for sodomy at that time.  That in itself may argue against Monhart being a young teenager as I surmise Burr &#38; Washington might have come down harder if her were.  Then again, perhaps one of the reasons we don't hear about what happened to Monhart is that because of his possible young age he could be said to have been taken advantage of by an older man.  Difficult to say and the dearth of further information is frustrating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pepe:  Good point.  Since we mostly have just speculation here, I am curious what a Navy Ensign was doing at Valley Forge and that he was the one who discovered Enslin and Monhart <i>in flagrante delicto</i>.  A jealous lover perhaps?  Eh, probably waaaaay to much speculation there I guess but what he was doing at Enslin&#8217;s cabin in the first place is a question.</p>
<p>ILC:  Agreed, however an unofficial tolerance for homosexuals doesn&#8217;t mean that when it is officially known the same &#8216;rules&#8217; apply.  I doubt that Enslin would have been able to resign under those circumstances.  It is interesting though that Burr &amp; Washington showed some leniency given the punishments for sodomy at that time.  That in itself may argue against Monhart being a young teenager as I surmise Burr &amp; Washington might have come down harder if her were.  Then again, perhaps one of the reasons we don&#8217;t hear about what happened to Monhart is that because of his possible young age he could be said to have been taken advantage of by an older man.  Difficult to say and the dearth of further information is frustrating.</p>
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		<title>By: ILoveCapitalism</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2712</link>
		<dc:creator>ILoveCapitalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2712</guid>
		<description>It just seems to me that the perjury issue - and the potential age-of-consent or 'exploitation' issue, if there is any - compounds the fraternization.

I wonder what would have been different if, upon being caught, Enslin had admitted it and offered to resign for fraternizing - rather than trying to trash another man's (Maxwell's) reputation and life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It just seems to me that the perjury issue - and the potential age-of-consent or &#8216;exploitation&#8217; issue, if there is any - compounds the fraternization.</p>
<p>I wonder what would have been different if, upon being caught, Enslin had admitted it and offered to resign for fraternizing - rather than trying to trash another man&#8217;s (Maxwell&#8217;s) reputation and life.</p>
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		<title>By: Pepe</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2708</link>
		<dc:creator>Pepe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2708</guid>
		<description>Good point about the age of PVT Monhart. A lot of our opponents like to point out that homosexuality has "traditionally" been looked down on in the military. But they didn't think twice about sending young teenagers into battle - and not just as drummer boys. Wonder what they would have to say if we proposed going back to that "tradition"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point about the age of PVT Monhart. A lot of our opponents like to point out that homosexuality has &#8220;traditionally&#8221; been looked down on in the military. But they didn&#8217;t think twice about sending young teenagers into battle - and not just as drummer boys. Wonder what they would have to say if we proposed going back to that &#8220;tradition&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2707</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2707</guid>
		<description>Perhaps, difficult to say though since there isn't more on the matter.  You raise an interesting point though, how old was Pvt. Monhart?  We don't know but it wouldn't be unsual in those days if he were a teenager below the age of 18.  That too could have led to Enslin being drummed out.  All in all though, based just on the known facts, if this happened today I'd agree with his dismissal on the fraternization charge.  Of course times are different today than back then so perhaps that's easy for me to say, but I can say that if an officer today is caught &lt;i&gt;in delicto flagrante&lt;/i&gt; with a enslited soldier like Enslin was, he should be punished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps, difficult to say though since there isn&#8217;t more on the matter.  You raise an interesting point though, how old was Pvt. Monhart?  We don&#8217;t know but it wouldn&#8217;t be unsual in those days if he were a teenager below the age of 18.  That too could have led to Enslin being drummed out.  All in all though, based just on the known facts, if this happened today I&#8217;d agree with his dismissal on the fraternization charge.  Of course times are different today than back then so perhaps that&#8217;s easy for me to say, but I can say that if an officer today is caught <i>in delicto flagrante</i> with a enslited soldier like Enslin was, he should be punished.</p>
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		<title>By: ILoveCapitalism</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2705</link>
		<dc:creator>ILoveCapitalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2705</guid>
		<description>I should explain what I mean: I suspect perjury and fraternization were what really made Enslin's behavior "infamous" or imperative to deal with.  By many accounts, the 18th century was tolerant of discreet homosexuality.

von Steuben is an interesting example.  Per &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm_von_Steuben" rel="nofollow"&gt;Wiki&lt;/a&gt;, he was drummed out of Germany allegedly because he did it with underage boys.  That would be not only fraternization, but pedophilia.  (Or ephebophilia, as they were probably teenagers.)  It was never proven... but... isn't it odd that von Steuben came to the U.S., instead of defending his honor in (say) a duel?  Now, once von Steuben is in the U.S., there are no reports of him doing it with underage boys.  Perhaps he "learned his lesson".  Wiki talks about him having "intense emotional relationships" with two of his aides de camp.  Aides de camp are officers and grownups, so, von Steuben then becomes an example of the 18th century tolerating gays who kept it semi-discreet, raised no question of perjury or fraternization or pedophilia, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should explain what I mean: I suspect perjury and fraternization were what really made Enslin&#8217;s behavior &#8220;infamous&#8221; or imperative to deal with.  By many accounts, the 18th century was tolerant of discreet homosexuality.</p>
<p>von Steuben is an interesting example.  Per <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Wilhelm_von_Steuben" rel="nofollow">Wiki</a>, he was drummed out of Germany allegedly because he did it with underage boys.  That would be not only fraternization, but pedophilia.  (Or ephebophilia, as they were probably teenagers.)  It was never proven&#8230; but&#8230; isn&#8217;t it odd that von Steuben came to the U.S., instead of defending his honor in (say) a duel?  Now, once von Steuben is in the U.S., there are no reports of him doing it with underage boys.  Perhaps he &#8220;learned his lesson&#8221;.  Wiki talks about him having &#8220;intense emotional relationships&#8221; with two of his aides de camp.  Aides de camp are officers and grownups, so, von Steuben then becomes an example of the 18th century tolerating gays who kept it semi-discreet, raised no question of perjury or fraternization or pedophilia, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: ILoveCapitalism</title>
		<link>http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/01/21/first-us-soldier-discharged-for-homosexuality/#comment-2706</link>
		<dc:creator>ILoveCapitalism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gaypatriot.net/?p=95#comment-2706</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...some allowances...need to be made for Enslin’s perjury and... fraternization...&lt;/blockquote&gt;Indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;some allowances&#8230;need to be made for Enslin’s perjury and&#8230; fraternization&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed.</p>
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