Just a few moments ago, I had a conversation with a close friend of my Dad, the kind of conversation I kind of hoped this blog — and all such political discourse — might inspire.
Like me, my Dad has a lot of Democratic friends–though he may well have more Republican friends than I.  Over the years, this particular friend has become close to our family, so much so that he’s like an uncle to my siblings and myself.  And when I consider someone avuncular, I mean that as high praise, given the importance I attach to that role in my life.
Anyway, he stopped by the house and we talked about politics. Â Knowing my partisan leanings, he asked me what I thought about McCain. Â I told him that while Rudy had been my man at the outset of the campaign, I thought our party’s presumptive nominee has turned out to be a better candidate than I had expected and acknowledge he is doing much better as the GOP’s standard bearer than the former New York Mayor would have done.
When Harry criticized Bush, he did not insult the man’s character or intelligence, but claimed he had been poorly served by his advisors. Â In this regard, I was harsher on the Republican president than he, saying he had a tendency to hire cronies for certain important posts (naming former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales as an example) and faulting him for not removing Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary until right after his reelection.
While offering a harsher assessment of the former Defense Secretary than I, Harry agreed that while he was a decent man, but was misguided on our national security needs. Â And I wondered, why do other Democrats have to demonize the man?
I asked him if her were supporting Obama even though the presumptive Democratic nominee had surrounded himself with foreign policy advisors who were overly critical of Israel. Â He said he had talked to some prominent Jewish Democrats close to the campaign who had said their man was solid on Israel.
While we had a difference of views on Bush’s record and the presidential contest, we didn’t resort to insult or innuendo (about each other or our respective party’s leaders) to make our points. Â Perhaps, our civil exchange so struck me because just moments before Harry passed by, I had read this in a post which neoneocon highlighted on her blog:
So it came as a true shock to me when I began to “come outâ€â€”which to the best of my recollection happened in the summer of 2004, around the time the Presidential campaign was heating up—-and discovered the magnitude of the anger in the reactions I got.
While all too many react in anger when learning their friends are Republicans or support Republican candidates and ideas from time to time, this man seemed legitimately interested in my views (and those of my Republican brothers and nephews) even as he disagreed with them.
And I hope he was similarly impressed with my interest in his views.
*not his real name.
Wishful thinking.
I have no doubt that Obama has prominent Jewish Democrats close to his campaign. But liberal American Jews have a large capacity for wishful thinking about Democratic candidates. With a few exceptions like Ed Koch and Joe Lieberman, they mostly hate George W. Bush, who has been mostly solid on Israel. Meanwhile, they mostly love Carter and Clinton, both of whom mostly stab Israel in the back (especially nowadays). And Obama can’t be considered ‘solid’ on anything… except his willingness to associate with destructive anti-American and anti-Israel radicals; you could even say, his *hope* that they’ll approve of him and think he’s cool. Witness Obama’s massive, gaffe-level flip-flopping on the status of Jerusalem.
I believe there is a significant chance – let me say, 30-50% – that an Obama presidency will end in the destruction of Israel.
Rumsfeld is underrated, or slagged unfairly IMHO. The success of the surge was due more to improvements in tactics, counterinsurgency doctrine and leadership than to troop numbers. And Rumsfeld was a tireless champion of all three of those, throughout his six-year tenure. And read Douglas Feith’s book: it was the State Department, not Defense / Rumsfeld, who screwed up the postwar planning and generated the nationalist – Baathist – Islamist insurgency in Iraq. Defense / Rumsfeld wanted “no occupation”, i.e., immediate turnover to a native Iraqi government as we’ve done in other countries. State appointed Bremer and insisted on a formal, extended period of occupation.
Gee, Bu$h was just railroaded by his cabinet. Aww, shucks. Well, I guess that makes all the difference in the world. Just shows what happens when you stick a brainless puppet like Bu$h in the White House.
BTW; Did you tell Harry you thought he was a Fascist Commie Nazi? Did you tell him about how you demonize Democrats? Just wondering how he likes being thought of as a Fascistic Member of the Evil Democratic Party.
Wow! I just can’t agree with you there. We couldn’t have made a worse choice than F.U. McCain.
Pinky, your comment shows you would rather define us as you want to see us rather than see us we are. Unlike “Harry,” you’re not interested in a conversation, not interested in understanding our views, but in insulting us.
I don’t think of this good man is that kind of horrible person. Indeed, if you had bothered to read the post, you would know how I regard him, even as I’m aware his political leanings differ from my own.
Amazing how you can’t even read the posts to which you attach your comments in your zeal to define us as something other than we are.
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Good summing-up. And that, by the way, is a mark of those who are indeed “Fascist Commie Nazi” at heart: They can hardly be bothered to read, much less to think or answer thoughtfully.
(typo, “They *can* hardly be bothered”…)
[Fixed it for you. –Dan :-)]
Dan, I’m glad for you for being able to have an intelligent conversation with someone left of center.
As regards ‘Good Riddance,’ I wonder why none of his fellow lefties ever call him out on his obnoxious behavior. Anyone who acted that way on a right-wing blog would get called out for it by his fellow wingnuts. I have seen this happen. People would at a minimum say, “That’s not cool, man.” But Good Riddance’s fellow lefties give him a pass.
I’d be interested to know why that is. Is that because his behavior is considered normal on your side of the divide? Or do you just give him a pass because it’s okay to be obnoxious to right-wingers?
Just exactly what did you “conserve” with Harry?
Are you turning “Green”? 😉
I’ll bite, V the K. First of all, I agree with you regarding Pinky Bear’s behavior. It’s very troll-like, and I usually disregard that, no matter which side it comes from. About a year ago, give or take, there was a flurry of name calling and obnoxiousness going back and forth on both sides. In fact, I did call out one of the liberal posters. I believe it was GP who asked everyone to knock it off, and in my recollection, basically asked everyone to stop being referee, and that he would handle bad behavior by posters. So, at that point, I decided to stop calling people out, unless I was defending myself, or in cases in which I thought a poster (non-troll) stepped way over the line with another poster (In fact, I did that about a month ago or so, and I did that with the understanding that I could be banned by doing so.)
I know the “the other side does it too” argument doesn’t excuse bad behavior, but I believe it’s fair to put things in perspective. I’ve seen unwarranted obnoxious behavior by conservative posters against liberal posters, without the minimum “that’s not cool, man.” Recently, I even saw obnoxious behavior of a conservative poster against another conservative poster (who took the “liberal” side on one position). But again, unless the poster is a troll, or it’s not way over the line, I stay out of it.
Dan, I’m glad that you are able to have constructive conversations with someone who often disagrees with you politically, and on topics in which you two disagree, like you did with Harry. You can learn something even if neither of you changes each others’ minds.
I’m curious though. You had mentioned in another thread that you knew David Shipley, the Op-Ed editor of the NY Times. Were you able to talk to him about the decision to not print McCain’s column?
#8 – #9 – My view is close to Pat’s. The GP rules say us guests are not supposed to play referee. I will tell the person what I think of their poor comment/behavior anyway, if (1) it involves an attack on me, or (2) if it involves undeserved (IMO) attacks on fellow commentors *whom I have learned to respect*. The latter comes close to playing referree and so puts me on thin ice. But, so be it. There was a case last month where I sided with NDT against someone’s unfair personal insults, even though I was with the other guy on the merits of the issue, because of my huge respect for NDT. On the other hand, if someone attacks or insults a fellow commentor whom I *don’t* respect, I often keep silence. These would be cases where the ‘victim’ was acting like a troll, and should turn to other friends than I.
Great post. Kind, genuine and likable people remain true to their character even when politics are discussed. The knee-jerk name calling most often comes from people who would honk at an old lady for taking too long to cross the street. An older, local friend of mine was, in the recent past, a high-ranking Democrat, intimately involved in campaigns for thirty years. He has never voted Republican in his life. He knows I am Republican, but he has never rediculed me for my politics — nor have I ridiculed him for his. One’s opinion on the role of government is less important to his or her character than fundamental elements such as honesty and a sense of humor.
Trevor, thanks for catching that. Since fixed.
I just wonder at the Dichotomy of you guys. You walk a fine line and are sloppy. Your blog has long since set the tone of discourse. You complain about being treated like the average Republican Neo-Con Fascist that you all are and then dish out your praises when you can to people you know who have no idea what your discourse is like. You guys call Obama and every other democrat every name conceivable. Hypocrisy, thy name is Neo-Con.
Pinky Bear, I already showed how you based your comment not on the actual facts I related in this post, but your own prejudice.
Now, after falsely claiming I think this family friend is a “Fascist Commie Nazi,” you keep hurling the insults, calling us fascists. Wann provide some examples to back up your screed?
You think we have no idea what discourse is?!?!? Wanna enlighten us what it is? Or should I just point out all your comments which don’t even address the points I raise in my post. Or which use the comments to a post on movies (with no hint of politics in the post) to rant on against Bush.
WOW!
#15 – I’ve always said that if you don’t like the place, then leave.
Don’t let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you.
Regards,
Peter H.
Totalitarianism == worship of government power. Expanding the State’s hold on the Individual is always the answer, and indeed, is imperative because the individual is believed/claimed to have no sovereignty, and no worth except as a cog in the great collective.
Fascism == variation where the means of production are *nominally* left in private hands.
Communism == variation where the means of production are explicitly in government hands.
Both are movements / creations of the Left.
Totalitarianism is: worship of government power. Expanding the State’s hold on the Individual is always the answer, and indeed, is imperative because the individual is believed/claimed to have no sovereignty, and no worth except as a cog in the great collective.
Fascism is: the variation where the means of production are *nominally* left in private hands.
Communism is: the variation where the means of production are explicitly in government hands.
Both are movements / creations of the Left.
Totalitarianism is: worship of government power. Expanding the State’s hold on the Individual is always the answer, and indeed, is imperative because (1) individual sovereignty is a threat to the State, and (2) the individual is believed/claimed to have no worth except as a cog in the great collective.
Last time I checked, Obama was not one of the people commenting on this blog and trying to be part of its community. Politicians / public figures are always fair game. The names I’ve called Obama include “stupid”, “arrogant”, “the Messiah” (/sarc) and “gaffe-o-matic”… all truthful.
I can’t seem to get anything through the comment filter right now. I’ve been trying experiements & variations to see if there is a pattern. Can’t find one.
Oh well, one last try. The thought just struck me… Perhaps Pinky still feels humiliated from having his face rubbed, the other day, in the fact that the infamous Fred Phelps is a Democrat.
I am willing to have civil conversation with rational liberals, but honestly, I don’t encounter many of them.
But I disagree about Rudy. I think Rudy would be doing a great deal better than McCain. I think the base would be a lot more willing to get behind him, yet he still has large crossover appeal. PLUS he has the added benefit of not supporting all the moronic big-government, liberty-killing, liberal oh, excuse me… “maverick” crap McCain does.
#15:
Way to go! You have used a $5.00 word in a way they defies all possible meaning.
You think? Like “Gay Patriot” would be a liberal homophobe site?
Please send this out for translation. Perhaps one should be offended at being labeled “average” or “fascist” or “neo-con” or “average fascist” or “average neo-con” or “fascist neo-con” or “average Republican” or …… zzzzz!
HUH? When you translate the above, could you possibly expand on this conglomeration of predicates in search of a subject?
Wrong: There are many laudatory and honorable names that are conceivable, but not called.
Am I wounded? Have I been hit? Am I bleeding? Did someone just crush me and I missed it?
Here’s to the average Republican fascist neo-con hypocrite on this site who know people who have no idea of what your discourse is like. Or something to that effect.
What the hell is a Neo-con?
Personally, I think we’re all above-average Neocon fascists.
Wait, if we’re the Fascists, how come it’s the lefties who have come up with a Fascist salute to hail their leader?
And how come the left is targeting people who donate to conservative causes for intimidation and harassment? Isn’t that a Fascist tactic?
#22 – V, isn’t it ironic that the fascist salute the Obamaniacs are using to salute their Dear Leader is also the American Sign Language equivalent of the word “asshole?”
If the shoe fits…
Regards,
Peter H.
If you visit PB’s offered blog-link and get a sense what his life is like (or what he chooses to present of it), well, yes some issues may be there. One sample:
Murder… a topic not only for alleged “humor”, but for wishing upon people who create minor annoyances. I’ll leave it at that.
#23 – Peter, the thing is so messed up and absurd on so many levels, it has got to be a joke…?
#25 – I wish, Rob. But apparently it’s true.
And re Good Riddance’s blog on #24 – it’s obvious that he’s certifiable. Someone call the Bug House and reserve a rubber room for him.
Regards,
Peter H.
Ace has a good ‘shopped answer to the Obama symbol:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/270244.php
And this:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/270242.php
Oh, wait. That one isn’t ‘shopped. That’s the original. I just now read it instinctively as “Obama – ZERO Sign of Progress”!
What a disgusting little bigot. For one thing, I have never been a liberal, am not socially libertarian nor do I have atheistic views on moral issues. Therefore, you can’t call me a “Neo-Con”. Well, unless you want to be considered a lying POS and we already know the answer to that.
BTW, “civil” or no, I will be honest and tell you that you’re a sonofabitch, Pinko. Won’t lie.
As far as Obamaganda images go, try this.
Or this.
Or even this
This is a very nice story. I wish I could have those types of conversation with Liberals sometimes, face to face, without “pooping” on each other. I live in NYC and being the way I am, my “neighbors” are generally not interested in discussion. I come out to them and they hiss. Hahaha
Really most of them do. I do enjoy discussing opposite points of view, frankly, I LOVE IT!! Really, I do. My cousin who moved away was the only “Liberal” whom I could easily speak with. We hardly agreed on anything but we listened to one another and respected each other, I miss those conversations. 🙁
I’m sure real “tolerant” Liberals live in the city, it just has been long time since I spoke to one.