I dispute with ILC the notion that Eurotopia’s decline is strictly socialistic.

Me too! I had said, "*For example*, their socialism…"

Note, however, that socialism has giant moral and spiritual dimensions. It is not strictly economic. Show me a socialist country and I’ll show you a country where people have little responsibility, power or freedom in any matters; where "all are slaves to all", or to the elite bureaucracy. That gives people deep inner despair.

Now, as for what else is causing Europe to disappear? Another factor I’d cite is their self-hatred, i.e., their post-colonial commitment to Left multi-culturalism. It leaves them morally and ideologically defenseless against the Islamists.

Finally, even if Europe’s decline is partly a result of pure hedonism (apart from socialism or self-hate / multi-culturalism), that has little bearing on the question of whether prostitution is best "kept in a box" through criminalization or de-criminalization. Please see TGC at #32; criminalization has apparently kept prostitutes *out* of the box, i.e., on ordinary streetcorners, in his community.

In short, V, you make excellent points about sex, culture and European decline – points I agree with – just not points that address my arguments for why criminalization is a dumb way to deal with prostitution.

Legalizing a "hedonistic" activity is abolishing society’s firm divide. From there on, the society is free to "slip, slide away."

Ergo, I agree with your post. But I caution you that many gays are openly hedonistic and therefore reinforce the determination on the part of "society" that gay marriage in a non-starter. This whole discussion about prostitution has lacked the open honesty of how radical gay behavior has confused the concept. 

Here’s how Bruce Thornton, Professor of Classics at the University of California at Fresno and author of <i>Decline and Fall: Europe’s Slow-Motion Suicide</i>, puts it:

<blockquote>“Children are expensive.  They require you to sacrifice your time and your interests and your own comfort.  If your highest good is pleasure, if your highest good is a sophisticated life, then children get in the way.  Why would you spend so much money and so much energy on children if your highest good is simply material well-being?  That’s sort of the spiritual dimension of the problem."</blockquote>

Families and children require personal sacrifice and denial of self-gratification. A culture that elevates hedonism devalues those values.

If prostitution were legalized, it could and would be zoned.  So you’d see less of it on ordinary streets.  Wow – things would actually get better than they are now, in your community.  (It sounds like.)

Well I sure as hell didn’t know that there were parts of town zoned for prostitutes. In my town, however, there doesn’t seem to be any compliance with zoned areas. Prostitutes can be found in largely residential areas along main streets. They’re not just relegated to Wabash Ave. or Bartow Rd.

You can not compare Thailand with the United States. The Netherlands is the country with legalized prostitution that is most nearly like the United States. The one element in my doomsday scenario that is missing in The Netherlands is a robust system of victim’s right litigation. Legalized prostitution in Scandinavia has the same "risk" involvement for the customer. 

In the United States we are very serious about consumer protection. It is folly to assume that we would legally permit the free exchange of body fluids as commerce and not regulate it in terms of protecting the provider and the consumer.

The legalized prostitution in Nevada is monitored by the health department and the consumers have legal rights. Las Vegas has had policing problems with prostitutes who are not registered and inspected. The professional hookers have an ongoing beef with the "scab" hookers who are selling it cheaper and not obeying the rules.

My comments stand. They are exactly what our city council would wrestle with if they decided to legalize prostitution. Don’t take it from me. Head down to your local city attorney and ask him what would be involved from the perspective of your city in legalizing prostitution.

I talked with our chief of police this afternoon and he said that the hookers in our community are treated with benign neglect based on their staying out of public notice. Those are not his words, but that is a clear understanding of the discussion.

The hookers were chased out of Times Square in NYC. Like all community pests they simply moved out of the bright lights. The police generally get involved in dealing with prostitution when it becomes too obvious.

Legalizing drugs, prostitution, porn, gambling, euthanasia, etc. in a society with a vigorous system of tort litigation is more than just declaring the practice legal. 

 

Pot laws are being dismantled or go unenforced.  Needle exchange programs are another such step. And both moves are popular. Why? Well when it comes to robbers vs pot smokers , people know who the real dangers to their community are.

Still missing from all of this is what was happening around him while all of this was going on.  I mean, don’t governors have a security detail ?  Just like Clinton who had security guards joking about Lewinsky waiting for him in the Oval Office, didn’t anybody on the Governor’s staff notice anything odd about his hotel booking in DC, etc. ?

I think a potentially explosive aspect is being overlooked here, specifically that it’s being reported that Spitzer had been using this "Emperor’s Club" prostitution group for a decade. IOW, he was doing business with a criminal organization at the same time he was prosecuting their competition.

Jeffersonian, I have half-wondered for years if Spitzer was, in fact, merely acting against criminal enterprise B on behalf of criminal enterprise A. That’s what government does, when it makes law after law. It "picks and chooses" who it’s going to enforce them on.

Likewise, the sudden revelations about Spitzer could have been planted by some criminal enterprise, as a form of protection or as revenge. We’ll probably never know.

History demonstrates that societies that are unable to uphold moral standards are not strong enough to protect individual freedoms.

History demonstrates that societies which attempt to *legislate* moral standards, end up merely destroying a culture in which people would otherwise enforce such standards spontaneously on themselves and each other. It is a principle known to economists as, "Bad regulation drives out good regulation." The more rules you have – the more you criminalize things – the more people’s concern becomes "What do the rules say now? What can I get away with now?" – rather than with doing (and being) the Right Thing.

History demonstrates that societies that are unable to uphold moral standards are not strong enough to protect individual freedoms.

Then, since no society has ever been able to uphold moral standards, no society has ever been strong enough to protect individual freedoms. (Reductio ad absurdum)

Cheapening and commoditizing sex is bad for society as a whole.

Agree 100%. And you know what’s even worse for society as a whole? Criminalizing mere personal vices, thus furthering the "need" for illegal and illegitimate businesses and finally, illegitimate property protection services, also known as criminal gangs.

European civilization is dying before our very eyes.

Not because they have (wisely) ceased to criminalize prostitution, but for other causes. E.g., their socialism, which leaves people with zero personal responsibility or role in their own lives.

As deviancy is defined downward, people whose sense of gratification requires breaking taboos are pushed to more extreme forms of behavior.

No one is proposing to "define deviancy downward" – only to improve the situation for society by (a) making one less driver for the existence of criminal gangs, and (b) giving the police better things to do. Furthermore, earlier you wanted to bring in Europe as an example of what allegedly happens when you legalize prostitution. Have people in Europe been driven to, say, rape or murder, because prostitution is too safe/legal? Not at all.

In the real world, prostitution isn’t just a meaningless financial transaction, it has negative impacts.

It has undeniable negative impacts to the people doing it, BUT, limited in scope – and, limited to those people. Same with alcohol, smoking, and playing Wham! records to your friends. How can you morally and logically justify banning one, and not the other? Where would it end?

heliotrope:

Legalizing prostitution requires a bureaucracy to police it and the amateurs who will surround the industry.

Please tolerate me in correcting that for you:

*Criminalizing* prostitution requires a bureaucracy to police it and the amateurs who will surround the industry.

There.  Please count me as one of those who believes it would be better for society as a whole, if the police could concentrate more on real crimes.

As to prostitution, I agree with Jonah Goldberg:  this should be a local issue, solved at the municipal level.  As per  Nevada.