Vivian what I say is not ignorant Christian bashing. And in fact it’s not Christian bashing at all. It is informed, educated comment on a certain faction of Christianity that has warped it into a force that stands for domination and “reconstruction”. Christianity is not about taking over a countries government and attempting to subjugate the rest of the people in a theocratic swamp. Christianity is not about wrapping the cross in an American flag and expecting all to bow to it. Christianity is not about government at all, and I agree it’s not about conformity of our lives to each other. BUT, if you bothered to pay attention to some of the groups that function under the label of “evangelical” you would see that what I say is true. Yeah, it’s off base, but it doesn’t make it less of a reality. The reason it offends me and the reason I speak out so much about it is that I KNOW it’s not what Christianity should be and I EXPECT anyone who claims to be a Christian to act far better towards their fellow humans than what I see coming out of the right (and I’m not claiming the left is perfect by any means). And if you paid attention you would know that MANY evangelical preachers say “God Damn America”, they just use more flowery pseudo-theological terms to say it. The United States is condemned far more on any given Sunday by preachers on the right than it is on the left. So anyway, thanks for the suggestion, I’ve read it. C.S Lewis has much good to say, too bad so few listen, especially those who shout the loudest about being Christian. How do I know what I say is true – over a decade in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles, reading daily what flows from the major “evangelical” voices and monitoring of the more extreme group’s actions.

You mentioned Kennedy – if he actually practiced his religion as is now being DEMANDED by the Vatican I would be just as concerned about voting for him. A person whose religious LEADERS (as opposed to documents of the religion itself) define what they can and cannot believe and how they should vote does not belong in any position of power in a free country.

Please stop with the ignorant Christian-bashing. Which Christians think that their own will is God’s will? You’ve got it completely backwards. Christians are supposed to experience true freedom by following God’s will as laid out in scripture. My OWN will is what gets me into trouble over and over again.
And who do you think is deciding which people are saved? It certainly isn’t going to be Christians. The idea is that God makes this decision, not Christian people! And who is it who said “saved” people are all supposed to act the same—that is the opposite of Christian thinking. I hope you’ll do yourself a favor and read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. He does a great job of explaining how it is that true Christians should be much more individually unique, because they have more freedom to realize being the people they were created to be. You need to get behind the smoke and mirrors so you can tell the difference between what the faith is, and what fallible human beings may project.

Re: Sarah Palin–I find it outrageous the degree to which her faith has been scrutinized. What other presidential candidate’s faith ever came under such ridiculous questioning? And why is it so acceptable to be so intolerant of protestant Christians? And if her church’s views are so unacceptable, what about Biden’s? Oh, wait, we know he doesn’t take them any more seriously than Ted Kennedy takes his RC faith. It’s okay to be a hypocrite after all, I guess. To put the shoe on the other foot, how then do you scrutinize a candidate who is an atheist? Is there some creed to which atheists subscribe which would tell you what the candidate’s values are? And of course, it doesn’t matter that our leading candidate sits in a church where the pastor harangues him with “God damn America”. It’s scary to think this is a sentiment which apparently bothers so few Americans.

I agree leaving the church showed no integrity on Obama’s part. He should have stayed.

You’re right, she hasn’t campaigned with an “ex-gay” advocate, but she cozied up to Dobson without hesitation and he makes McClurkin look like our strongest ally. McClurkin speaks from his own experience, Dobson from the sewer that is his heart.

I don’t think Obama is all that good and there are indeed serious concerns

Then why the ruckus?

Until Sarah Palin has proven to me beyond a doubt…

Which, of course, she never will. I mean – What could be sufficient evidence for you? Should she get an abortion? Become a Democrat? Because she left the AOG several years ago. That’s not enough for you, eh?

I’m sure someone will throw out Wright as an argument against Obama, it’s no match.

Indeed, it’s no match. But not how you mean. Obama sat in the pews and imbibed Wright’s raving hate for 20 years, only leaving *this year* when Wright became a political liability. No integrity in that. It’s one part of what I mean by, “a candidate who has basically been lying to people about his true positions”. (There are other areas/reasons.)

- a candidate with NO accomplishments as a reformer
- even less ready for national office than Palin
- a candidate who has basically been lying to people about his true positions on the issues.

If you don’t feel that way, you should pony up some specific – and logically valid – reasons to think differently.

Just to take my first point alone: What major reform in America has been authored by Obama? (Note: Don’t you dare cite some bill that he co-sponsored in a meaningless way with 30 other senators, or some letter he wrote that accomplished nothing.)

Also, they immediately came at me, how as a Jew could I support McCain/Palin, Obama is a much better friend of Israels! I was dumbfounded, here I was ready to talk about my hatred of socialism – and they throw this absolute non truth at me – and then immediately shut down the conversation.

I don’t see that anywhere in GPW’s article [that the person would vote Obama]

Dave, of course, but I was taking an educated guess. I went with the statistically-probable. Deal with it.

could it be that you just couldn’t miss an opportunity to slam Obama again

Dave, I was just pointing out the irony. – BUT, now that you mention it, Obama is, in fact, a sufficiently dangerous mix of vapid immaturity and Marxism that, no, he can’t be slammed often enough. Deal with it.

btw, ILC, having a discussion doesn’t mean that you are determined to change minds. I’d rather that said person listen respectfully and keep his own opinions, than every discussion become a preaching session.