Gay Men’s Neuroses, A Reader’s View
A reader just messaged me his view on why gay men are so neurotic. While I don’t think this holds true for all gay men, I do think it applies to some, particularly those who live not far from me in the center of West Hollywood.
WIth his permission, I quote his message verbatim and invite you to offer your own thoughts in the comment section:
Well, the community idolizes youth and sees older than 30 as “throwaway”, yet worships material goods and lifestyles that rarely ever become affordable until at LEAST one’s late 30s, sometimes later. It’s an unspoken neurosis!
UPDATE: When a reader messaged me his thought, I decided to post on it as I thought it was certain to stir up controversy and conversation — as it has. Which is good because with my trip back home, my return to LA and now my Theater Managing duties at Outfest (it’s not too late to get tickets–if last night is any indication, the program includes a lot of powerful films), I don’t really have much energy to write today, but may yet do a short post on media bias.
Anyway, while thinking about my friend’s comment, I recalled a script I had mapped out which fits the pattern of gay neurosis he described. The story begins with a twentysomething guy trying to buy something expensive in a trendy Palm Springs shop. When he learns he has maxed out his credit card, the clerk lets him buy the item because his partner’s credit is always good here.
This young’un has shacked up with a rich older man to have all the privileges of wealth while still a “hottie.” His older lover tolerates his occasional “extra-marital” flings so long as he’s there when he needs him (sexually and for “display” purposes).
Well, the young man’s life changes when his partner’s next door neighbor, a successful Hollywood agent, lets one of his charity clients, a writer who barely scrapes by, stay at his desert home for a few weeks. Attracted by this man not all that much older than he, the young man reevaluates his life, wondering if he could give up his lifestyle with the rich old man to share a different life with a (relatively) impoverished artist whom he loves.
Those who know me can figure out how it ends (in my imagination). And that ending shows how, I believe, gay men can best address that “neurosis.”
Totally true.
Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — July 11, 2008 @ 1:29 pm - July 11, 2008
I think it goes deeper than that.
What the gay community tends to put its self-worth in are externals. Your value is determined by how you look, the car you drive, the clothes you wear, and the places in which you’re seen — not how you behave.
This whole mentality explains the gay community obsession with getting respect through pieces of paper, i.e. laws and marriage licenses, versus earning it through actual behavior.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — July 11, 2008 @ 1:39 pm - July 11, 2008
The above catalogs one or two neuroses, but don’t get me started. Even the gay guys with “good values” can be irritatingly skittish and conflicted (i.e., neurotic).
Case in point: a mini-first-date I had with someone last night. It did come up suddenly or rather unexpectedly. Kept it down to 90 minutes over a beer. Good conversation. Smart guy. Lots of mutual interests uncovered. Mutually acceptable politics and philosophies. Ended with *him* offering to hang out more; even giving info I hadn’t requested about his living situation. This morning I sent a short follow-up e-mail (OK, let’s figure out our next get together). The new day’s attitude? “I really enjoyed meeting you too. However, let’s leave it at that.” (ILC’s forehead thunks keyboard)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 1:59 pm - July 11, 2008
Materialism, sexual conquests, and slips of paper from the government will never fill the aching void of a self-centered, meaningless existence.
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 2:00 pm - July 11, 2008
Well, the community idolizes youth and sees older than 30 as “throwaway”, yet worships material goods and lifestyles that rarely ever become affordable until at LEAST one’s late 30s, sometimes later. It’s an unspoken neurosis!
This is different from straight society how?
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 2:09 pm - July 11, 2008
Henry…you read my mind and stole my line..LOL..I was thinking exactly that!
My str8 friends say the same thing and complain about the same thing. I believe it applies to both Gay and Str8…nature of the beast so to speak.
Comment by Rocket — July 11, 2008 @ 2:26 pm - July 11, 2008
Disagree. There is a “community” of straights who are like that, but many more of them just get married and get on with their lives. Oh, I forgot, gay people are supposed to pretend they don’t exist.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 2:35 pm - July 11, 2008
This is different from straight society how?
It is profoundly different from straight society outside the media and the blue coastal enclaves.
In the straight community I belong to, people are valued based on the moral standards they uphold and their contributions to the community.
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 2:36 pm - July 11, 2008
7 Disagree. There is a “community” of straights who are like that“
Aren’t there a community of gays who are not like that? Are there no ‘value based’ gay people?
In the straight community I belong to, people are valued based on the moral standards they uphold and their contributions to the community.
Funny, the gay community I belong to, in my blue costal enclave, is like that. All over 30. All in relationships longer than 7 years. 1/2 have kids (including me and my partner). Some are on school boards. Some volunteer.
Or is there only 1 gay community?
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 2:48 pm - July 11, 2008
I wonder if people will ever grow up to the point where they realize “straights do it, too” is no excuse for bad gay behavior?
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 2:57 pm - July 11, 2008
Henry, I love the efforts to obfuscate, like the goalpost-moving. Keep it up!
(At #5, Henry endorses the ideas that the gay community is materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping, excusing it on the grounds that “straight society” is the same. But, with the latter bit easily shot down, by #9 Henry has shifted to different arguments/assertions: suddenly there is more than one “gay community”, suddenly the average gay does have values and Henry’s here to tell us, yadda yadda.)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 2:57 pm - July 11, 2008
Henry endorses the ideas that the gay community is materialistic…by #9 Henry has shifted to different arguments
Actually, what happened is that people responded to my comment, and I responded to those responses. In fact, You brought up that only a community of straights are materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping. The rest, you said, just want to get on with thier lives.
That prompted me to respond asking if there weren’t communities within the gay community, since you suggested that as a defense to that impression of the straight community.
Then VtK said that straights were different away from the ‘blue costal enclaves’. WHich lead me to offer a disagreement, that you can find ‘values’ even in blue coastal San Francisco.
The fact is that, while not exactly the same, the gay community and straight community are not all that different. American society as a whole is overly focused on a material existence and youth culture.
And, sadly perhaps, that’s true of ‘middle’ America as well as the blue coastal enclaves. However, like any broad sweeping statement about millions of people there are plenty of exceptions to the general rule.
It’s not moving a goal post, it’s bringing the focus in or out, in response to where you said you were looking.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 3:11 pm - July 11, 2008
Getting back to Dan’s point, politically correctness requires society to cater to the emotion’s of society’s most dysfunctional and neurotic components. I’m thinking in particular of that hypersensitive, dim-witted Dallas county councilman whose panties got into a wad because someone referred to a dysfunctional bureaucracy as a “black hole.” And it seems no one, except for a few on the “right wing” have the nads to tell that idiot to get over himself.
Society, in general, as it has become more narcissistic and materialistic has gotten to the point where neurotic dysfunction is accepted as the norm and catered to, especially in the mainstream of the gay community. Things like the Folsom Street Fair could not exist without broad acceptance in the community. In Britain, gays are protesting the removal of shrubberies because it will make it harder to engage in public sex. I could go on. But the main point is, looking for meaning in the wrong places leads to bitterness. Which is why bitterness is driving the politics and culture of the left right now.
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 3:21 pm - July 11, 2008
More goalpost-moving from Henry. I had actually pointed out that:
At #5 - Henry’s *initial* comment in this thread, he did that. Followed by his shifting to different arguments / goalposts, when people easily blew that apart. But Henry strategically mis-quotes me as having claimed:
Eliminating the part about #5 / his first comment, so that he can pose and posture as someone who was only responding to responses where “people responded to [his] comment”. As if we all can’t read the thread, LOL!
Well, moving on:
No actually, they are fairly different. I already acknowledged, at #7, that you would want to deny that.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 4:19 pm - July 11, 2008
I don’t think we need to spend too much time on Henry. He only comes here ‘cos no one reads his blog. The point is, the gay community, being very media-centric, has internalized the worst Hollywood values: youth-worship, materialism, attention-whoring, self-gratification uber alles these aren’t straight values, they aren’t American values… they *are* Hollywood values. And the only people in Hollywood who don’t seem neurotic are the people who reject them.
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 4:28 pm - July 11, 2008
I know V - it’s just fun to take the “pomp” out of someone who’s pompous. But I’ll stop. Yes to the Hollywood values, except I would call them Hollywood-academia-hippie values. I can’t put stock in any hard numbers, but my guess or sense of it is that gays are about 70-30 that way, while straights are more like 30-70.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 4:32 pm - July 11, 2008
(Which still leaves more straights being that way, in absolute numbers… I’m thinking in terms of approx. percentages / averages.)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 4:33 pm - July 11, 2008
More goalpost-moving from Henry. I had actually pointed out that…
Okay, I’ll try to go slow.
You may wish to note that these”…” are ellipsis, indicating that part of the statement were omitted. Indeed, not only am I aware that people “can” read the threads, I assumed that they had. Using ellipsis is a generally accepted way of quoting someone without quoting the whole block.
If we’re going to get nit picky, perhaps I would point out that at no time did I “[endorse] the ideas that the gay community is materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping,” I merely asked “How is that different than straight people?”.
But you read that and modified it. You didn’t even directly quote me, you posed a interpretation of what I wrote, then responded to your own interpretation, then chided me for going beyond what you stated as an interpretation of my comment.
My subsequent comments are not inconsistent with my first comment. And you have yet to respond to any substantive comments I made, rather delighting in criticizing and suggesting bad intent to me editing of your prior comments which, as you point out, are easily readable.
So, answer my question. Is there only 1 gay community, to which all ills attributable to them are vicariously attributable to all gays?
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 4:37 pm - July 11, 2008
Henry, I could say something snarky about your not only believing that others can’t read the thread, but your apparently not being very good at reading it yourself. Instead, though, I’ll just note that it’s cute when you stamp your little foot.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 4:57 pm - July 11, 2008
If gays and straights are exactly the same. please remind me why we need hate crimes and Enda?
Can we at least acknowledge that ‘Gay’ is different - this is not an organic culture that flows from one generation to the next. Gays are born to hetero parents, if they are lucky - upon coming out, they are accepted by their family and community. Often they aren’t. So They forge out into the ‘gay community’ and are bombarded with the superficial worship of youth, beauty and acquiring possessions.
In the last 20 years, with more openness from the general population, many gays are forming marriages and family (even before the government gave them that piece of paper). Which actually throws these people back into the hetero world. Since most of their children are hetero.
As ILC’s story in 3. highlights, dating isn’t normal. I have no idea what the rules are, but clearly neither did ILC, since what he assumed was the case at night changed radically by morning. Yeah, that will lead to a lot of neurosis.
Henry, since you seemed to have chosen the second choice, of partnership and children, what are you doing to educate the new generation of young gays about the choices they should make with their lives? Are you willing to say to them the self control, committing to one person and having children is the way to have a happy, healthy life. That the superficial life offered by the gay culture we see all over the media is a recipe for unhappiness and neurosis?
Comment by Leah — July 11, 2008 @ 5:01 pm - July 11, 2008
my guess or sense of it is that gays are about 70-30 that way, while straights are more like 30-70
I think you’re in the ball-park, there.
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 5:12 pm - July 11, 2008
The “culture” we are discussing is simply what we get when we have a large population of people over thirty and single. After 30, “How old is he?” becomes a question asked more and more for a variety of reasons. It’s as common as any cliche: “Why is youth wasted on the young?” Straight men over 30 are usually married and unconcerned about the 50 pounds they’ve gained since college. Gay men over 30 are more often single, or will be a year from now. The realization that youth is slipping away coupled with fears of lonliness create concerns that can develop into a nonproductive “focus.” Gay marriage will not “cure” this, but it will provide an option for gay men who long for a more secure family and the values that that “lifestyle” encourages.
Comment by MikeInSedona — July 11, 2008 @ 5:27 pm - July 11, 2008
Funny, the gay community I belong to, in my blue costal enclave, is like that.
Yes, let’s show an example of the “values” of gays in blue coastal areas.
Some of the most unlikely attendees of Sunday’s kinky leather fetish festival were under four feet tall.
Two-year-olds Zola and Veronica Kruschel waddled through Folsom Street Fair amidst strangers in fishnets and leather crotch pouches, semi and fully nude men.
The twin girls who were also dressed for the event wore identical lace blouses, floral bonnets and black leather collars purchased from a pet store.
Fathers Gary Beuschel and John Kruse watched over them closely. They were proud to show the twins off……..
Father of two, John Kruse said it is an educational experience for children. He said there were conservative parents against having kids at the event.
“Those are the same close-minded people who think we shouldn’t have children to begin with,” he said.
Lovely, isn’t it? Dress your children up as sexual slaves, take them to a sex fair where adults strut around naked, have sex, and masturbate in front of them, then write it off as an “educational experience” and claim that anyone who disagrees with you doing it is “close-minded”.
Next:
The “culture” we are discussing is simply what we get when we have a large population of people over thirty and single.
Which is what you get in a community that is locked in a state of perpetual adolescent irresponsibility.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — July 11, 2008 @ 6:00 pm - July 11, 2008
Gay marriage will not “cure” this, but it will provide an option for gay men who long for a more secure family and the values that that “lifestyle” encourages.
Unfortunately, as we’ve already seen, gay marriage does nothing to stop adolescent and irresponsible behavior.
Blaming the absence of marriage is simply making excuses for gay mens’ unwillingness to commit or take sexual responsibility.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — July 11, 2008 @ 6:09 pm - July 11, 2008
Give it time, NDT. Culture is a many-sided equilibrium and it rarely changes overnight, or even in the space of a few years. Usually, it takes about 2 generations.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 6:35 pm - July 11, 2008
Comic relief: Iowahawk has a new one…
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 11, 2008 @ 7:07 pm - July 11, 2008
I’ll just note that it’s cute when you stamp your little foot.
So, still avoiding answering the question. I’ll ask again. Are you suggesting that there is only 1 gay community, and that the acts of that community are applicable to all people gay?
Or, does the Gay Community get the same benefit you give the straight community?
Hey, I am cute when I stamp my little feet.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 7:35 pm - July 11, 2008
I don’t know Henry…but those that think that there is not much difference between Gays and str8s on just about every level)one comment was that the GLBT community likes gossip, Hollywood..etc…) I mean hello….have you checked out entertainment shows, gossip shows and MTV….they appeal to and cater to str8s….by and large and not Gays…..The hetero activities of Hollywood are always talked about….rarely do Gays even make it to such stories……those that think that str8 men are happily married…better get a clue and buy a vowel…I have been hit on more str8 men then I ever dreamed of who have active sex lives on the down low….and I just tell them to go home to their wives and leave me be…..and I bet every Gay man can recount stories of str8 guys who come on to them…..and that applies to red states/blue states, middle America and the coasts…
we live in an instant society….and instant gratification…and if you think every Gay man is a fit gym bunny..wrong again..we come in all shapes and sizes…..from bears to cubs to twinks to muscle guys to every day regular guys and quite frankly there are more str8 men who look so metrosexual that you can’t tell a Gay guy from a str8 one at all……they screw up the Gaydar something awful.
I mean people……relax a little….I can’t tell you how many of my str8 friends recount the same story that was first posted here about thinking they had a connection in a date and then blown off the next day……it happens in all communities….not just the Gay one…
Comment by Rocket — July 11, 2008 @ 7:51 pm - July 11, 2008
Henry, since you seemed to have chosen the second choice… what are you doing to educate the new generation of young gays …That the superficial life offered by the gay culture we see all over the media is a recipe for unhappiness and neurosis?
(Disclaimer for ILC: I edited Leah’s comments and I’m answering them out of the order she posted them in. Feel free to read her original post if it is confusing)
Probably the best things I do are two-fold. I am very out everywhere (as is my partner) and we are very visible. I used to be more active in the gay community, but am less so now as I try to spend what free time I have with my family. We belong to several gay family groups, some of which also have gay youth focus, but I would be lying if I suggested that the community you’re asking about was impacted much by them.
If gays and straights are exactly the same. please remind me why we need hate crimes and Enda?
Why do we have protections on gender? Why do we have protections based on religion? What do we have protections on race. I never claimed that gay and straights were exactly the same, obviously there are some differences.
So They forge out into the ‘gay community’ and are bombarded with the superficial worship of youth, beauty and acquiring possessions.
I think the gay ghettos, where lots of gay people collect for safety and acceptance has within it some problems (drugs, alcohol, risky behaviors). That said, the specific issue of youth, beauty, and possessions are in now way unique to the gay youth. Nor is the sometimes unhealthy obsession the older generation has with youth. Look at McCain, Limbaugh, Gingrich – arguably “value” straights, and none of them from blue coastal enclaves – yet all left their wives for much younger (and arguably more attractive) women. (Note: For those about to leap, I freely acknowledge that this problem also exists on the Dem side – but dems are from Liberal, Coastal Enclaves and are not ‘value’ people – or so the argument here would go.)
That the superficial life offered by the gay culture we see all over the media is a recipe for unhappiness and neurosis?
If you think drug use, risky sex, and a fascination with youth and beauty are issues facing only gay youth, you haven’t been on a college campus in a while.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 7:53 pm - July 11, 2008
15. He only comes here ‘cos no one reads his blog.
Actually, VtK, I come for the witty banter.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 8:10 pm - July 11, 2008
So, the gay community isn’t a monolith, but any gay person who isn’t a left-wing Democrat is a self-loathing traitor?
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 8:16 pm - July 11, 2008
Henry: we get it.
Every time someone says something about gays.. we will all make a mental note that henry says straights do it too.
Got it.
Comment by Vince P — July 11, 2008 @ 8:52 pm - July 11, 2008
Every time someone says something about gays.. we will all make a mental note that henry says straights do it too.
That would make it easier.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 8:59 pm - July 11, 2008
Isn’t that what a six-year-old kid does when he gets reprimanded? Points out that some other kid does the same thing and gets away with it?
Some people grow up. Some people don’t.
Comment by V the K — July 11, 2008 @ 9:04 pm - July 11, 2008
34. Isn’t that what a six-year-old kid does when he gets reprimanded?
See? Witty.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 9:22 pm - July 11, 2008
“So, still avoiding answering the question. I’ll ask again. Are you suggesting that there is only 1 gay community, and that the acts of that community are applicable to all people gay?”
As far as I can see the question still hasn’t been answered.
The idea that there is ONE gay community is a weapon of those against us that they use to condemn all of us for the actions of some. V the K - being a self-loathing traitor has nothing to do with party or right/left politics and all to do with accepting the lies that are told about us mostly but not exclusively by the right. The idea that all or even most gay men fit the description that started this thread is not only ridiculous but it is harmful. There are many communities under the “umbrella” of the gay community and many lifestyles, values and beliefs. Sure, we work together as one community, or should anyway, but in reality there is little that we share in common. It strikes me as pretty bizarre that the truth of that seems to escape some on here while at the same time they are part of a group which is in many ways outside of the “mainstream” and in their own words “just happen to be gay”. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised though.
Saying “straights do it too” is not an attempt to justify “bad” gay behavior. Unless of course you believe that ONLY gays act that way or MOST gays act that way then of course you will want to minimize the fact that there is NOTHING that “bad” gay people practice that does not have a heterosexual equivalent. Somehow it’s worse when the homos do it? It’s very disturbing to see words straight (no pun intended) from the “why fags are disgusting and heterosexuals are perfect” handbook written in these comments. Peter LaBarbera would feel right at home. I wonder - if some of you are so repulsed by what you think “gay” is then why not go the ex-gay route - for some it’s a very positive experience. If you can’t see or even try to see what is positive in the “gay community” then why bother looking at it or talking about it at all? Or is it that, just like liberal bashing, it makes you feel manly and powerful without ever having to present useful information or ideas of how to make a difference in whatever the topic is at the moment.
At least GPW gets it right: “While I don’t think this holds true for all gay men, I do think it applies to some, particularly those who live not far from me in the center of West Hollywood.”
Comment by Dave — July 11, 2008 @ 10:48 pm - July 11, 2008
Well, Dave, I think you summed it up best….thanks:)
Comment by Rocket — July 11, 2008 @ 11:02 pm - July 11, 2008
Well, Dave, I think you summed it up best….thanks:)
Ditto.
Comment by Henry — July 11, 2008 @ 11:30 pm - July 11, 2008
I think Mike makes excellent points here. I was as closeted as it’s possible to be until I was nearing 40. When I finally came to terms with being gay, I really feared that I’d spend the rest of my life alone… my exposure to the gay “community” (in Oklahoma!) was pretty much what Dan described: men of all ages obsessed with young and pretty (I’m neither); older men in red convertibles acting like they were 25. It all seemed so sad to me. I think we fear loneliness as much as death.
NDT is right, too: marriage won’t cure this problem. Society’s expectations that (used to) go with marriage will be the cure. Married people are expected to grow up.
A lot of single men never grow up (there was a good article in City Journal a while back about this problem).
Comment by Robert — July 11, 2008 @ 11:43 pm - July 11, 2008
LOL….and notice how Dave, while blabbing about the “diversity” in the gay community, makes it clear that people who disagree with him or who dare to criticize other gay people are not really gay, are self-loathing traitors, and should go to ex-gay therapy.
This is why the “one gay community” idea is perfectly valid — because, as we’ve seen here, gays like Dave and Henry do their best to insure that any REAL diversity of thought or ideology is quashed under a hail of insults and namecalling. Their response to dissent is to expel the person from their “community” and insist they should become “ex-gay”.
One wonders why Dave and Henry are so threatened by gays with different opinions. Could it be because their opinions are based, not on intelligent and defensible considerations, but with conformity to what is “expected” ?
Or is it that, just like liberal bashing, it makes you feel manly and powerful without ever having to present useful information or ideas of how to make a difference in whatever the topic is at the moment.
LOL….which is why, when presented with examples of bad gay behavior, all gay and lesbian people like Henry can do is whine that “heterosexuals do it too”, and all that gay and lesbian people like Dave can do is scream “traitor, doing that is homophobic and is just like Peter LaBarbera”.
That’s not a solution, nor is it making a difference. It’s rationalizing the continued practice of the behavior, and it’s attacking the person pointing out the problem.
There are solutions offered at this site regularly. It’s just that, since they involve calling out destructive gay behaviors, criticizing irresponsible gay people, and condemning idiotic gay activity, instead of trying to blame heterosexuals or the “right wing”, they are anathema to you. Any solution that requires gay people to acknowledge they are wrong or change their behavior is not valid in your eyes.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — July 11, 2008 @ 11:52 pm - July 11, 2008
I just have to comment on this: if I had to pick the one Big Problem in the world today, this would be it: people who are just plain dumb and proud of it.
Comment by Robert — July 11, 2008 @ 11:53 pm - July 11, 2008
Good point NDT. You never see people like Dave or the other Borg call on their fellow gays to clean up their act.
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 12:07 am - July 12, 2008
Their response to dissent is to expel the person from their “community” and insist they should become “ex-gay”.
When did this occur, exactly?
This is why the “one gay community” idea is perfectly valid — because, as we’ve seen here, gays like Dave and Henry do their best to insure that any REAL diversity of thought or ideology is quashed under a hail of insults and namecalling
Umm, what insults/name calling did I do? And, need to remind you, I am the one questioning whether there are communities within the gay community, as opposed to one homogenized group whose every bad act is imputed to the whole. Which seems to be what you are suggesting.
Also, I have criticized the gay community. There are problems the gay community needs to address. My issue is when things that apply to society as a whole are put on the heads of gay, simply because they are gay.
And NDT, you’re one to talk about insults and quashing. You take one article, and use it to accuse the entire gay community as being stuck in adolescence. Then when someone dares suggest that, maybe, that one example is not imputable to the entire gay community, you accuse them of ‘whining’ that straights do it too.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 12:40 am - July 12, 2008
So, the heterosexual equivalent of Folsom Street Fair… wherein people engage in public sex and bondage on a city street in the presence of children with financial assistance from the city and widespread support among the community … is what?
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 12:59 am - July 12, 2008
I don’t know, how about Swingfest (Link NSFW). Or how about the Domintrix Convention? (Also NSFW).
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:15 am - July 12, 2008
Those appear to be held in private venues, not city streets. I also don’t see where children are invited, nor any indication of the support of the mainstream heterosexual community in either event. So, they really don’t quite reflect on heteronormative behavior much, do they?
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 1:22 am - July 12, 2008
As I said, Henry: It’s cute when you stamp your tiny little foot.
I’ll give you a bigger hint this time. I already answered the question earlier in the thread. (The parts that you apparently either can’t read, or at the very least, aren’t intelligent enough to understand and draw implications from.)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:26 am - July 12, 2008
SO, Folsom Street (which is not an exclusively gay event) is indicative of homo-normative behavior?
How About Madi Gras in New Orleans? Spring break in any of the major locations?
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:29 am - July 12, 2008
I’ll give you a bigger hint this time.
Are you incapable of stating an answer when asked directly? Or even stating which number comment you made is supposedly an answer to this question?
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:32 am - July 12, 2008
Heterosexuals get arrested if they have sex in public. For gays, it’s considered a civil right. People are routinely arrested at Mardi Gras for indecent exposure.
It’s also the case that if a middle-aged men leaves his family for a younger woman, he’s a cad and a sleaze. But if he leaves his family for another man… hurray! he’s finally being “true” to himself.
Moral Equivalence: FAIL!
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 1:34 am - July 12, 2008
It would be more accurate to say this: The idea that there is ONE gay community is a weapon of Gay Left activists / groups that they use to force all of us gays into their Folsom-street, and occasionally even America-hating, agenda.
Of course it isn’t, sweetums. And Clinton did not have sex with that woman. And Islam is a Religion of Peace. And “BUSH LIED!!!(tm)” And Obama will lower middle-class taxes. And he can no more disown Jeremiah Wright than he can disown his (really-not-)racist white grandmother.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:37 am - July 12, 2008
#49 - As I said, Henry: It is SOOO cute to watch you keep stamping and stamping your little foot! Just like you imagine the grownups would do!
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:38 am - July 12, 2008
And I don’t mind giving you this attention. I guess you need it.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:41 am - July 12, 2008
Explain that to Henry… He apparently believes that heterosexual people having sex behind closed doors justifies gays having sex in a public street.
I suggest using very short simple words when you explain it to him.
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 1:46 am - July 12, 2008
I guess you need it.
I do have to admire your ability to argue in circles. I asked how the materialistic / youth obsession was different than in the straight community.
You (#7) mentioned that the materialistic / youth obsession was only a community of straights like that.
I asked if there wasn’t a similar “community” aspect in gay community (#9), and you accused me of ‘obfuscation’ and goal-post moving (#11). Then you accused me of misquoting you because I used ellipisis, and said that straight and gay communities are “fairly” different (#14).
Then, after I re-asked, you essentially just kept saying how cute I am( 19 and 47) (and, for the record, I appreciate the compliments, but am in a Long Term Relationship, so sorry).
And none of those posts answered my question. You did make a somewhat more concrete (if snarky and incorrect) statement in your last post (#51).
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:55 am - July 12, 2008
Awwwwwwwwwww!
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:59 am - July 12, 2008
He apparently believes that heterosexual people having sex behind closed doors
Yea, and your only response to Madri Gras and Spring Break was a half-hearted “straights get arrested”, which is tacit acknowledgement that, indeed, there are large gathering of straight people who have sex in public.
Which doesn’t make it appropriate in either situation. It just means it occurs in both.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:59 am - July 12, 2008
Anyhow, as much as I love circular arguments and being called ’sweetie’, I must call it a night.
I’ll try not to do any gay apologizing until tomorrow.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 2:01 am - July 12, 2008
I know I don’t have to explain this to anybody except Henry, but, for the record: I’m not, and never would be, romantically attracted to six-year-olds. Or to people, like Henry, who choose to display the behavior and mentality of same.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 2:04 am - July 12, 2008
P.S. For the record: I briefly tried to find where anybody has called Henry “sweetie”, and was unable to find it. Let me know if you know.
(I did call Dave “sweetums”. I do hope Henry *isn’t* trying to confess, in a backhanded way, to consider himself and Dave to be one and the same person, like sockpuppets.)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 2:08 am - July 12, 2008
(Oh wait, I’ve broken the code. Cute little foot-stamping six year olds always think comments are about them.)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 2:14 am - July 12, 2008
When did this occur, exactly?
Quote:
I wonder - if some of you are so repulsed by what you think “gay” is then why not go the ex-gay route
Both you and Dave seem to have a problem realizing that gay persons would be repulsed by gay parents taking children dressed as sex slaves to a sex fair, which these gay parents claim is perfectly normal and constitutes an “educational experience”. Indeed, you obviously agree with those gay parents that anyone who opposes such behavior is “close-minded”, given how you’ve repeatedly spun and tried to justify their behavior.
Yea, and your only response to Madri Gras and Spring Break was a half-hearted “straights get arrested”, which is tacit acknowledgement that, indeed, there are large gathering of straight people who have sex in public.
Notice the difference.
When straights have public sex, they are arrested. Indeed, there are large contingents of heterosexuals who are repulsed by the behavior that goes on at Mardi Gras and at spring break, and in several cases have demanded that these events be shut down (and won).
But when gays have sex in public, the response from the gay community, as exemplified by Dave and Henry, is to argue that “straights do it, so we can too” and that anyone who points it out is “homophobic” or a “self-loathing traitor”.
Clearly, Mardi Gras and spring break are not heteronormative — but Folsom, Pride, and other events where gays have public sex in front of children dressed as sexual slaves are, given Henry and Dave’s utter refusal to condemn or criticize said behavior and to insist that those who are repulsed by it should get out of the gay community.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — July 12, 2008 @ 2:42 am - July 12, 2008
I don’t know if Henry is being deliberately obtuse, or if he honestly doesn’t see the difference. He’s either being dishonest or dumb, which is it? It’s like trying to argue with someone who insists an apple really is an orange .
And the worst he can say about what goes on at Folsom Street is not “appropriate.” No. Wearing biking shorts to a wedding is inappropriate. What goes on at Folsom Street is depraved and disgusting. And the point is not just that it goes on, but that it goes on in public, in the presence of children, and is celebrated as an intrinsic part of “gay culture.”
And Folsom Street Fair is not the only example of depravity that is accepted and encouraged by the gay community. In the UK, gays protest landscaping that would interfere with public sex.
I apologize to Dan that this discussion has gotten so far off-track, but maybe that’s a tribute to how spot-on his observation about narcissism, materialism, and neurosis really was.
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 7:41 am - July 12, 2008
Most of America, Thank God, is a long way from Folsom Street.
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 7:44 am - July 12, 2008
I know. Henry argues like a six-year-old. I’m responding accordingly. I’m sorry the thread has gotten so off-topic, but evidently the poor thing needs the attention.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 9:40 am - July 12, 2008
I stay clear of these sex/moral/marriage threads
Everyone has said what could possibly be said. It’s the same fight over and over and over.
Comment by Vince P — July 12, 2008 @ 10:04 am - July 12, 2008
ROFL. And at no time did I endorse the idea that Nixon beats his wife. I merely asked “Has he stopped beating his wife yet?”
I’ll try to spell this out in words of two syllables max, Henry, so that even you might get it. (I know it’ll be hard for you. Stay with me.) When you make a point B, that rests on point A or would only make sense if you also believed A, you endorse point A. It holds, even if you pretend you are “asking” point B as a “question”.
In this case, your making a point to the effect of ’straight people are the same’ or ’straight people do it too’ presumes that gay people do (or are) ‘it’ to begin with. I know you want to deny having presumed that. I know you want us to pretend along with you that you haven’t. Sorry I’m bad at your games of Pretend.
See? Words no more than 2 syllables (except ’syllable’ itself).
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 12:00 pm - July 12, 2008
Okay, I figured out where you stand. If there is something offensive and explicitly sexual that is gay related, then all gays are guilty and it is homo-normative.
If there is something offensive and explicitly sexual that is straight related, well then that is only a ‘community’ within the straight community, and thus not hetero-normative.
Got it.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 12:02 pm - July 12, 2008
Nope. But I won’t ask you to try again. (I don’t believe in over-stimulating six year olds; they get cranky.)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 12:17 pm - July 12, 2008
When you make a point B, that rests on point A or would only make sense if you also believed A, you endorse point A. It holds, even if you pretend you are “asking” point B as a “question”.
You really have no shame, do you? If you go back to the post that was made in, you will see that I was responding to your allegation that I had “misquoted” you because I used ellipisis to cut down parts of the quote that I was responding to. Here’s the ‘full’ quote which you edited, and I might add, without the benefit of ellipsis:
If we’re going to get nit picky, perhaps I would point out that at no time did I “[endorse] the ideas that the gay community is materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping,” I merely asked “How is that different than straight people?”.
You were berating me, because I didn’t fully quote you, and then turned around and used an interpretation of a statement I made.
And spare me the logic lesson. The primary quote which was in the main post was a sweeping generalization of the gay community, and I posed a response on that level. Then you interjected communities within a larger community as a rebuttal to my sweeping statement.
Conversations not being static, that changed the focus of the conversation. I suppose in my first post, I should have said this:
“Well, really, all large collections of people are hardly homogeneous in their beliefs and attitudes. As such, that observation is not attributable to any community as a whole, but rather it is applicable to merely a subset of that community. Likewise, there is a subcommunity of straight culture that has the same beliefs.”
Instead, I said “this is different from straight people how?” as a short and (somewhat sarcastic) way of saying that the behavior wasn’t different than how things are in the straight community. You have read that as ‘Henry agrees that all gays are materialistic, and youth obsessed’ (and one would assume you must think I also believe that is true of all straights as well), when anyone not being purposefully obtuse would recognize that this was a whole hearted endrosement that all gays or all straights act in strict conformity with one another.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 12:25 pm - July 12, 2008
Awwwwwwwwwww! How cute, with the foot-stamping again!
Which would be, post #5. THAT is where you endorsed the idea that the gay community is materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping, by asking, “How is that different than straight people?”
And was #5 written in response to anything I said? Let those who can read, read.
Awwww. I suspected I might be over-taxing or over-stimulating the 6 year old. Sorry.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 12:32 pm - July 12, 2008
No. Post 5 was where I responded to the main post by GWP.
Post 7 you posted: Disagree. There is a “community” of straights who are like that, but many more of them just get married and get on with their lives. Oh, I forgot, gay people are supposed to pretend they don’t exist.
Post 9 I responded to you, and asked if there weren’t ‘communities’ within the gay community.
Post 11, you stated
At Post 12, I responded by quoting the above as “Henry endorses the ideas that the gay community is materialistic…by #9 Henry has shifted to different arguments”
Which, at post 14 you stated was more goal posting I was “strategically mis-quote[ing]” you, because I cut off the “At #5” at the beginning.
That’s the thing about 6 year olds. We remember everything. Even when stomping our feet.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 12:41 pm - July 12, 2008
Awwwwwwwwwwwww!
I know you don’t want to address what I actually said in #67 and #71, Henry - which comments go to your #5, that’s f-i-v-e, one, two, three, four, f…i…v…e… - But here is some more attention for you, anyway. Keep coming back!
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 12:49 pm - July 12, 2008
Vince P, I think it stopped being about mores a while back, and since then it’s been about kicking around a dim-but-pompous troll.
Comment by V the K — July 12, 2008 @ 12:50 pm - July 12, 2008
yeah, V.
Now for grins, let’s recap. Beneath all the smoke and blather, Henry has claimed:
Except that he did. At #5, where he endorsed the idea implicitly by asking
Even if he now wants to pretend otherwise.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 12:58 pm - July 12, 2008
P.S. To be clear: Changing your mind is allowed by the rules of logic and fair argument. Or saying “I misspoke, and my true view is… “, which Henry starts to get into that at #70.
But those two claims are different than Henry’s “At no time did I say…” claim, which is visibly false, yet which he has defended with clouds of obfuscation and side attacks.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:11 pm - July 12, 2008
And you continue to mischaracterize that.
You wrote a post accusing me of mis-quoting you, because I left off the post number at the start of a quote. Essentially, because I edited “At #5” from the beginning of your comment, you accused me of trying to be deceptive.
I replied that was foolish, and as an example of how I could be that foolish too, I said “If we’re going to get nit picky, perhaps I would point out that at no time did I “[endorse] the ideas that the gay community is materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping,” I merely asked “How is that different than straight people?”
See. An example of how I could be foolish, like you?
And I did respond to your posts in 67 and 71.
See, you’re not actually interested in whether or not what I have to say has any merit at all, so you’re bending over backward to mischaracterize, and then dismiss it. Only someone with no ability to reason would honestly think that “and this is different from straight people how” was intended to be a nuanced position statement of how I feel about the entire gay community. Yet, you continue to insist that by making that statement, then discussing ‘communities’ within the gay population, that I am somehow changing the ‘goalposts’.
From that thinking, the reader who GWP initially posted must, himself, think that he is self-obsessed and material, because he said that the entire gay community is so, and he is gay. Ergo, by your limited ability to reason, he must have been making a statement about all the gays in the world. Period.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:18 pm - July 12, 2008
Furthermore, what has blown a hole in Henry’s argument is that his claim that Mardi Gras and spring break are heteronormative is belied by the fact that straight people roundly criticize, demand bans on, and have succeeded in having people arrested and criminally prosecuted for what goes on at these events.
In contrast, as the example from the UK shows, gay and lesbian liberals like Henry, rather than supporting bans and prosecution of public sex, scream that enforcing laws against public sex is “homophobic”. Furthermore, Dave and Henry both insist that anyone who criticizes or condemns irresponsible gay behavior is not really gay and should become “ex-gay” — thus making it clear that the gay community has only ONE viewpoint and ONE belief, and that anyone who deviates from that is not really gay.
Really, what this entails is a distorted funhouse view of heterosexuals that is based on Henry’s desperate need to rationalize gay behavior. Since he cannot condemn or criticize his fellow gays for taking children dressed as sexual slaves to Folsom, he insists that all heterosexuals do it and that makes it normal. Since he cannot condemn gay promiscuity, he insists that all heterosexuals are promiscuous.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — July 12, 2008 @ 1:23 pm - July 12, 2008
Aww, the 6 year old is stamping his foot again!
I mean, it’s worked well so far… well, not in getting him respect, but in getting the poor thing attention…
And yes Henry, your tactics throughout this thread, in dealing with everyone here (not just me), have been obfuscating / deceptive. But I know you can’t understand nor agree.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:34 pm - July 12, 2008
I mean, it’s worked well so far… well, not in getting him respect, but in getting the poor thing attention…
See. Not a response, but a personal attack.
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:42 pm - July 12, 2008
Henry both insist that anyone who criticizes or condemns irresponsible gay behavior is not really gay and should become “ex-gay”
And again, when did I say that?
Comment by Henry — July 12, 2008 @ 1:47 pm - July 12, 2008
“LOL….and notice how Dave, while blabbing about the “diversity” in the gay community, makes it clear that people who disagree with him or who dare to criticize other gay people are not really gay, are self-loathing traitors, and should go to ex-gay therapy”
LOL, and notice how Dave never said any such thing. You aren’t disagreeing with me or criticizing other gay people you are judging all of us based on the actions and attitudes of some. If you are a gay person and you do that you are indeed self-loathing and need some kind of therapy.
“LOL….which is why, when presented with examples of bad gay behavior, all gay and lesbian people like Henry can do is whine that “heterosexuals do it too”, and all that gay and lesbian people like Dave can do is scream “traitor, doing that is homophobic and is just like Peter LaBarbera”.”
LOL…Which is why when ND30 has no clue what was really said he makes something up.
“since they involve calling out destructive gay behaviors, criticizing irresponsible gay people, and condemning idiotic gay activity”
But, that’s not what you do. You have over and over implied that Folsom Street and like activities are the NORM for the gay communities. That is condemning ALL of us. That is offering nothing more than the stench of hate that pours from some on the right. I have NEVER read a word from you indicating that you saw anything good in the gay communities so you cannot possibly offer any solutions only bullshit piled on bullshit and as such you are a major part of the problem.
V the K, you have no clue if I have ever called on “fellow gays to clean up their act”. There are certainly attitudes and behaviors that are unhealthy and anti-social and need to be addressed but when one or two on here instantly drag the discussion to a level of snickering and misrepresenting not only what other people say but the gay community as a whole WTF would be the point of trying and intelligent discussion.
I said LaBarbera would feel at home here, actually I was wrong, he is a step above some on here, he doesn’t condemn his own.
Comment by Dave — July 12, 2008 @ 1:53 pm - July 12, 2008
Not quite. I wrote a post pointing out how your ellipsis had *changed the meaning* of what I said. What I said was directed at your comment #5. You pretended otherwise (i.e., that my intention and meaning were something else).
Ellipsis is fine when it doesn’t change meaning. Ellipsis is bad, when it changes meaning.
I can’t believe I have to explain that to you. I don’t have to explain it to anyone else here. But, most of them have matured beyond the six year old stage of obstinate deception and distraction tactics.
With more of your obfuscation and side attacks. Whoopee. Score!
Aww, poor baby!
Henry, I’ll give you some free advice. If you think, talk and argue like a grownup, then people might be interested in what you have to say and respond to you as a grownup. Try it sometime.
Fortunately, that is not what I thought nor said.
Rather, I pointed out how your words - whether you intended them or not; whether you have any more than a six year old’s control of what comes out of your mouth, or not - did actually endorse the idea that the gay community is materialistic, empty and youth-worshipping.
Again: WHETHER OR NOT THAT WAS THE MEANING you had intended. Take a little responsibility for the words coming out of your mouth, Henry. If you can’t express yourself intelligently or speak words consistent with your own beliefs, well, that is your problem.
Indeed you are. LOL. As I said at #76:
Which you touched on briefly at #70, but all the rest has been a six-year-old’s notion of obfuscation and deception: assuming that others won’t notice the crudeness of your tactics, that they can’t read the thread, etc.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 1:59 pm - July 12, 2008
Nope. A statement of fact. And I do really hope you love all this attention, Henry. You do really seem to need it.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — July 12, 2008 @ 2:01 pm - July 12, 2008
You know Dave, you would be more credible if you weren’t part of the loony, left, child-slave approving, youth obsessed gays from the liberal enclaves.
Or something like that.
Comm