If you haven’t heard the Rev. Wright’s own words, you should.
We have always heard that Republican Presidential candidates have to be held to account for their associations with religious figures like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and James Dobson. Should not Barack Obama have to be held to the same standard in his direct relationship with an anti-American, anti-white and not-very-Christian-like minister whom he considered a mentor?
Victor Davis Hanson has these thoughts at The Corner:
One of the strangest defenses of Rev. Wright by Sen. Obama was his repeated assurance that Wright is a biblical “scholar.”
But Wright’s own sermons surely belie that characterization: he uses the “n-word,” resorts to profanity, and when screaming that Clinton was “ridin’ dirty” with Monica, he seems from the tape at least, to be shaking and trying to simulate sexual intercourse from the pulpit.
Justice Thomas seems to be referred to as “Clarence Colon” and Sec. Rice is “Condamnesia.” All this is crude and uncouth, and not even the eloquent Obama could finesse it into anything scholarly. This entire defense is simply Orwellian—especially since Obama’s past references to and praise of Wright in interviews and memoirs, as well as 20-years of church attendance and intimacy, suggest admiration and clear knowledge of the character of Wright.
If anything, Wright seems to have trumped even the hatred of Farrakhan.
The raw venom expressed by Wright, and Obama’s ambiguity about him, may well be the most bizarre development in recent American political history. It is as if he and his entire campaign staff have collectively lost their minds with these serial contortions and half-truths, and are trying to lose Pennsylvania by 30 points—when all Obama would have to do is apologize, quit the church, and begin talking about the issues (albeit holding off for a while from the old sermons about transcending race, and practicing a new candor and political honesty.)
Any middle-of-the-road Democratic voter who sampled five or six of Wright’s sermons, juxtaposed them with Obama’s references to him as not particularly controversial, an uncle, a scholar, etc., wouldn’t vote for Obama in a million years.
Obama’s reluctance to divorce himself from this hateful view of America makes we wonder if his lofty visions of “hope” and “change” are just words. Or is he simply a better-packaged version of the strain of anti-American leftist hate that is the heart and soul of the Democratic Party?
-Bruce (GayPatriot)
Bruce, something about that post was so fun to read! Schadenfreude, I guess.
Can we please underline that about a 1,000 times and mail it out to every Democrat and give them cookies or ice cream if they pass a test on it?
The most fundamental and recognizable trait of a Democrat is hypocrisy, so I don’t expect this to be receive any more attention than any other hypocrisy. Is it important? Of course. Will the MSM focus on it? No. Not when they can focus, as they do like clockwork every four years into a Republican Presidency, on the "disasterous" economy.
I think it quite possibly will be his downfall because Americans are scared when they hear someone speak the truth. I watched the clips that someone put together from Faux New and Hannity’s hate show and there was not one thing Wright said that was not absolutely true. To tell the truth about this country is not to hate it, it is to love it and know that it is worth saving. Obama should be held responsible for his association with Wright, he should be responsible enough to stand by his pastor rather than play politics. You say Wright speaks venom, perhaps you haven’t set foot in a fundamentalist "christian" church lately
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Nice to see the Left’s moonbats back and raving. 🙂
Dave (#3) –
I actually HAVE. Have you? Or do you just read the Gospel of Kos?
 "Should not Barack Obama have to be held to the same standard…?"
As this grinds-forward I’ve come to the sad conclusion that Obama has to held to a HIGHER standard, since this is happening at his own church. The Dobsons and Falwells are mere out-of-state co-religionists for most GOP fundementalists; but the Rev. Wright was his pastor at the very congregataion that Obama chooses to worship-at…and has chosen to worship at for the last 20-years. That’s over a thousand-Sundays at which Obama and his wife could have voted-with-their-feet and left….but CHOSE to remain seated. (Or, possibly standing in ovation with the rest of the congregation? "Praise God…..Hallelueh!")
And unfortunately it ties into the "unfortunate" remark of Mrs. Obama on her first-time pride in America, and other articles I’ve seen that cast her in a very negative-light for her sympathies with militant Black Nationalist separatism. And into the flap over Obama’s not wearing the US Flag pin. (Which in another context I would have dismissed a foolish.)
If a Presidentail election is about character, this is a HUGE setback for Sen. Obama. It would appear that he has not walked-the-talk….and repudiating Rev. Wright AFTER getting caught-out is not character. Frankly, I’m genuinely dissappointed….I thought the man had a chance to be The Man.
How can you hold Obama to this standard? You have never held any Republican to this standard?Â
I’m not defending the Rev’s statement. I don’t like it either. But plenty of things just as bad have been said people folks other politicians on both sides of the aisle court to get votes and who they call for advice.
So until you hold Republicans to this standard you can just keep your hypocritical yap shut.
We are going to watch the amazing collapse of the Obama campaign for President. There is still a majority of Americans who will not abide their country and it’s institutions being dragged thru the mud like this preacher does. Now either Barack knew about his pastors rantings, and true beliefs, or he didn’t know and he should have. If he belonged to this church and attended regularly, and didn’t know about the rantings, some may think his ignorance is worse. How can you put the countries trust in such a candidate? The 3am ad and this preacher scandal has blown away the Obama campaign with a couple simple puffs. Watch Hillary win Pennsylvania by close to 20 points. Those leftists who po po this scandal are really detached from Americas heartland. If his campaign crumbles, the corrupt super delegates can ride in and save the Democrats from Obama. The trouble then becomes the Sharpton Jackson Democrat wing of the party. Having felt left out and neglected by the Democrats, watch Rev’s AL and JESSIE exact their revenge. "NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE  will ring out through the streets of Denver. Can I get and AMEN? hehe
#7 I thought Barack was different? He was the non polititian. The change, he was going to be different, "appeal to our better angels"? Obama was the change agent, the calls for HOPE. Is he like Republicans or is he different? With his total lack of experience his claim to fame is his NOT being like other pols. If he loses that, why should he get anyones votes? If the defense of his family not walking during one of these hate filled sermons is….no Republican has denounced Rev Robertson, Barack is equally tarnished. So his compelling reason for election has escaped me.
That’s the beauty of it. Say he is collapsing. Say Hillary wins PA by 20 points, and the majority of other remaining contests. Well, Obama will still be THE Democratic choice. He will STILL be ahead in the people’s vote count – and in pledged delegates. Hillary will have to argue, "The people have changed their minds." But how can she argue that? Â Too self-interested, coming from her. The people’s votes were cast. They can’t have do-overs in every state. And the loud activists, who mostly support Obama, certainly won’t agree they’ve changed their minds. Long story short: Celebrity Death Match!
OT-but-related… h/t Ace and LGF: The America-hating moonbats at Daily Kos are arguing that America needs to be invaded and occupied, and Americans slaughtered.
But remember, folks: We can’t question their patriotism. Advocating the destruction of your nation, and the suffering and slaughter of your neighbors, is (by them) the highest form of patriotism.
Gaypatriot,
I don’t read Kos any more than to take a passing glance at the headlines. My opinion of fundamentalist/conservative Christians is based completely on 10 years of being part of their churches and a daily reading of the various blogs and webites. The attitude I see there towards anyone outside of their narrow definition of acceptable, is what will be the downfall of this country, at least as a free country dedicated to justice. This is hatred far worse than anything Wright has said.     As a gay man, no matter how conservative you are, you are on the top of the search and destroy list if they ever gain enough power.  If you took the time to see the truth behind Wright’s words and not the presentation you might think differently.Â
Obama chose the church. In twenty years, he must have picked up on the nature of the place. As you watch Wright, you see people jumping about and yelling agreement. It would follow that Wright and his flock are sympatico. IF Obama was made uncomfortable with the tone of this ministry, why did he make the choice to sit still and silent? No matter what may have advised his choices, he has tarred himself as surely as if he had tied himself to Malcom X or attended Bob Jones University or been an accountant for a major whore house.
If Wright is typical of the average black minister (he is not), then the racial divide in the US is being stoked by cynical racists on Sunday and Obama has no better chance at the audacity of hope than your average Klansman.
Dave (#14) –
May I recommend you look into the impact of Sharia law on gay men and women?
I think it may put your Hate America First attitude in some more perspective.
ILoveCapitalism, do you agree with everything that is written by everyone at Free Republic or any other conservative website? Why is there this ridiculous idea that all liberals think the same way, that’s not rational.
GayPatriot, I am well aware of the effects of many other belief systems on gay men and lesbians. And I don’t want to see it here with Christ as the excuse. Don’t say it couldn’t happen, history shows otherwise. And I don’t hate America, I am just willing to look at what we have done and are likely to do again. We can be the country that the founding fathers envisioned but it requires honesty.
#15 Dave – Because of you, buddy. Because of your moonbat comments.
Dave… you have me very confused now.  First you said this:
"I think it quite possibly will be his downfall because Americans are scared when they hear someone speak the truth. I watched the clips that someone put together from Faux New and Hannity’s hate show and there was not one thing Wright said that was not absolutely true."
But now you say this: "And I don’t hate America, I am just willing to look at what we have done and are likely to do again."
How do you reconcile agreeing with Rev. Wright who "damns America" and then in the same breath claim not to hate America?
PS — It’d also be great if Barack answered tough questions like this.
PPS — Dave, do you also think the government infected blacks with the AIDS virus like Rev. Wright claims?
Or that the US in any way deserved 9-11?Â
Dave, I suspect you of dissembling. You say: "My opinion of fundamentalist/conservative Christians is based completely on 10 years of being part of their churches…"
If you spent 10 adult years in a fundamentalist church, you had to have been a believer or doing research. You would never have been able to accumulate ten years of experience as a cynic or a skeptic.
Fundamentalists have distilled the mystery of religion to its bare bones. If you happen into a sect that is tossing rattlesnakes around and you don’t buy it, there are many more churches just down the road.
Gays typically do not like fundamentalists (Christian) because they believe homosexuality is an aberration and that gays should abstain from gay sex and they pray for gay deliverance. But the typical fundamentalist (Christian) loves the sinner and hates the sin. Islamic fundamentalists have an easier and more decisive solution to the riddle of homosexuality.
Perhaps you live in an area where fundamentalist Christians are murdering gays in their beds and the MSM is covering it up. Perhaps you live in an area where there is no legal presence to protect the due process of people who happen to be gay.
Until gays get over their hate of fundamentalist Christians and the gay drama queen palpitations over perceived schemes and battle plans by Christian fundamentalists, gays will remain enslaved by their own small mindedness.
Jerry Falwell was never a threat to gays in any way other than calling gays out on the gay political agenda. So, gays played the "gay card" and called him a homophobe and hater.
Fundamentalist Christians do not control the national agenda. To single them out as the enemy, is to completely ignore the issue.
The gay political agenda is not a battle with fundamentalists Christians. The US is based on the Judeo-Christian ethic and British Common Law. The gay political agenda is an issue with society as a whole and its job is to convince the 90% majority that some institutions of society need to be rethought to include citizens whose life practices differ from the standard.
Gays should expect Christian fundamentalists to hold their stand. (Duh!) But hating people who are sworn to love you is a rather goofy game plan.
I knew Jerry Falwell very well. He was sincere in his beliefs and an extremely honest man. He and I had our major religious differences, but we enjoyed one another in an adult and, may I say it, loving way. Dr. Falwell had deeply help religiously based beliefs on Jews, Muslims and atheists. But he was always willing to have a discussion and/or debate with anyone who challenged his belief system. That is how I came to know him, to admire him and to fondly remember him. I hate to tell you, Dave, but he would have loved to talk with you and he would have prayed for you, as well.
Christian fundamentalists are a side-show to the political gay agenda. Just what belief system do gays propose to deploy to overcome a 2000 year old tradition? Random snarky attacks?
GayPatriot,
How is Wright damning America any worse the the anti-abortion folks claiming that God judges and/or condemns the US for legal abortion? Is it because he used the word damn rather than condemn? Explain the difference.Â
I should not have said everything Wright has said is true. Everything I heard in the various clips floating around Youtube was true. I certainly don’t agree that the gov’t infected anyone with AIDS but they did with syphillis correct? Has the gov’t changed in it’s secrecy and it’s "the ends justify the means" attitude.
And yes, Obama should be answering these questions not giving the ridiculous excuse he didn’t know. He blew it right there. I think even some of his hardcorp groupies will have second thoughts. The problem is many of us get nauseous at the thought of voting for Clinton. I registered Dem this year just to vote against her in the primary and I haven’t joined a party in probably 25 years.
The Democrats were very naive in nominating someone to the highest office in the land who was almost a complete and total blank canvas. He did well when each American could imprint on Barack what they "thought and imagined" he stood for. Now about 75% through a  PRIMARY campaign we are learning about his true beliefs and foundations. It has always been my belief that if the country puts it faith in a liberal to run the country they were playing with fire. Now we see a Democrat party who didn’t plumb the depths of their own candidate and now it all will fall apart like a house of cards. POOF. One gentle breeze. I agree with the above that the contest is over, Barack has won. Wonder how the party feels about front loading all the primaries? Americans have 7 months to find out about the real Barack Obama. I see he came out yesterday and was more forthcoming about his friendship and attachment to the corrupt Tony the bull Rezko. If the Obamas have any more skeletons in their closets are they better off shining lite on them now or waiting? If anyone has a cell phone vid of Michele or Barack standing and shaking or hopping during one of his racist preachers rants please come forward so America can see.
In other words, you want to draw a moral equivalence between the most extreme anti-Americans on the religious Right, and the most extreme anti-American on the religious Left. But Bruce already did that. That was Bruce’s point. Bruce said:
So now you agree with Bruce, all the sudden, or seek to make Bruce’s own point.
Bruce doesn’t need to (see above). However, I shall. Saying that you FEAR that God has damned America, or that you fear God MIGHT someday damn America if it doesn’t improve its ways, is not ASKING God to damn America… is not CALLING UPON God to damn America. Only the nuttiest, most hateful extremists like Fred Phelps would ever do that. Oh yeah – and the Rev. Wright. And, oh yeah twice: Phelps and Wright are both Democrats. Coincidence?
heliotrope,
I am a believer, that is why it pains me so to see what is happening. I lived and worked with people who truly loved God and tried daily to live as Jesus taught. They also were not as far right as those I call fundamentalist. But the undercurrent of animosity towards those they saw as "sinners" was always there. Few people are truly capable of hating the sin and still loving the sinner. And many of the words and actions that flow from Christians proves it. The hatred of some is almost tangible and if you can’t see that I’m not sure where you are looking. Of course there are millions of Christians who are not obsessed with homosexuality and happily coexist with us, even if they don’t approve. It is the minority, but a dangerous one, who are consumed by their crusade. And they may not control the national agenda but currently have a strong influence on it. Perhaps that will change with the next administration. All the obscene anti-SSM amendments are there because the extreme right of Christianty pushed and pushed until they got them on the ballots. Yes, a majority of the citizens have voted for them and some surely support them whole heartedly, but many simply did not bother to look at the implications of what they were doing.
You certainly should remember your friend fondly but LGBT dislike of him came from much more than him "calling out their political agenda". Was he not one of the "blame the gays" after 9/11? I believe that he did change his attitudes in recent years.
I don’t think you can make a blanket "gays typically" about anything because there is no typical gay person. It’s somewhat humorous for you to say "drama queen palpitations over perceived schemes and battle plans by Christian fundamentalists". Have you never heard th0se, and I don’t mean fringe lunatics, claiming that the "homosexual agenda" is based on an organized game plan? Have you not read the countless myths about our behaviour and health issues?
Society as a whole is far more open towards us than it has been and that is what terrifies those against us. And it is the result of that fear that I worry about. Fear of (fill in the blank) has been the source of much destruction in the history of mankind. And recent events around the world show that things haven’t changed much. Small mindedness is a characteristic of far more than gay folks.
Personally I think it is fine that fundmendalists stand up for what they believe. Any of us as citizens of this country should do so. What I object to is their attempts to enshrine their anti-gay attitudes into law, and the way they are trying to do it through demonizing us.
I am not blind to the flaws in the major LGBT political organization or their tactics and I make no claims of perfection for the various gay communities.
One part of the issue isn’t that the Rev. Wright is any more extreme than te Revs. Phelps, Falwell or Dobson on any-given-Sunday; it’s that Sen. Obama has remained a faithful and faithfilled parishoner in his congregation…each week voting with his feet to support the pastor and congregation. Ever week he attended he made a choice, he can’t now say he didn’t know….
This in much more personal and damning than mere embaressing support from out-of-state co-religionists; this is Obama’s private, family congregation…his pulpit…his pastor…and his collection-plate.
And if he claims he was too dim-witted or dense to have observed what was going-on around him then he’s doubly-damned as an unacceptable possible-President of the United States!
Barack Obama knew there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq when all the intellegence communities in the western world thought otherwise. But Mr. Obama didn’t know his preacher, the man who married him and his wife and baptised his children, he didn’t know that man was a raving racist and America hater. This puzzles me. That Democrats don’t understand how the majority of Americans will view and understand this, is why I can’t vote for them to hold responsible positions of power in our free country.
Heliotrope..your comments in#20 are excellent. I have sat in churches that I suppose some would call "fundamentalist." Baptist, evangelical free, independent and in the last 30 years I have never heard one sermon where homosexuals or gays were railed upon the way Dave seems to think they are every Sunday. If that were the case I would not be going to church this Sunday to celebrate Easter…I’d just stay home, color eggs, and eat ham. I have heard plenty of sermons about Christ’s love and sacrifice on the cross for all the sins of the world. Mine included. I have heard sermons against selling out my spiritual life to addictions, materialism, selfishness, and hatred of others. But never one of the nature of Wright’s sermons and screeds.  I am not saying that it hasn’t happen, just not in any church I’d attend. Wright’s sermons are a version of liberation theology that is disturbing in it’s Marxism.  We should inform ourselves on what Obama really belives.
ILoveCapitalism #17 and #19
Surely you cannot claim that ALL liberals would say the same thing I did, or that KOS did (and those are far different things). Again, do all conservatives believe the same, seems like it sometimes, a lot of things they say are so much the same they could be scripted. But I know they don’t and they aren’t. Perhaps you should learn to distinguish also.
Did we deserve 9/11, absolutely not. The innocent citizens of any country do not deserve to be killed because of the agenda of some lunatics – gov’t or religious. That said, I do believe we have fueled the fire of hatred in the extremists of Islam and have inflicted much damage on other countries which can drive rational people over the edge into fanaticism. In the case of radical Islam the hatred was already there, we did not cause it and likely cannot to anything to lessen it. In all wars, innocent people suffer the most and I truly can’t find a way to justify that.  That is not anti-American, simply anti-death and destruction of human beings. I’m not making a value judgement on all of our past wars and military actions, that is for the students of history to do.
#23 – if it was the far extreme on the right I wouldn’t be concerned. To me your distinction between fear/might and Wright’s statements is not valid, but I’m not going to tell you you can’t think that way. The fact that Phelps and Wright are both Democrats is meaningless, both parties has it’s share of members they are embarrased about (or should be)
Let it all blow up, Hillary benefits from all of this. She just needs to focus on doing town houses in Penn, NC, WV, IN, and talking about policies. Obama has to give a speech about Race tomorrow and continue to be knocked off track, Ferraro will be forgotten with all of this Wright stuff.
If this lingers enough and he loses big in Penn, we could really see a shifting in the race which already started back in March. Fight on Hillary, thats all you can do.
Gene (#26) — Brilliant, simply brilliant.
********
Jan. 20, 2009: President John McCain will be inaugurated. Rev. Wright will help the Democratic Party explode in 2008, just like they did in 1968.Â
In fact, as I recall, Falwell recanted quickly – within days.
And again, his original statement was more along the lines of "I believe God has damned America here" – NOT "I call upon God to damn America". The "Reverend" Wright unequivocally called upon – that is, *asked* – God to damn America. That’s how evil, how utterly hate-filled, he is.
Why, thank you. How generous of you. Now, Dave, the Rev. Wright said America did deserve 9/11, or bring it on itself. Why hasn’t Obama explicitly repudiated that? Why has Obama, in fact, based entire books (The Audacity of Hope) on the Rev. Wright’s teachings? Or attended his church for 20 years, as Ted and Gene point out?
Oh, my mistake, Dave. You believe America brought 9-11 upon itself, after all. You only want to pretend to us (for rhetorical purposes?) that you don’t.
What disgusts me more than the crap spewing from Pastor Wright’s mouth is Senator Obama’s claim that, despite being close to Wright for nearly 20 years, he wasn’t aware that Wright had said these things until he saw the sermon excerpts on television last week.
I’ve yet to run into anyone who believes Obama and if I do I have some swampland in Florida (I really do have some swampland) I’ll sell them cheap.
I keep wondering if Michelle Obama is the main reason the family is still affiliated with Trinity Church of Christ. She may have agreed with Wright — after all, the woman is in her mid-40s and wasn’t finally proud of America until just a couple of weeks ago.
Just to be clear, Dave – These two statements of yours are in direct, total conflict:
So, let me ask you (rather than assuming): Which one do you want to stick to? Nobody gets to double-talk on GayPatriot, in my experience.
ILoveCapitalism, you chopped my sentence in a vain attempt to make it say what you want it to. I did not say or even imply that we brought it on ourselves. And my two statements do not contradict each other. If you throw another log on a fire, does that mean you started the fire? No, it means you helped it get larger and hotter. Does that mean you deserve to get burned by it or if the fire flares and you get burned you brought in on yourself? Certainly not.
I’ve already stated my agreement to the criticism of Obama for his response to this. And I have no need to pretend to agree with you on anything. What would be the point? I don’t say things with a hidden or double meaning so there’s no reason to look for it.
BTW, have you ever preached in front of a congregation?    It is quite easy to get caught up in the emotions that are coming from the people listening. I’ve seen preachers say things that I know they didn’t mean to, or at least didn’t mean to say it the way they did. It’s also easy, especially with a very responsive group of people, to try to feed the emotions or manipulate it. Wright, with 20 years of preaching, is likely far more guilty of the second rather than the first. I don’t say this in his defense, it’s just an observation. But whatever, as others have said the issue is (or should be) Obama’s handling of Wright’s words being made public.
Dave, I chopped it only to distill it to its essence, making my post shorter. But if you want to play your games, fine – Here is the longer quotation:
It’s still saying the same thing: That, in no small or inconsiderable part, *we* drove the Islamists to it. Now cut the crap. If, as you claim in your other statements, you really don’t think we brought 9-11 on ourselves: kindly stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Precisely. In truth, your working theory is that yes, we (America) did contribute to 9-11. That we did bring it on ourselves in no small part – "making it larger and hotter". Hey, let’s blame America!
Then Dave – Why have you been pretending to?
Ah. So now Wright isn’t responsible for his own words; rather, the hateful, vicious, EVIL, Fred Phelps-level things said by Wright are his audience’s fault. And who’s been in that audience, the majority of Sundays for 20 years? That audience that allegedly causes Wright’s emotions and words? Hint: Barack and Michelle Obama.
For the record. Here is Falwell’s key comment:
Deluded and wrong? Yes, on several levels. Nonetheless, the comments of a man who *regrets* 9-11 – a man who *does not want* bad things for America – a man who believes we may have forfeited God’s special protection and desperately need it back. Falwell apologized the next day to gays specifically, saying:
Now here is the transcript of Wright:
The comments of a man wanting bad things for America. The comments of a man CALLING FOR or REQUESTING disaster from God. "God Bless America" is an invocation, the short form of "I sure hope God blesses America!" Likewise, in Wright’s context, "God damn America" is an invocation, the equivalent short form of "I sure hope God damns America!" If anyone knows of an apology from Wright, I’ve missed it and please let us know here.
Blowing oneself up *is* rational in Islam. It’s nonsense to think that some non-Islamic force can cause someone to "lose their mind" in the Western sense and make them into suicidal religious extremists.
And anyway.. what did the US do to "fuel the fire". If my chronology is correct we’ve done the following- 1920s – onward – Main benefactor and protector of the Muslim Saudi Arabian Kingdom
-Â 1950s – Protected Muslim Egypt from UK/France/Israel invasion
– 1979 – Began arming Egypt with weapons as reward for phoney peace with Israel
– 1980s – Tried to calm down the all-against-all violence in Lebanon.
– 1980s – Tried to liberate Muslim Afghanistan from Soviet occupation
– 1991 – Liberated Muslim Kuwait from Iraq
– 1990s – Supported the Muslim PLO and Muslim Palestinian Authority and pumped millions/billions of dollars to it
– 1991/2 – Established No-Fly-Zones in Iraq to protect Muslim Kurds/Shiites from Saddam
– 1992 – Led military effort to feed starving Muslims in chaotic Somalia
– Late 1990s – Protected Muslims in Bosnia
– 1999 – Bombed Serbia to protect Muslims in Serbian province of Kosovo
– 2002 – Pushed hated Taliban from power in Afghanistan
– 2003 – Pushed hated Baathist regime from power in Iraq
– 2004 – Provided relief to Indonesia and other Muslim states after disasterous Tsunami
– 2007 – Established renewed counter-insurgancy plan to protect Shiite and Sunni muslims from harm in Iraq
– 2007 (and before) – Betrayed Israel in order to assist Muslim Palestinian Authority in elusive "Peace Process"
The Muslims have been pushed to extremism because of us? I dare ask.. who other than us have helped them to such an extent of treasure and blood?
What’s worse, people in this country like Dave, dont even acknoweldge what we have done. It’s contemptious how regressives like him have nothing but condemnation for the US.Â
To catch up:
Should not Barack Obama have to be held to the same standard
Nope.
He’s a black liberal. To hold him to any standard is considered "racist". That, of course, is beside the point that you can’t hold liberals to ANY standard because they don’t stand for anything.
#16
We can be the country that the founding fathers envisioned but it requires honesty.
And we sure as HELL aren’t going to get honesty from liberals. Therefore it doesn’t require the liberal left, who obviously DETEST what the founding fathers envisioned. If I’m lying, why the hell are they constantly undermining that vision?
#24
Yes, a majority of the citizens have voted for them and some surely support them whole heartedly, but many simply did not bother to look at the implications of what they were doing.
So if the people don’t agree with you, it’s because they’re too damn stupid to know any better? Better yet, the liberals who claim we should abandon Iraq and run like hell haven’t bothered to look at the implications?
#28
Surely you cannot claim that ALL liberals would say the same thing I did, or that KOS did (and those are far different things).
There’s ZERO evidence to suggest otherwise. Liberals rely on the KOShole or DU bumper sticker slogans so that they don’t actually have to deal with reality. I don’t recall ever meeting a liberal that didn’t have an irrational hatred for Bush that wasn’t based on the liberal kook fringe lying points. That goes for the much vaunted assholes like Matthews, Olbersmear, Anderson Vanderbilt etc.
Again, do all conservatives believe the same, seems like it sometimes, a lot of things they say are so much the same they could be scripted.
If one looks beyond the lying points, they know it can’t be true, but would probably lie about it anyway. Again, I’ve yet to see any evidence of liberals "thinking" beyond the lying points. I can’t think of a single example of liberals telling the truth in the past (at least) 8 years.
#34
BTW, have you ever preached in front of a congregation?   It is quite easy to get caught up in the emotions that are coming from the people listening.
That’s what we call making excuses. Generally ministers are adult enough to control themselves and stick to the point rather than subverting their message to political folly.
Dave really let the snakes out when he made his reference to preachers feeding off the reactions of the congregation. That is a convoluted description of the work of the demagogue. If you watch the congregation and listen to them on the Wright tapes, you can not escape the realization that Wright is a master at whipping up a frenzy, not the other way around. He is the powerful bigot whose words lift his listeners to release their inner hates, grievances, and bitterness. That is the power of the demagogue. It is the "method" employed by Wahabbism, Saul Alinsky, the Nazis, Eva Person and Castro. Organize around an inner rage, and you can move people to do your bidding.
I do not see that Wright was doing anything more than growing his congregation and his ego. But it certainly makes one wonder why the Obamas would be a long time part of the adoring congregants. Like Dave’s time among the hateful fundamentalists, perhaps Obama was studying the congregation and learning ways to bring the races together. Or not.Â
I don’t know how I ever lived 50 years without "conservatives" to tell me what my words really mean and what I believe and how I feel. ILoveCapitalism, ThatGayConservative and Vince P, I owe you a debt of gratitude for helping to guide me in the right (no pun intended) direction.  barf….
If you want to look for double meanings, evidence to prove your disgust for liberals and show that you must defend the nation and the world, you certainly will be able to find it. If you read my words as written, or my explanation of statements you have misinterpreted then you might actually realize that your beliefs about me is simply wrong. I’m not holding my breath for that to happen. And sadly, I guess I have no choice but to hold on to my opinions about people who claim to be conservative since it’s clear that some on here aren’t willing to see that any liberal can be different than what you think.  Since you insist that I (as an example of all liberals) am influenced by sources that I don’t even read or TV hosts that I never listen to then I guess it’s save to assume that all of you are influenced the loudest and most obnoxious (sp?) voices from the right.  The world is not black or white, either/or, yes or no. If you (and many of the more extreme liberals) choose not to see that, then we are in for another period of massive upheaval in this country. That’s too bad because it’s totally unavoidable.
So sorry for adding fuel to the fire, hence causing you to hate me and all liberals and bringing upon myself the worst of all possible reaction. 🙂
Dave closes with this: "So sorry for adding fuel to the fire, hence causing you to hate me and all liberals and bringing upon myself the worst of all possible reaction."
Dave, hate is a deep seated, vile, self-consuming emotion. In my life, I have occasionally met or worked with amoral people, violent people, obsessed people, bigots, and loathers. But the haters have been a rarity.Â
Dave, you can not find evidence of hate or loathing expressed toward you in any words expressed in the comments above. I notice, however, that you drop the "hate" bomb with a rather cavalier abandon.Â
For instance, in #24 your speak directly to me saying: " The hatred of some is almost tangible and if you can’t see that I’m not sure where you are looking." I suppose I could find a way to feel attacked by that statement, but it is too amorphous in its construction to grab a foothold of meaning. But you state that you have been in the company of "haters." Who, what, where, why, when?Â
I am certain that I could find a venue where I would be shouted down, verbally abused and even be the recipient of tossed cups and pies. But I seriously doubt that group would be invested in "hate." I would consider them annoying jerks who had not yet matured enough to handle differing points of view.
If you have found "hate" here, you should spend some time with a neutral party who is expert in helping people handle their inner fears. I am not gay, so I do not encounter the problems that may befall those who are gay. However, I have many close friends and regular associates who are gay and your experience with "haters" is not a part of my knowledge and experience. Too often, people who have a high level of victim status are too focused on their own views of the world to find a way to understand the world as it really works.Â
I once had a gay student who was certain he was being persecuted. He believed his mediocre work was graded down because of his homosexual status. Other students tired of his self pity and he saw them as being bigoted. It is not an unusual scenario with those who take on the victim mantle. There are real bigots to avoid, but there are also the shadows of our own minds. I say again, there are no "haters" in the comments above.
heliotrope – As you’d know, if you call bullsh*t on a bullsh*t artist or simply refuse to put up with their nonsense – Then you are getting in their way – and that *feels to them* like hate.
Saying "God damn them", as Wright did of America, would be real hate. But, as you point out, no one has done that.
Dave, I’ll think of you this morning during my violin practice.
Heliotrope, I appreciate your well written remarks whether I agree with them or not. They are far superior to the ludicrous "all liberals" are this and "all demcrats" are that. Those remarks are simply hot air from people who apparently have nothing to offer to a discussion.
My last statement was a joke that apparently fell quite flat.  But what to you call it when someone is constantly screeching about the evils of others with obviously no intention of ever trying to get to know our understand their viewpoint. I don’t say anyone one on here hates me personally but the insane generalizations about liberals come from a place of ignorance and fear. So don’t call it hate that’s fine with me but it is still an totally negative and irrational  attitude aimed at folks who by and large are not what they are being accused of and don’t belief what is claimed about them. Anti-American, detesters of the founding fathers, condemning of the US are all false labels that have been thrown out on here in the last 40 posts. A total and complete twisting of the words written by me and spoken by other liberals to make them say the most negative things and I’m giving some of the posters on here the benefit of the doubt, because if they aren’t twisting the words then it simply means they have a total lack of ability to read and understand the English language. In #24 when I refer to tangible hate I did not mean anyone on here I apologize for not clarifying that. And I agree that hate is self-consuming, if I need proof I only have to look at some of the most anti-gay voices, or the most anti-liberal voices or the most anti-conservative voices, they get lost in their own bile and can’t see anything beyond it.
"Like Dave’s time among the hateful fundamentalists, perhaps Obama was studying the congregation and learning ways to bring the races together. Or not. "
Let me defend the people I was with for those years – none of them (or almost none of them) were hateful people. They are people unwilling to look beyond their beliefs and their "mission" to see the human being that they are dealing with. Many of them were young, home-schooled, born in a pew Christians who had ideas (incorrect in my opinion) drilled into their heads from shortly after they were born and were unable to challenge those ideas. Now 1) I am not against the concept of home-schooling 2) I am not agains people who have grown up in a conservative Christian environment. Just wanted to clarify that before the accusations flew. I stayed not to study them but because those were some of the best years of my life and even after I knew that I could no longer compromise my values and overlook the things that were so obviously wrong I put off leaving as long as possible. And it wasn’t just a "gay thing", others came to the same conclusions and are far more bitter than I am. I certainly can’t speak about Obama’s reasons
Again, Heliotrope thank you for your rational responses.
ILC
"if you call bullsh*t on a bullsh*t artist" then you better make sure that it’s really bullsh*t and not simply a reflection of your own nonsense that you so desperately need to see in others so you can justify it in yourself.
Well, the topic here is Wright and Obama so I feel no need to defend myself, or them actually. Plus from the reports I’ve heard from people I know and the parts of Obama’s speech today I have read (in conservative news sources, no KOS involved) he blew the whole ridiculous attack on him out of the water and neither Hillary or McCain can benefit from it anymore. Just my liberal opinion of course.
ILC, I hope your violin practice went well, there’s not many sounds worse that a poorly played violin. Have a great evening.
Things Dave says he’s against:
– insane generalizations
Yet says:
"because Americans are scared when they hear someone speak the truth"
"But the undercurrent of animosity towards those they saw as "sinners" was always there. Few people are truly capable of hating the sin and still loving the sinner. And many of the words and actions that flow from Christians proves it. The hatred of some is almost tangible and if you can’t see that I’m not sure where you are looking. "
-hot air from people who apparently have nothing to offer to a discussion
Yet says:
"How is Wright damning America any worse the the anti-abortion folks claiming that God judges and/or condemns the US for legal abortion? Is it because he used the word damn rather than condemn? .. I certainly don’t agree that the gov’t infected anyone with AIDS "
" That said, I do believe we have fueled the fire of hatred in the extremists of Islam and have inflicted much damage on other countries which can drive rational people over the edge into fanaticism"
– no intention of ever trying to get to know [or] understand their viewpoint
Yet says
" You say Wright speaks venom, perhaps you haven’t set foot in a fundamentalist "christian" church lately"
" It is the minority, but a dangerous one, who are consumed by their crusade. And they may not control the national agenda but currently have a strong influence on it. Perhaps that will change with the next administration. All the obscene anti-SSM amendments are there because the extreme right of Christianty pushed and pushed until they got them on the ballots. "
-they get lost in their own bile and can’t see anything beyond it.
Yet says:
"I watched the clips that someone put together from Faux New and Hannity’s  hate show "
"As a gay man, no matter how conservative you are, you are on the top of the search and destroy list if they ever gain enough power"
=======
It’s a good thing Dave didn’t hypocrisy. or did he?
Dave, thanks for taking the time to clarify your issues. I must admit, that I fall into the trap of skipping quickly to the doctrinaire, liberal stereotype when I detect a few clues.
I (volunteer) work with people in our community who have serious problems blending with the mainstream. I try to approach each person as a child of God who has not purposely chosen to be on the fringe. (In fact, some are beyond my ability to understand.)
The problem with garden variety liberals is that they are long on valence issues (universal health care, peace, healthy environment, unity, love and respect, etc.) and short on road maps and specifics. I find Obama to be particularly guilty of this stereotype with his silly "audacity of hope" gossamer veil.
Christian fundamentalists have secure belief systems. You and I may not agree with them, but I do feel we must respect them. I do not find them a threat. There have been times when fundamentalist opinions have broken through to the mainstream an created a problem. (I am thinking of prohibition here.) I can not find any fault in the idea that every child should be a wanted child. However, when abortion becomes just another form of birth control, I am deeply troubled by the off handed way we can treat one of our greatest responsibilities.Â
Gay marriage is a sea change in the Judeo-Christian ethic. No gay is denied any Constitutional right. Gays have suffered from an indifferent application of the due process guarantees. Gays are not denied the right to marry; they just have to follow the customary formula. Christian fundamentalists who will not accept gay behavior are being true to their firmly held belief system. If a gay reaches out to a Christian fundamentalist and is scorned, then the Christian is definitely at fault. But no one should ever demand that a person with a well defined and known belief system should alter his belief system to accommodate political correctness.
If I were gay, I would not seek out Christian fundamentalists for approval. But I would not see them as the enemy, either.Â
Vince P – Great summary. My interaction with Dave in this thread began with taking Dave at Dave’s own word, when Dave said:
In other words: Dave telling us specifically that we ought to take him as agreeing with Wright’s controversial comments in all particulars.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Dave could get past his arrogance and hate, to see himself in the mirror for 10 seconds? That *he* visibly is, what he would so much like to accuse everyone else of being?
Someone may need to tune their humor detector as well.
Finally, as for this:
I am gay, and that is my position. (thanks ht)
(p.s., typo… I had meant to say Wright’s "controversial" comments, i.e., with scare quotes in there… because one could more accurately describe them as Wright’s HATE-FILLED, EVIL comments)
#43
Here’s a radical thought: Instead of bitching at us, why not bitch at the liberals who constantly portray all of you as such?
Further, if you ask folks here, I’m always asking questions trying to figure out why liberals are the way they are. Problem is that none seem capable of explaining it themselves.