Trinity Church-gate Continues:
Obama “Would Have Walked”…
Obama “Would Have Walked”…
… but Obama’s money talked.
The Washington Post reports today that, according to their just-released tax returns, Barack and Michelle Obama gave $26,270 to Jeremiah Wright’s Trinity United Church of Christ in 2007. Together with his $22,500 donation in 2006, that makes just under $50,000 in the last two years. That’s got to complicate this second stage of Obama’s Wright damage control effort—the distancing stage, where he tells us he would have left the church if only Wright hadn’t retired, and that he and his pastor were never really that close.
Oh, its okay…. Obama is doing what every Elitist Liberal does: “Do as I SAY, not as I DO.” No wonder Obama is so popular with Latte Liberals and Plastic America. He truly is one of them.
After all, no one I know made anywhere CLOSE to $4.2 million dollars in 2007. Democrats truly are the party of the privileged & self-righteous.
Words matter, actions count.
-Bruce (GayPatriot)
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I find it quite odd that you would attack a church, regardless of its politics, that has a very long and established history of working for gay and lesbian rights. The United Church of Christ has been ordaining openly gay and lesbian pastors since the early 1970s (before homosexuality was removed from the DSM). It continues to work on behalf of marriage equality having endorsed it in 2005. As someone in the law field, I see the good work the UCC does for our community. They file amicus briefs supporting marriage equality for every state case where it is at issue.
You may criticize Rev. Wright all you like, but to extend that criticism to the larger church is not only unfair, it is attacking a community which has long been our community’s ally.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 1:19 pm - April 17, 2008
The more I hear about Obama Hussein Barack – the more I fear! I sure hope all of the leftover hippies take a good look and see that he much like Carter, a facade.
Comment by PatriotMom — April 17, 2008 @ 1:55 pm - April 17, 2008
I don’t see where GP conflates the Trinity UCC and the larger congregation but if the UCC wants to avoid tarnishment from Wright they should distance themselves from this hateful and moronic Black Liberation Theology. I’m unaware of the UCC being activist in this way but if they are, association with this crackpot is a counterpoint and at lease as valid as claims to their virtue. In any case, Trinity UCC, I wager, has no openly gay anything. Virulent anti-gay attitudes are of a piece with the other tenets we have seen displayed. If that is not the case for Obama’s church let’s see some details. Just what was done with Barry’s 50K? We know some things and they ain’t to cool. Also, this 50K represents damn near the sum total of the Obamas’ charitable giving to date. I don’t see how this squares with his routine claims of moral superiority but that mght be another good question for him.
Comment by megapotamus — April 17, 2008 @ 2:04 pm - April 17, 2008
Mega,
Well, actually you’re mistaken. Trinity UCC has been very proactive about gay and lesbian issues. Rev. Wright drew the ire of many local conservatives when he created a gay singles group at the congregation. He has also forcefully spoken out against HIV, and the government’s inadequate response to it, particularly with the African-American community.
You may passionately disagree with Rev. Wright’s politics but it is hard to argue that he has not been a valuable asset to his community and has spoken out bravely for oppressed groups, including the LGBT community.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 2:20 pm - April 17, 2008
I’ll cast asperions on the congregation.
They’re the ones who select their pastor. If they want to reside in some perputual victimhood , raising their kids to hate their country and brainwashing them in lies.. I lay tht right at the feet of all the idiots who attend that vile nasty place.
Comment by Vince P — April 17, 2008 @ 2:23 pm - April 17, 2008
First, I don’t believe that Wright’s congregation engages in “perpetual victimhood”. In fact, the congregation has had ENORMOUS success in their college prep and SAT classes. They have helped hundreds of people prepare for college and succeed while there. This has brought a number of people out of poverty — improving themselves and their community. Rev. Wright may be highly critical of the American government, but I think this blog would qualify for that designation as well.
Ultimately, I believe it is counter-productive to sensationalize this story and accept the sound-bites taken from Wright’s sermons at face value. Rev. Wright is within the long tradition among American mainline protestants and represents a tradition that has had profound influence on our country. Remember, the UCC is the oldest protestant tradition in the United States. Fully 25% of our member congregations were formed before the American Revolution. Nearly half of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were members of what is the now the UCC. It was the congregational polity and democratic aspirations of the early UCC which helped shape American political discourse and ultimately our democratic revolution.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 4:02 pm - April 17, 2008
So in other words, Dave, a pastor can spread as much deception and hate as he wants, because he and his church also do good things?
Really.. is that the standard? Having your church put the HAMAS charter in its buliten is ok?
Sorry .. that’s totally unacceptable for a church. What the hell are you people thinking.
Mr Wright in no way represents any tradition in this country, other than perhaps the Nation of Islam.
I read an article from the New Republic that was published last year that stated that Wright is a former Muslim… is that true?
Comment by Vince P — April 17, 2008 @ 4:54 pm - April 17, 2008
It was the congregational polity and democratic aspirations of the early UCC which helped shape American political discourse and ultimately our democratic revolution.
So where does Wright’s denominationally-endorsed and supported shrieking of “God damn America” and “America deserved 9/11″ fall into that?
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — April 17, 2008 @ 5:02 pm - April 17, 2008
First, the denomination is NOT supporting statements made by Rev. Wright. They are supporting his freedom to do so. There really is no mechanism for the national church to discipline Rev. Wright if the local association does not agree with the discipline taken.
Secondly, the church did not put the Hamas charter in its bulletin. The bulletin you are referring to was once affiliated with the congregation, but is no longer. Additionally, the article on Hamas was copied from the L.A. Times and not written by church staff. You’ll have to understand the deeply ecumenical tradition of the UCC. They make great efforts to reach out to other faith traditions — including Muslims.
Thirdly, I would suggest that Wright’s criticism of our government is well within our democratic tradition. He calls us to account for our history. This is hardly surprising given the history of our country in regards to African-Americans.
Regarding Wright’s former religious associations, I believe he, like many other urban African-American men, may have dabbled with the Nation of Islam when in college. Since then he has been a dedicated Christian minister for the last 30 years — working in a predominately Caucasian denomination.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 6:10 pm - April 17, 2008
North Dallas Thirty,
I’m assuming you live in Dallas. The Cathedral of Hope, the world’s largest gay church (located in Dallas), is a UCC congregation.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 6:11 pm - April 17, 2008
If Wright has been open to gay friendly policies it is certainly a point of commendation, especially as these things are, um, somewhat unpopular in the AA community. It does not expunge the more pungent claptrap we have seen but does suggest that like Obama, Wright perhaps does not take the rhetoric as seriously as one might think. For what that is worth…
I would appeal for a touch more civility towards David as he has demonstrated a stickler’s attention to that virtue himself.
Comment by megapotamus — April 17, 2008 @ 6:25 pm - April 17, 2008
First, the denomination is NOT supporting statements made by Rev. Wright. They are supporting his freedom to do so. There really is no mechanism for the national church to discipline Rev. Wright if the local association does not agree with the discipline taken.
Sure there is. It’s called “disassociation”, or basically saying, “Preach whatever hate you want, but we ain’t paying for it, supporting it, or having our names attached to it.”
And it frankly doesn’t surprise me that a denomination that supports and endorses Wright would endorse and support the Cathedral of Hope and its financial chicanery.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — April 17, 2008 @ 6:31 pm - April 17, 2008
“Sure there is. It’s called “disassociationâ€, or basically saying, “Preach whatever hate you want, but we ain’t paying for it, supporting it, or having our names attached to it.—
I’m sure that is appropriate in other churches. In the UCC, there is no mechanism for this. The national church, based in Cleveland, is entirely powerless over its member congregations. All authority is vested in the local congregation. The association (a local group of congregations) may remove the ministerial standing of a pastor, but only with the approval of the larger conference. Even with this, however, a pastor can remain at the congregation which has chosen him. He simply loses his church pension and health insurance.
Regarding the Cathedral of Hope — first, the accusations of financial impropriety have largely been dismissed with a further audit. Secondly, this happened before the Cathedral of Hope joined the UCC. The audit was requested by the UCC before the congregation joined the denomination.
Like I mentioned in a previous post, the UCC spans all political affiliations. Our members include Barrack Obama and Jeffrey Lord (Ronald Reagan’s policy adviser). We have 10 members in the US House — 5 Democrats and 5 Republicans.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 7:15 pm - April 17, 2008
Thirdly, I would suggest that Wright’s criticism of our government is well within our democratic tradition. He calls us to account for our history. This is hardly surprising given the history of our country in regards to African-Americans.
I dont recall a tradition of preaching blantant lies of the most vile kind about the nation .
He calls nothing into account for many many things never have happened. The United States did not invent HIV and then go around infecting with it. Nor did they sell drugs in teh cities. Nor is the Govt a faction of a white conspiracy to oppress whites.
Does any of this do anyone any good? How’d you like to be a white person in that church and hear the vile anti-white bigotry coming from the preacher man?
No wonder Michelle Obama is a bitter , broken person. listen to what she feeds her soul with.
I know you’re not responsible Dave but cmon. If we demand the Muslims to restrain thier extremists then as Christians we need to do the same and reject it when preachers tell LIES (not criticisms.. LIES) about the country.
Do you think God looks appovingly on as lies lies lies are being screamed at the top of the lungs of a maniac preacher?
Comment by Vince P — April 17, 2008 @ 7:19 pm - April 17, 2008
I’m just finding out about the Israel Divestment agenda the UCC considered adopting.
Well that seals it for me. Christians are bound by morals and the Bible to support the Jewish people, especially in their struggle to remain secure in their homeland.
I have contempt for all forms of Anti-Zionism.
Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go out from your country, your relatives, and your father’s household to the land that I will show you. Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, so that you will exemplify divine blessing. I will bless those who bless you,
but the one who treats you lightly I must curse”
God Bless Israel and the US.
Comment by Vince P — April 17, 2008 @ 7:29 pm - April 17, 2008
No, I don’t agree that lies should be told from the pulpit. And you’re quite correct about Wright’s statements on HIV and drugs. He has a very tenuous grasp on science. And yet, I don’t believe there is malice in these statements. Wright, and many other African-Americans, have developed a deep distrust of our government. Given the 300 year history of African-Americans in this country, the reasons for this are complex. I certainly don’t believe that HIV was created by the government, but I can understand the reasoning used by those who do. Remember, it was within the lifetime of many members at Trinity UCC that the government tested syphilis on African-American men and allowed some of them to die without treatment.
Regarding Trinity’s racism towards Caucasians you’ll have to provide me some more evidence of that. I’ve known a number of white people from my congregation here in California that have visited Trinity UCC and they all uniformly report that it was a positive experience. The conference minister for Illinois, a middle-aged white woman, is a member of Trinity UCC. Additionally, the larger denomination that Trinity is within is overwhelmingly white (with its largest concentration in New England). And yet, Trinity has generously given millions of dollars to support the mission activities of this denomination.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 7:36 pm - April 17, 2008
Vince,
You’re jumping from one issue to another so fast I can’t keep up.
Hopefully, the information you read about the UCC’s proposed plan on Israeli divestment was up to date. The UCC never went through divestment due to internal opposition. It was debated upon at a general synod and was later defeated. It came about during the same time the Presbyterian and United Methodist churches were also considering divestment. The UCC, does however, engage in “targeted investment” in the middle east in an effort to further the peace process. We are, though, talking about a VERY small amount of the UCC’s budget. Member congregations take in about $1B a year from their members. From that amount, about $30M is passed on to the national church. From that $30M, perhaps $3M is used for these purposes. It is the literal drop in the bucket.
Comment by David — April 17, 2008 @ 7:43 pm - April 17, 2008
I was on a roll
Thanks for your kind answers.
Comment by Vince P — April 17, 2008 @ 8:12 pm - April 17, 2008
How fascinating that “God Damn America!”, shouted not once but three times to incite a congregation, could seriously pass for “criticism of our government” with some people.
Kindly explain how accusing our country falsely, emotionally and stupidly – i.e., without evidence – but nonetheless vehemently, could *not* be coming from a state/place of malice. It’s so far beyond the “distrust” you attempt to cite. Can’t you see that? David, what have you been smoking all these years?
Its top pastor for 20 years would rant on and on about the evil of the “white church”, what “rich white people” are up to, etc. What would you think of a Church, David, where the top (white) pastor ranted on and on for 20 years about the evil of the “black church”, what the world’s “rich black people” are up to, etc.? Think there might be some racism there?
Add hypocrisy to the list of Wright’s sins, of course, because now he lives in a multi-million dollar home in a rich, gated white neighborhood.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — April 18, 2008 @ 2:16 pm - April 18, 2008
David-
I also appreciate your thoughtful responses. Thank you for joining this debate!
Comment by Bruce (GayPatriot) — April 18, 2008 @ 2:59 pm - April 18, 2008
I Love Capitalism,
I think two people can watch a sermon and get two very different things from it. I watch Rev. Wright and I don’t see the racism you decry. Rev. Wright answers to a conference minister who is a white woman. Much of the mission work he does outside his congregation is directed towards the largely Caucasian UCC denomination. He most certainly criticizes those in power (many of them Caucasian) but that is clearly within the Christian tradition.
Rev. Wright, remember, volunteered for Vietnam not once but twice. His first tour of duty was with the Marines, his second with the Navy. He gave up a student deferment to join the military and received three commendations for his work there (including one from LBJ). Of course, this does not immunize him from criticism but it does speak to his commitment to our country and his patriotism.
Regarding Rev. Wright’s retirement home, that is actually a parsonage owned by the church. It will be sold, with the money returned to the congregation, when Rev. Wright dies. I can’t defend the personal decisions made by members at Trinity, but apparently an affluent member decided to donate to this purpose. I could think of much better uses for my money, but then again I don’t blame Trinity members for wanting to take care of the minister who gave much of his life to this church.
Comment by David — April 18, 2008 @ 4:28 pm - April 18, 2008
Yes, I agree that we have established that.
I agree 100%. But, are absurdly-false accusations and “God Damn America” also within the Christian tradition? I dare say they aren’t. Anyway, it’s a different question.
Remember, Wright lives in a State that has spent tens of thousands of lives in the last 160 years, and a Nation that has spent hundreds of thousands of lives, to end slavery and to free people throughout the world. Not to enslave Wright or anybody.
Yes, his past commitment. His earlier patriotism, which later he renounced when he publicly screamed for God to condemn America.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — April 18, 2008 @ 4:53 pm - April 18, 2008
“His earlier patriotism, which later he renounced when he publicly screamed for God to condemn America.”
I think you should read the full sermon from which that sound byte was derived. Rev. Wright most certainly did not call upon God to damn anyone — he called for God to condemn a government which stands for injustice.
And yes, I agree that America has made enormous contributions towards the advancement of democracy. However, it is still true that in the 300 years African-Americans have been in this country, only in the last 60 have there not been laws which deprive them of equal protection under the law.
I encourage you to read Rev. Wright’s sermons in their entirety. It may very well change how you view the man.
Peace and Blessings!!
Comment by David — April 18, 2008 @ 5:07 pm - April 18, 2008
“God bless America” is a frequently used invocation. It is the short form of “I sure hope God will bless America”, or “I hereby call upon God to bless America”.
*In context*, Wright offered a contrasting “God damn America” as a direct analogy. “In context*, therefore, Wright was offering an invocation, the short form of “I sure hope God will damn America”, or “I hereby call upon God to damn America”.
Not “its government”. And shouted, three times, for emphasis. Kindly wake up to that.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — April 18, 2008 @ 5:21 pm - April 18, 2008
For the record, here is the quote in context:
Two things stand out:
1) The absurd falseness of half of Wright’s claims.
2) The use of “God damn America” as an invocation, explicitly and intentionally following the model of what people normally say, “God bless America”.
May God bless the United States of America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — April 18, 2008 @ 5:34 pm - April 18, 2008
I don’t want to argue with anyone. We can go around and around discussing what Wright meant by this statement. I can only speak as someone actively involved in the UCC who is quite familiar with Rev. Wright and have been for years. I don’t see much difference between the sermon you are referencing and MLK’s sermon on Vietnam in which he called the American government the most “violent in the world”. I thank God we have ministers who make us squirm and feel uncomfortable. They challenge our beliefs and assumptions and help us recognize the injustices we have been ignoring.
I again encourage you to further explore the UCC and Rev. Wright. As a church, the UCC has done enormous good for the LGBT community. It was the UCC which created PFLAG and fought bravely for marriage equality in Massachusetts. It was the UCC that wrote the famous “Serenity Prayer” and it was the UCC which paid the bail for MLK in Birmingham. Our ministers are a exasperating group, but they certainly make us think.
Peace and Blessings!
Comment by David — April 18, 2008 @ 5:37 pm - April 18, 2008
*Anyone*? Not even terrorists, or people who would destroy America or kill your family? (BTW, if you meant me: I’m not arguing with you, just putting quotes and facts on the record.)
Unfortunately, Wright fails to do that. His claims are too grotesque or obviously false. Rhetoric is like any other means of power; when you go overboard, you render it powerless.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — April 18, 2008 @ 6:49 pm - April 18, 2008
This is a brutal clip of how B Hussien Obama mischaracterizes the words of other people in the most deceitful manner.
I would love to see people from his church call him out for being the very thing he falsely claims … a lying divisive politician
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WynLgJFBxSs
Comment by Vince P — April 18, 2008 @ 6:58 pm - April 18, 2008
Well, if you’re looking for conservative UCC members who would never vote for Obama you don’t have to go far. There are a number of conservative and libertarian UCC blogs on the Internet.
Jeffrey Lord, a fellow UCC member, has written a number of critical articles on Obama in the American Spectator magazine. Mr. Lord used to be a policy adviser to Ronald Reagan.
Comment by David — April 18, 2008 @ 7:04 pm - April 18, 2008
Translation: Rev. Wright SAID YES to living in a rich, white-ish, gated community.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — April 18, 2008 @ 8:57 pm - April 18, 2008
ILC: Check out the video of Mr New Politics in my comment number 28 and let me know waht you think of that UCC church member
Comment by Vince P — April 18, 2008 @ 9:25 pm - April 18, 2008
Let’s be clear, David. It was not the Presbyterian Church angling for divestiture from Israel. It was the liberal Presbyterian Church USA and not the Presbyterian Church in America.
Further, with respect, you’ve made excuses for Wright and the racism he holds. Maybe he isn’t that bad of a guy. From his own mouth, however, he asked God to DAMN America. There’s NO excuse for that. He rants on with anti-Semitic comments. There’s NO excuse for that. He rants on with condemnation, not only of whites in America but elsewhere. There’s NO excuse for that. There is ZERO excuse I can think of for any Christian to incite such hatred amongst his flock.
You can spin it, excuse it and contextualize it into whatever the hell makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. But make no mistake, Wright is a hate monger. If he wasn’t, he wouldn’t make the comments he has made. He didn’t “misspeak”. He said what was on his mind and in his heart. There’s not a damn thing you could tell me to convince me that he doesn’t hate whites and Jews. What’s more, there are a lot of veterans out there who have a strong hatred for this country. John F.You Kerry is a prime example. Yeah, it’s great that he served. Still doesn’t change the fact that he’s an asshole.
End of story.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — April 19, 2008 @ 3:43 am - April 19, 2008