Further, if you ask folks here, I’m always asking questions trying to figure out why liberals are the way they are. Problem is that none seem capable of explaining it themselves.

I watched the clips that someone put together from Faux New and Hannity’s hate show and there was not one thing Wright said that was not absolutely true.

In other words: Dave telling us specifically that we ought to take him as agreeing with Wright’s controversial comments in all particulars.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Dave could get past his arrogance and hate, to see himself in the mirror for 10 seconds? That *he* visibly is, what he would so much like to accuse everyone else of being?

ILC, I hope your violin practice went well, there’s not many sounds worse that a poorly played violin.

Someone may need to tune their humor detector as well.

Finally, as for this:

If I were gay, I would not seek out Christian fundamentalists for approval. But I would not see them as the enemy, either.

I am gay, and that is my position. (thanks ht)

I (volunteer) work with people in our community who have serious problems blending with the mainstream. I try to approach each person as a child of God who has not purposely chosen to be on the fringe. (In fact, some are beyond my ability to understand.)

The problem with garden variety liberals is that they are long on valence issues (universal health care, peace, healthy environment, unity, love and respect, etc.) and short on road maps and specifics. I find Obama to be particularly guilty of this stereotype with his silly "audacity of hope" gossamer veil.

Christian fundamentalists have secure belief systems. You and I may not agree with them, but I do feel we must respect them. I do not find them a threat. There have been times when fundamentalist opinions have broken through to the mainstream an created a problem. (I am thinking of prohibition here.) I can not find any fault in the idea that every child should be a wanted child. However, when abortion becomes just another form of birth control, I am deeply troubled by the off handed way we can treat one of our greatest responsibilities. 

Gay marriage is a sea change in the Judeo-Christian ethic. No gay is denied any Constitutional right. Gays have suffered from an indifferent application of the due process guarantees. Gays are not denied the right to marry; they just have to follow the customary formula. Christian fundamentalists who will not accept gay behavior are being true to their firmly held belief system. If a gay reaches out to a Christian fundamentalist and is scorned, then the Christian is definitely at fault. But no one should ever demand that a person with a well defined and known belief system should alter his belief system to accommodate political correctness.

If I were gay, I would not seek out Christian fundamentalists for approval. But I would not see them as the enemy, either. 

- no intention of ever trying to get to know [or] understand their viewpoint
Yet says
" You say Wright speaks venom, perhaps you haven’t set foot in a fundamentalist "christian" church lately"
" It is the minority, but a dangerous one, who are consumed by their crusade.  And they may not control the national agenda but currently have a strong influence on it.  Perhaps that will change with the next administration.  All the obscene anti-SSM amendments are there because the extreme right of Christianty pushed and pushed until they got them on the ballots. "

-they get lost in their own bile and can’t see anything beyond it.
Yet says:
"I watched the clips that someone put together from Faux New and Hannity’s   hate show "
"As a gay man, no matter how conservative you are, you are on the top of the search and destroy list if they ever gain enough power"
=======
It’s a good thing Dave didn’t hypocrisy. or did he?

My last statement was a joke that apparently fell quite flat.   But what to you call it when someone is constantly screeching about the evils of others with obviously no intention of ever trying to get to know our understand their viewpoint.  I don’t say anyone one on here hates me personally but the insane generalizations about liberals come from a place of ignorance and fear.  So don’t call it hate that’s fine with me but it is still an totally negative and irrational  attitude aimed at folks who by and large are not what they are being accused of and don’t belief what is claimed about them.  Anti-American, detesters of the founding fathers, condemning of the US are all false labels that have been thrown out on here in the last 40 posts.  A total and complete twisting of the words written by me and spoken by other liberals to make them say the most negative things and I’m giving some of the posters on here the benefit of the doubt, because if they aren’t twisting the words then it simply means they have a total lack of ability to read and understand the English language.  In #24 when I refer to tangible hate I did not mean anyone on here I apologize for not clarifying that.  And I agree that hate is self-consuming, if I need proof I only have to look at some of the most anti-gay voices, or the most anti-liberal voices or the most anti-conservative voices, they get lost in their own bile and can’t see anything beyond it.

"Like Dave’s time among the hateful fundamentalists, perhaps Obama was studying the congregation and learning ways to bring the races together. Or not. "

Let me defend the people I was with for those years – none of them (or almost none of them) were hateful people.  They are people unwilling to look beyond their beliefs and their "mission" to see the human being that they are dealing with.  Many of them were young, home-schooled, born in a pew Christians who had ideas (incorrect in my opinion) drilled into their heads from shortly after they were born and were unable to challenge those ideas.  Now 1) I am not against the concept of home-schooling 2) I am not agains people who have grown up in a conservative Christian environment.  Just wanted to clarify that before the accusations flew.  I stayed not to study them but because those were some of the best years of my life and even after I knew that I could no longer compromise my values and overlook the things that were so obviously wrong I put off leaving as long as possible.  And it wasn’t just a "gay thing", others came to the same conclusions and are far more bitter than I am.  I certainly can’t speak about Obama’s reasons

Again, Heliotrope thank you for your rational responses.

ILC
"if you call bullsh*t on a bullsh*t artist" then you better make sure that it’s really bullsh*t and not simply a reflection of your own nonsense that you so desperately need to see in others so you can justify it in yourself.

Well, the topic here is Wright and Obama so I feel no need to defend myself, or them actually.  Plus from the reports I’ve heard from people I know and the parts of Obama’s speech today I have read (in conservative news sources, no KOS involved) he blew the whole ridiculous attack on him out of the water and neither Hillary or McCain can benefit from it anymore.  Just my liberal opinion of course.
ILC, I hope your violin practice went well, there’s not many sounds worse that a poorly played violin.  Have a great evening.

Saying "God damn them", as Wright did of America, would be real hate.  But, as you point out, no one has done that.

Dave, I’ll think of you this morning during my violin practice.

Dave, you can not find evidence of hate or loathing expressed toward you in any words expressed in the comments above. I notice, however, that you drop the "hate" bomb with a rather cavalier abandon. 

For instance, in #24 your speak directly to me saying: " The hatred of some is almost tangible and if you can’t see that I’m not sure where you are looking." I suppose I could find a way to feel attacked by that statement, but it is too amorphous in its construction to grab a foothold of meaning. But you state that you have been in the company of "haters." Who, what, where, why, when? 

I am certain that I could find a venue where I would be shouted down, verbally abused and even be the recipient of tossed cups and pies. But I seriously doubt that group would be invested in "hate." I would consider them annoying jerks who had not yet matured enough to handle differing points of view.

If you have found "hate" here, you should spend some time with a neutral party who is expert in helping people handle their inner fears. I am not gay, so I do not encounter the problems that may befall those who are gay. However, I have many close friends and regular associates who are gay and your experience with "haters" is not a part of my knowledge and experience. Too often, people who have a high level of victim status are too focused on their own views of the world to find a way to understand the world as it really works. 

I once had a gay student who was certain he was being persecuted. He believed his mediocre work was graded down because of his homosexual status. Other students tired of his self pity and he saw them as being bigoted. It is not an unusual scenario with those who take on the victim mantle. There are real bigots to avoid, but there are also the shadows of our own minds. I say again, there are no "haters" in the comments above.

If you want to look for double meanings, evidence to prove your disgust for liberals and show that you must defend the nation and the world, you certainly will be able to find it.  If you read my words as written, or my explanation of statements you have misinterpreted then you might actually realize that your beliefs about me is simply wrong.  I’m not holding my breath for that to happen.  And sadly, I guess I have no choice but to hold on to my opinions about  people who claim to be conservative since it’s clear that some on here aren’t willing to see that any liberal can be different than what you think.   Since you insist that I (as an example of all liberals) am influenced by sources that I don’t even read or TV hosts that I never listen to then I guess it’s save to assume that all of you are influenced the loudest and most obnoxious (sp?) voices from the right.   The world is not black or white, either/or, yes or no.  If you (and many of the more extreme liberals) choose not to see that, then we are in for another period of massive upheaval in this country.  That’s too bad because it’s totally unavoidable.

So sorry for adding fuel to the fire, hence causing you to hate me and all liberals and bringing upon myself the worst of all possible reaction. 

I do not see that Wright was doing anything more than growing his congregation and his ego. But it certainly makes one wonder why the Obamas would be a long time part of the adoring congregants. Like Dave’s time among the hateful fundamentalists, perhaps Obama was studying the congregation and learning ways to bring the races together. Or not. 

Nope.
He’s a black liberal. To hold him to any standard is considered "racist". That, of course, is beside the point that you can’t hold liberals to ANY standard because they don’t stand for anything.

#16
We can be the country that the founding fathers envisioned but it requires honesty.

And we sure as HELL aren’t going to get honesty from liberals. Therefore it doesn’t require the liberal left, who obviously DETEST what the founding fathers envisioned. If I’m lying, why the hell are they constantly undermining that vision?

#24
Yes, a majority of the citizens have voted for them and some surely support them whole heartedly, but many simply did not bother to look at the implications of what they were doing.

So if the people don’t agree with you, it’s because they’re too damn stupid to know any better? Better yet, the liberals who claim we should abandon Iraq and run like hell haven’t bothered to look at the implications?

#28
Surely you cannot claim that ALL liberals would say the same thing I did, or that KOS did (and those are far different things).

There’s ZERO evidence to suggest otherwise. Liberals rely on the KOShole or DU bumper sticker slogans so that they don’t actually have to deal with reality. I don’t recall ever meeting a liberal that didn’t have an irrational hatred for Bush that wasn’t based on the liberal kook fringe lying points. That goes for the much vaunted assholes like Matthews, Olbersmear, Anderson Vanderbilt etc.

Again, do all conservatives believe the same, seems like it sometimes, a lot of things they say are so much the same they could be scripted.

If one looks beyond the lying points, they know it can’t be true, but would probably lie about it anyway. Again, I’ve yet to see any evidence of liberals "thinking" beyond the lying points. I can’t think of a single example of liberals telling the truth in the past (at least) 8 years.

#34
BTW, have you ever preached in front of a congregation?    It is quite easy to get caught up in the emotions that are coming from the people listening.

That’s what we call making excuses. Generally ministers are adult enough to control themselves and stick to the point rather than subverting their message to political folly.

That said, I do believe we have fueled the fire of hatred in the extremists of Islam and have inflicted much damage on other countries which can drive rational people over the edge into fanaticism.

Blowing oneself up *is* rational in Islam.  It’s nonsense to think that some non-Islamic force can cause someone to "lose their mind" in the Western sense and make them into suicidal religious extremists.
And anyway.. what did the US do to "fuel the fire".  If my chronology is correct we’ve done the following- 1920s – onward – Main benefactor and protector of the Muslim Saudi Arabian Kingdom

- 1950s – Protected Muslim Egypt from UK/France/Israel invasion

- 1979 – Began arming Egypt with weapons as reward for phoney peace with Israel

- 1980s – Tried to calm down the all-against-all violence in Lebanon.

- 1980s – Tried to liberate Muslim Afghanistan from Soviet occupation

- 1991 – Liberated Muslim Kuwait from Iraq

- 1990s – Supported the Muslim PLO and Muslim Palestinian Authority and pumped millions/billions of dollars to it

- 1991/2 – Established No-Fly-Zones in Iraq to protect Muslim Kurds/Shiites from Saddam

- 1992 – Led military effort to feed starving Muslims in chaotic Somalia
- Late 1990s – Protected Muslims in Bosnia

- 1999 – Bombed Serbia to protect Muslims in Serbian province of Kosovo

- 2002 – Pushed hated Taliban from power in Afghanistan

- 2003 – Pushed hated Baathist regime from power in Iraq

- 2004 – Provided relief to Indonesia and other Muslim states after disasterous Tsunami

- 2007 – Established renewed counter-insurgancy plan to protect Shiite and Sunni muslims from harm in Iraq

- 2007 (and before) – Betrayed Israel in order to assist Muslim Palestinian Authority in elusive "Peace Process"
The Muslims have been pushed to extremism because of us?  I dare ask.. who other than us have helped them to such an extent of treasure and blood?
What’s worse, people in this country like Dave, dont even acknoweldge what we have done. It’s contemptious how regressives like him have nothing but condemnation for the US. 

"…the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way — all of them who have tried to secularize America — I point the finger in their face and say ‘you helped this happen.’"

Deluded and wrong? Yes, on several levels. Nonetheless, the comments of a man who *regrets* 9-11 – a man who *does not want* bad things for America – a man who believes we may have forfeited God’s special protection and desperately need it back. Falwell apologized the next day to gays specifically, saying:

"I would never blame any human being except the terrorists, and if I left that impression with gays or lesbians or anyone else, I apologize."

Now here is the transcript of Wright:

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people,” he said in a 2003 sermon. “God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

The comments of a man wanting bad things for America. The comments of a man CALLING FOR or REQUESTING disaster from God. "God Bless America" is an invocation, the short form of "I sure hope God blesses America!" Likewise, in Wright’s context, "God damn America" is an invocation, the equivalent short form of "I sure hope God damns America!" If anyone knows of an apology from Wright, I’ve missed it and please let us know here.

I do believe we have fueled the fire of hatred in the extremists of Islam and have inflicted much damage on other countries which can drive rational people over the edge into fanaticism.

It’s still saying the same thing: That, in no small or inconsiderable part, *we* drove the Islamists to it. Now cut the crap. If, as you claim in your other statements, you really don’t think we brought 9-11 on ourselves: kindly stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

If you throw another log on a fire, does that mean you started the fire? No, it means you helped it get larger and hotter.

Precisely.  In truth, your working theory is that yes, we (America) did contribute to 9-11. That we did bring it on ourselves in no small part – "making it larger and hotter". Hey, let’s blame America!

And I have no need to pretend to agree with you on anything.

Then Dave – Why have you been pretending to?

have you ever preached in front of a congregation? It is quite easy to get caught up in the emotions that are coming from the people listening.

Ah. So now Wright isn’t responsible for his own words; rather, the hateful, vicious, EVIL, Fred Phelps-level things said by Wright are his audience’s fault. And who’s been in that audience, the majority of Sundays for 20 years? That audience that allegedly causes Wright’s emotions and words?  Hint: Barack and Michelle Obama.

I’ve already stated my agreement to the criticism of Obama for his response to this.  And I have no need to pretend to agree with you on anything. What would be the point?  I don’t say things with a hidden or double meaning so there’s no reason to look for it.

BTW, have you ever preached in front of a congregation?    It is quite easy to get caught up in the emotions that are coming from the people listening.  I’ve seen preachers say things that I know they didn’t mean to, or at least didn’t mean to say it the way they did.  It’s also easy, especially with a very responsive group of people, to try to feed the emotions or manipulate it.  Wright, with 20 years of preaching, is likely far more guilty of the second rather than the first.  I don’t say this in his defense, it’s just an observation.  But whatever, as others have said the issue is (or should be) Obama’s handling of Wright’s words being made public.

In the case of radical Islam the hatred was already there, we did not cause it…

we have fueled the fire of hatred in the extremists of Islam… [ed: i.e., we did cause it]

So, let me ask you (rather than assuming): Which one do you want to stick to?  Nobody gets to double-talk on GayPatriot, in my experience.

I’ve yet to run into anyone who believes Obama and if I do I have some swampland in Florida (I really do have some swampland) I’ll sell them cheap.

I keep wondering if Michelle Obama is the main reason the family is still affiliated with Trinity Church of Christ.  She may have agreed with Wright — after all, the woman is in her mid-40s and wasn’t finally proud of America until just a couple of weeks ago.

You certainly should remember your friend fondly but LGBT dislike of him came from much more than him "calling out their political agenda". Was he not one of the "blame the gays" after 9/11? I believe that he did change his attitudes in recent years.

In fact, as I recall, Falwell recanted quickly – within days.

And again, his original statement was more along the lines of "I believe God has damned America here" – NOT "I call upon God to damn America". The "Reverend" Wright unequivocally called upon – that is, *asked* – God to damn America.  That’s how evil, how utterly hate-filled, he is.

Did we deserve 9/11, absolutely not.

Why, thank you. How generous of you. Now, Dave, the Rev. Wright said America did deserve 9/11, or bring it on itself. Why hasn’t Obama explicitly repudiated that? Why has Obama, in fact, based entire books (The Audacity of Hope) on the Rev. Wright’s teachings?  Or attended his church for 20 years, as Ted and Gene point out?

I do believe we have fueled the fire of hatred in the extremists of Islam… [driving] rational people over the edge into fanaticism.

Oh, my mistake, Dave. You believe America brought 9-11 upon itself, after all. You only want to pretend to us (for rhetorical purposes?) that you don’t.

********

Jan. 20, 2009:  President John McCain will be inaugurated.  Rev. Wright will help the Democratic Party explode in 2008, just like they did in 1968. 

If this lingers enough and he loses big in Penn, we could really see a shifting in the race which already started back in March. Fight on Hillary, thats all you can do.