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Gay People Behaving Badly

Thursday night, a friend and I went to dinner in Beverly Hills where we had a most civil discussion with our Obama-supporting waitress.  It was nice to talk politics with such civility.  And she agreed with my assessment of biased media coverage of Sarah Palin.

Soon after this pleasant exchange, however, we witnessed its opposite, some rather intemperate activists upset with the outcome of the voting on Proposition 8.  More sore losers.  We had to wait as police held traffic to allow a protest parade heading west likely toward toward the Mormons’ Los Angeles California Church on Santa Monica Boulevard in Westwood.

One protestor’s sign read, “Vile Mormons.”  They were protesting, as activists had earlier in the day, the part he Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints played in passing the proposition as had an angry crowd earlier in the day.

Yeah, such name-calling is a great way to convince others we’re ready to assume the responsibilities of marriage.

This is not the only time gay activists have badmouthed Mormons.  At the “No on 8″ Election Night party:

Los Angeles City Councilman Bill Rosendahl said, “We’re not going to let a perversion of Christianity stop us.” He is referring to the major fund-raising roles played by the Mormon and Catholic churches, which donated tens of millions of dollars to the “Yes on 8” campaign.

If Mormons held a parade with signs proclaiming, “Vile Homosexuals,” we’d call it hate speech.

The language and tone of those protesting Prop 8′s passage mimics that of e-mails I received and diatribes I heard during the campaign against the proposition. It’s why i wavered before casting my vote against Prop 8.

I still believe I made the right choice in voting aginast that initiative. It’s just that I’d rather not be associated with some of the others who voted the same way.

UPDATE: My law school Federalist Society colleague Todd Zywicki agrees, “So let me get this right–those who are upset about the passage of Proposition 8 in California have decided that the thing to do is to pick on the Mormons? So one marginalized group decides that the way to go is to vent their outrage against another marginalized group in society? Unbelieveable.

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77 Comments

  1. Funny, I guess having marriage rights taken away by the tyranny of the majority has that effect on some people.

    Comment by Attmay — November 7, 2008 @ 1:43 am - November 7, 2008

  2. Believe me, I get the anger. But, you don’t gain respect by insulting your adversaries.

    Comment by GayPatriotWest — November 7, 2008 @ 1:56 am - November 7, 2008

  3. That seems to be the case. But they are still our adversaries, and sometimes I wonder if you realize that. I would have held a sign that says:

    “My Marriage Is Not Subject To Your Vote” (if I had one).

    or:

    “The Osmond Brothers Were A Low-Rent Version of The Jackson 5.”

    I see nothing wrong with protesting the churches that contributed to the passage of this travesty.

    But I doubt people would change their vote from No to Yes because of the Mormon-bashing.

    Comment by Attmay — November 7, 2008 @ 2:05 am - November 7, 2008

  4. Go read my wavering post linked above, Attmay. I wavered because of such rhetoric.

    I agree that there is nothing wrong with protesting, provided it be done civilly without insults. Your first proposed sign seems to strike the right tone.

    Comment by GayPatriotWest — November 7, 2008 @ 2:08 am - November 7, 2008

  5. Well, considering I have just been insulted for some (admittedly excessive) attacks on heterosexuals, who do post here regularly, and some of whom even voted against the amendment.

    Ever since I realized I was gay, I have been resentful of heterosexuals. They seem to get everything handed to them. Gays have to fight for their rights and they seem to be shirking the cause; witness the 50% turnout in San Francisco, of all places.

    I would never vote against my own interests, even to spite people I disliked who happen to share them. I’m know you voted No on 8; remember I defended you against the first poster in the comments section of that article. I am also wary of abusing the judicial system. However, I don’t think the court overstepped their bounds in their decision.

    And I don’t agree that the state has no right to decide who can and cannot marry, which is a bad argument for gay marriage. I just happen to think they are wrong to exclude homosexual couples.

    And the rhetoric that crudely simplifies the struggle for marriage rights to “government recognition of sexual desire” is over the line, as far as I’m concerned.

    And as much as I have attacked heterosexuals (and I apologize to any reading that I have offended), I will not let gays off the hook for reckless and irresponsible behavior that embarrassed me even after I came out. If I were heterosexual and all gays were like that I’d probably be homophobic too. But you can’t really judge a whole group by a small element of that group, which is a strident and embarrassing minority within a minority.

    How bad does it have to be before you call a spade a spade?

    Comment by Attmay — November 7, 2008 @ 2:47 am - November 7, 2008

  6. And I don’t believe for a second that the situation is anywhere near as bad as 50 years ago. I also acknowledge the differences between the present and the former legal status of blacks under Jim Crow. There are no gay drinking fountains and no gay sections of restaurants and movie theaters. But we still cannot serve openly in the military and we cannot legally marry each other. These are the final steps in the path towards gay rights in the United States of America.

    Comment by Attmay — November 7, 2008 @ 3:02 am - November 7, 2008

  7. Poor gay patriot got his dinner ruined because some faggots did not want to shut up and put up with bigotry. How very sad for you. I blame people like you, more so than the other groups who wanted to hurt us. Because you think you are so above it all. What exactly makes you think that? I read your blog and you make all kinds of excuses for Bush, Cheney and the relgious right. Why can you not give gays the same respect and benefit of the doubt? Because they call you names and say you are self hating? That speaks more to your character than those who are being oppressed.

    Comment by Dave — November 7, 2008 @ 3:22 am - November 7, 2008

  8. Gay people behaving badly?

    Please.

    The strongest card in the deck for the No on 8 campaign was the widespread prejudice against the Mormon Church. And they didn’t play it.

    If I had been running the No on 8 campaign, I would’ve framed the debate in a way that would have made it primarily about the sordid history of the Mormon church, not the amendment itself.

    Would it have been really dirty? Absolutely. LOL. But it also probably would’ve sent the amendment down to defeat. Most people have anti-Mormon prejudices.

    You can’t always take the high road in politics. They should’ve played dirty.

    Comment by Erik — November 7, 2008 @ 3:45 am - November 7, 2008

  9. I mean, seriously.

    It’s not like Mormons are the belle of the ball themselves. Has anyone here ever read the Book of Mormon? To believe it’s the word of God, you must believe God writes in repetitive, run-on sentences and doesn’t know proper grammar! To say nothing of it’s actual content, it is a literary mess. But that’s because Joseph Smith was nothing but a charlatan. How anyone can read the Book of Mormon and not come to that conclusion… Well, it defies explanation.

    But something like 60% of Americans openly say they wouldn’t vote for a Mormon President. Anti-Mormon prejudice is more rampant than anti-gay prejudice. The “No on 8″ folks were fools to not fight fire with fire.

    Comment by Erik — November 7, 2008 @ 4:15 am - November 7, 2008

  10. Civil unions can provide the rights that gays seek. The Prop 8 defeat is not a dismisal of equal rights.

    Comment by Now It Matters — November 7, 2008 @ 4:41 am - November 7, 2008

  11. #9: Didn’t you see that ad with the Mormon missionaries taking away the lesbians’ wedding rings and ripping up their marriage contract? Was that not appealing to anti-Mormon prejudice? Personally, I enjoyed the ad, but it was strategically ineffective at best and disastrous at worst.

    Comment by Attmay — November 7, 2008 @ 4:44 am - November 7, 2008

  12. If you break down the demographics of who overwhelmingly voted against Prop 8, it was blacks and Latinos- ironically 2 ultra Democratic groups who leaned heavily toward Obama. Considering that California has a hell of a lot more blacks and Latinos, one has to ask themselves why those protesters insist on ignoring that fact yet focus all their ire toward Mormons.

    Comment by Right Turn — November 7, 2008 @ 5:06 am - November 7, 2008

  13. [Attmay]
    Ever since I realized I was left handed I have been resentful of right handed people. They seem to get everything handed to them, lefties have to fight for their rights (see, even the term ‘rights’ mocks the left handed). Cars are made for right handed people, roads are made for right handed people, I have to try to cut at work with my off hand because even scissors are made for right handed people. Hell, where are the positive role models for lefties? There are more gay superheroes than left handed ones! Computers have to be reconfigured for left handed people, we used to be seen as witches etc etc etc. [/Attmay]

    Ok, can anyone read the above and not laugh at the stupidity of it? All the above may be true, except my resentment. I’ve adapted and flourished in a Right handed world, without a court telling the world to accept me.

    My favourite line of attmay’s rant is “And I don’t agree that the state has no right to decide who can and cannot marry, which is a bad argument for gay marriage. I just happen to think they are wrong to exclude homosexual couples.”

    That’s not an arguement, that’s a whine. That’s saying “I don’t care what society thinks, My opinion is all that matters, screw everyone else!”

    As I’ve publicly said, I voted -for- the DOMA in Ohio as a defensive measure. I’ve also publicly condemned events like the Folsom Street Fair, not as a gay man (which I’m not) but as a member of the D/s community (which I nominally am).

    So can you make any argument that doesn’t appeal to the “screw you all, I’m the only one that matters” arguement?

    Comment by The_Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 6:19 am - November 7, 2008

  14. Perhaps, I should leave.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 7:27 am - November 7, 2008

  15. Hope I didn’t offend you V the K, that was not my intent.

    Comment by The Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 7:29 am - November 7, 2008

  16. I was half-joking, LiveWire. And it wasn’t directed at you. I do take the Mormon-bashing personally, but I have a pretty thick skin. We all do, actually. We’re a pretty tough group of people; which is why you don’t see *us* go whining to the courts every time things don’t go our way.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 8:33 am - November 7, 2008

  17. I also wonder whether those who blather about “equality” also favor the repeal of all hate crimes laws… which give teh gheys more rights and protections than heterosexuals get.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 8:37 am - November 7, 2008

  18. “I do take the Mormon-bashing personally,”

    But not gay-bashing.

    Comment by Dave — November 7, 2008 @ 8:55 am - November 7, 2008

  19. V the K:

    I do take the Mormon-bashing personally, but I have a pretty thick skin.

    I’ve taken more than a few jabs at V over the years, but I’ll vouch that he’s no crybaby.

    Anyway, what the LDS and Catholic churches and other religious groups may have had to say about Prop 8 — that is, about same-sex marriage — concerns me a lot less than whether they tend to be a major force against DP and CU legislation in that part of the country. (Since it seems obvious to me that wanting to preserve Marriage™ as a uniquely heterosexual institution is rather different from insisting that same-sex couples should not expect any legal recognition under any name from the government that their tax dollars help to fund.)

    Comment by Throbert McGee — November 7, 2008 @ 9:30 am - November 7, 2008

  20. Most of what Dave calls “gay bashing” on this forum is when NDT points out the depravity that goes on at Folsom Street Fair, or when someone takes gays to task for their hypocrisy in demanding acceptance while denying tolerance for others. Since I don’t engage in either, I don’t take any of that criticism personally.

    I think same-sex marriage is a joke. Erik thinks my faith is a joke. It’s whatev. But I must note that no one is going to court to force everyone to accept my faith. And while it’s perfectly okay to smear Mormons any way one wants, it is a apparently a “hate crime” for a Mormon to say “That’s so gay.”

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 9:31 am - November 7, 2008

  21. Thanks Throbert. I’m gonna miss you when you’re condemned to the Outer Darkness. ;-)

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 9:33 am - November 7, 2008

  22. V, within the space of about half an hour last night, I managed to earn myself an ASBO through November 2028 (yes, really) on the blog that doesn’t ban anyone. Meaning I’ve out-bigeled bigel, out-POO’d POO, and out-Eded Ed, among other illustrious names!

    Anyway, compared to the hell of being forever separated from the Love and Light of DL, the Outer Darkness is sure to be a teddy bears’ picnic. But I shall soldier on, somehow…

    Comment by Throbert McGee — November 7, 2008 @ 9:54 am - November 7, 2008

  23. Yes, Pointless Odor has made the-blog-that-doesn’t-ban-anyone unparticipatable-in. Will the wandering exiles from LGF ever find a homeland where we can be safe?

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 9:58 am - November 7, 2008

  24. Something else that just occurred to me:

    Los Angeles City Councilman Bill Rosendahl said, “We’re not going to let a perversion of Christianity stop us.” He is referring to the major fund-raising roles played by the Mormon and Catholic churches

    Hey, if the actions of some Mormons amount to “a perversion of Christianity,” at least he’s tacitly acknowledging that Mormonism itself is a form of Christianity. That’s more luv than Romney got from a lot of Evangelical Protestants!

    Comment by Throbert McGee — November 7, 2008 @ 10:01 am - November 7, 2008

  25. Hrm, the GP comment system just ate my last comment. But I meant to say that if the actions of some Mormons are “a perversion of Christianity,” as per the L.A. Councilman, then he at least concedes the point that Mormonism itself is a form of Christianity — which is more lurv than Romney got from a lot of the Evangelical Protestants!

    You’ve come a long way, V baby — here, have a Virginia Slim on me.

    Comment by Throbert McGee — November 7, 2008 @ 10:06 am - November 7, 2008

  26. “My Marriage Is Not Subject To Your Vote” (if I had one).

    That depends. If, by “marriage” you mean your *commitment* to your partner, then indeed, it is not subject to anyone’s vote. If, by “marriage” you mean having a State license in hand to compel third parties to change how *their* actions that might touch on you and your partner, then it is subject to a vote and rightly so. Grow up and deal with it already, Attmay. Figure out how to win at the ballot box.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — November 7, 2008 @ 10:29 am - November 7, 2008

  27. Ever since I realized I was gay, I have been resentful of heterosexuals.

    Then YOU have a problem, eh? You resent >90% of the world, and of the people/sex that gave you life. Please note: That is not to claim your feelings are wrong. Feelings are neither right or wrong, they just a form of energy. I have my share of resentments. And I take responsibility for them. I resent people, for example, for emotionally voting for a fool who is probably a Communist at heart and probably now going to ruin more than one nation on this Earth. And I am taking steps to deal with my resentment. It’s my problem. After I’m done, Obama will still be wrong and I will still fight his destructive policies. But I will be happier and more responsible and powerful in my own life, because my happiness will not be tied to how other people vote, or what they do or don’t understand. I call it, responsibility. I also call it, personal power.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — November 7, 2008 @ 10:44 am - November 7, 2008

  28. Considering that California has a hell of a lot more blacks and Latinos, one has to ask themselves why those protesters insist on ignoring that fact yet focus all their ire toward Mormons.

    Excellent point. Apparently, anti-gay blacks and latinos get a ‘pass’ from the Gay Left.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — November 7, 2008 @ 10:48 am - November 7, 2008

  29. The outer Darkness,

    Isn’t that where Cthululu lives?

    Comment by The Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 10:58 am - November 7, 2008

  30. I’m new here so please forgive my ignorance of previous discussions, but I have a few points and questions:
    To me, equal protection in employment is more important than gay marriage/partnerships. I can be married in my heart, but I need a job where I can’t be fired just for being gay. I believe this issue would also be easier to get passed, but somehow has been dropped by gay leaders.

    Even with legal state marriage, the IRS still refuses to allow legally married gay couples to file as married due to DOMA. Is there any action on this?

    The IRS gets to decide what is an official church, thereby getting tax-free status, and what isn’t. Does anyone else find this a violation of the first amendment?

    Why haven’t gay leaders who want same-sex marriage, muslim leaders whose religion allows for 4 wives, and mormon sects/cults who want multiple wives join together to claim that the decree of marriage=one man, one woman is defacto establishment of religion by the government which is against the first amendment.

    Why isn’t a legal marriage license from Mass valid in other states? I thought there were precedents that a marriage license from one state where marriage is legal at age 16 would be legal automatically in another state where marriage isn’t legal until age 18. Why don’t they apply to gay marriage?

    Thank you for your site.
    Russ in Delaware

    Comment by Russ — November 7, 2008 @ 11:47 am - November 7, 2008

  31. Isn’t it obvious why it is easier to protest in West LA by the Mormon Church than in South Central by The West Angeles Church?
    No Mormon will come out and beat your up for protesting them, but do you really think the blacks will sit quietly by as you have your hissy fit?

    Meanwhile, I watched Roger Simon on PJTV with Pam Spaulding of Pams house blend blog, (need to register, but not pay to see this)
    http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=video&video-id=736&video-title=PJTV_Daily_Nov._6th_The_Future_for_Gay_Rights&series-name=PJTV_Daily_
    When Roger asked her about the Black community, she basically threw it back at him – she a black lesbian will not confront the black community, maybe a little Jewish guy from Los Angeles will do it for her??

    Homophobia is a real problem. I think it is much worse in the black community than in the Mormon one. But in it’s infantile state – the gays go out and have a temper tantrum in the one area of town where probably 90% of the people are on their side.

    Please, grow up already!

    Comment by Leah — November 7, 2008 @ 11:54 am - November 7, 2008

  32. No V, what I (#16, I didn’t write #7) call gay-bashing is the ignorant condemnation of the majority of LGBT people because of the actions of a few. What I call gay-bashing is churches who, whether honestly with their own money or in a sleaze manner by pushing their members towards doing so, spend millions of dollars for attack campaigns – and not just about marriage. What I call gay bashing is calling gay marriage “a joke”. What I call gay bashing is the never ending flow of denial and defense on here of those who who lie about us. You accept what they say, perhaps even enjoy it, and join in the chorus against those who don’t bend over and ask for more. People in Florida have now lost any chance of civil unions or domestic partnerships yet it is more important for some on here to attack LGBT folk than it is to say one tiny little negative word about that.

    #15 – actually V, religious groups benefit far more from hate crimes than LGBT people.

    Comment by a different Dave — November 7, 2008 @ 12:05 pm - November 7, 2008

  33. Gays v. Mormons. A HUGE amount of resentment is building between the two factions. This could get ugly.

    Shortly after we were approached by a man who told us not to proceed if we “knew what was good for us”. Having been there all day we hadn’t given it much thought. Long story short. The 20 year old woman, Amy, and I continued walking and were quickly jumped from behind by three men screaming at us that we had no business being outside THEIR temple. They knocked us on the ground and kicked us a couple times til the police ran over. Of course, the cowards ran away. The officer offered to help us up. Amy and I looked at each other, said no thank you, pulled ourselves up and brushed ourselves off.

    The Sonic-Mate’s family is Mormon and have treated me with great respect. I would be lying if I said I didn’t have a bit of resentment against the church at the moment. I was looking forward to marrying the bastard this winter, but now I’ll have to wait.

    Comment by sonicfrog — November 7, 2008 @ 12:16 pm - November 7, 2008

  34. I don’t know, sonic, that story sounds kind of ‘Ashley Todd’ to me.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 12:28 pm - November 7, 2008

  35. I would note, however, that Mormon Temples are considered highly sacred. Not even all members are allowed into the temples. They are used for the highest and most sacred ordinances in our faith. And we all know how little respect gays show toward other people’s sacred beliefs. I seem to recall incidents with ACT-UP and Holy Communion wafers, for example.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 12:43 pm - November 7, 2008

  36. I agree V the K. Trust, but verify. My Partner’s an ex-Mormon, but the most agressive tactic she’s had to deal with were plates of cookies.

    Comment by The Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 12:47 pm - November 7, 2008

  37. Frankly, V, first off, you know I always have your back on this one.

    Second off, the gay movement is finally showing its true, shrieking, antireligious bigot and hatemongering colors to the whole world that gay conservatives have known about for years.

    And right now, HRC and EQCA can’t stop it — because they know that, if they try, the mob will turn on them instead and beat the ever-living sh*t out of them. Twenty years of PR by these organizations being undone by the very flock of screaming poo-flinging winged monkeys that they cultivated, kept, and taught to hate unthinkingly for years to unleash against anyone in the movement who would dare question what they’re doing.

    Schadenfreude is pathetically inadequate to describe the emotion I’m feeling right now. :)

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — November 7, 2008 @ 12:49 pm - November 7, 2008

  38. This, on the other hand, seems to have a bit more substance to it.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 12:56 pm - November 7, 2008

  39. The “JoeMyGod” blog shouting “Burn their churches to the ground!” is not very helpful or tolerant.

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 1:10 pm - November 7, 2008

  40. #32: “My Partner’s an ex-Mormon…”

    The Livewire, I believe the term you’re looking for is “formon.”

    Comment by Sean A — November 7, 2008 @ 2:51 pm - November 7, 2008

  41. Well i could have said ‘recovering Mormon’ but V the K gets enough grief ;-)

    Then again, I’m a Lutheran Heritic, what do I know?

    Comment by The Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 2:58 pm - November 7, 2008

  42. I know a lot of Formons here in San Diego too. And they have more in common than just their former religious affiliation: they are all, without exception, physically perfect in every way. Seriously, those boys are all tall, gorgeous, perfect teeth, perfect bodies and the nicest guys in town. Plus, they are all fluent in Spanish because they spent two years living in some God-forsaken village in Central or South America doing their “mission.” There’s some seriously good genes flowing through Utah and since they all marry within their faith, their children look like the perfect spawn of some master race. It freaks me out a little. My friend Dave (who is one of these guys that stops traffic) had his entire family visit for his 30th birthday, including his younger sisters–all three of them made Heidi Klum look like some hideous freak who should be ringing the bells at Notre Dame. Don’t get me started about his two brothers…at the party, it was like a supermodel bomb had exploded…

    Comment by Sean A — November 7, 2008 @ 3:55 pm - November 7, 2008

  43. Apparently, anti-gay blacks and latinos get a ‘pass’ from the Gay Left.

    You know, it is what it is. There is a lot of anti-gay prejudice in the black and Latino communities. But there is also a lot of anti-Mormon prejudice too. My point is, as a political tactic, the No on 8 people should have used that pre-exisiting prejudice to vilify the Mormon’s, make the amendment about their support of it, and keep the margins down in those communities.

    We probably would’ve won then.

    Comment by Erik — November 7, 2008 @ 5:25 pm - November 7, 2008

  44. Unfortunately, as a convert, I don’t have access to any of that genetic perfection. >:-(

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 5:26 pm - November 7, 2008

  45. #41 So you’re admitting “We can’t win on the merits of our argument, so lets focus on breaking their coalition.”

    Classy

    Comment by The_Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 5:58 pm - November 7, 2008

  46. People in Florida have now lost any chance of civil unions or domestic partnerships yet it is more important for some on here to attack LGBT folk than it is to say one tiny little negative word about that.

    Damn straight. If it weren’t for dictatorial “LGBT” (God, I hate that politically-correct, anal-retentive term) trying to force their definition of marriage down everyone else’s throats through activist courts, then Florida and 29 other states in the country (some of them among the most liberal) would not have moved to ban gay marriage permanently. The fascist thugs of the “LGBT” (didnt you forget a couple letters?) are precisely where everyone should be placing the blame. But, by all means! Keep it up! You only have 20 states to go!

    Comment by American Elephant — November 7, 2008 @ 6:56 pm - November 7, 2008

  47. V, it may very well be another “Ashley Todd” (which I was the first to call BS over here), but it sounds like something that could easily happen, given the tensions, and the source is one I find credible. What we don’t know is what happened at the Temple. Something might have set the Mormons off, such as the demonstrators actually breaking in or vandalizing the Temple. Regardless, like I said, this could get ugly..

    Comment by sonicfrog — November 7, 2008 @ 7:18 pm - November 7, 2008

  48. If I wasnt sure before, the antics of the gay left in LA, the threats of violence on blogs like Joe’s and comments by Victocrat homos here have convinced me that passing prop 8 was precisely the right thing to do. They have made it clear that had it not passed, the intolerant extremists on the left (the ONLY intolerant group in this equation, btw) would have used gay marriage to attack religious freedom and the freedom of speech in the courts as they have everywhere else gay marriage exists.

    What a repulsive lot.

    I am becoming increasingly convinced that leftist gays are at the very center of everything that divides this country, so immovably determined to remain the victim that they would sooner destroy the country than question the delusion that they’ve created for themselves that there is no difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality.

    I dont think Ive ever been more disgusted with the “gay community” –and thats saying an awful lot.

    Comment by American Elephant — November 7, 2008 @ 7:23 pm - November 7, 2008

  49. It’s only going to get ugly if teh gheys insist on vandalizing the sacred places of Mormons. I haven’t seen anyone on any Mormon blog (yes, they exist) shouting “Burn down teh ghey bars.”

    Comment by V the K — November 7, 2008 @ 7:24 pm - November 7, 2008

  50. #46: “They have made it clear that had it not passed, the intolerant extremists on the left (the ONLY intolerant group in this equation, btw) would have used gay marriage to attack religious freedom and the freedom of speech in the courts as they have everywhere else gay marriage exists.”

    Excellent point, AE.

    “I dont think Ive ever been more disgusted with the “gay community” –and thats saying an awful lot.”

    Ditto.

    Comment by Sean A — November 7, 2008 @ 8:56 pm - November 7, 2008

  51. Yay! I’m vile.

    It seems some people have never heard, or refuse to believe, two wrongs don’t make a right…

    Comment by BeLinda — November 7, 2008 @ 9:09 pm - November 7, 2008

  52. Oh, and I wonder if Harry Reid will get this same treatment.

    Comment by BeLinda — November 7, 2008 @ 9:13 pm - November 7, 2008

  53. #28: I don’t think a one state is compelled to recognize any license issued by another state. Driver’s licenses are recognized in all states as a convenience (provided the driver is old enough). Same with marriage licenses (however, states do regulate eligibility for marriage licenses – e.g. age). On the other hand, California has no obligation to recognize my KS concealed-carry license.

    Some of the comments here bother me a lot. For instance:

    Ever since I realized I was gay, I have been resentful of heterosexuals.

    I don’t know all that many people but some of the more resentful gay people I know are angry because their lives as gay men are so empty.

    A dear friend of mine killed himself a couple of years ago because, bless his heart, he wanted so much to be in love yet he just couldn’t find a man who would be a faithful husband. He resented straight people because he was surrounded by people who appeared to have (and take for granted) what he ached for.

    Putting your happiness into the hands of other people is guaranteed to bring disappointment.

    As far as marching on the churches – perhaps these people need to recall Kristallnacht (where certain, well-known fascists took out their frustrations on a religious group).

    Comment by SoCalRobert — November 7, 2008 @ 9:23 pm - November 7, 2008

  54. I’m disgusted by the gay community, too, but for different reasons.

    I’m disgusted they didn’t go far enough in attacking the enemy.

    I’m disgusted the voter turnout in San Francisco, the gayest place on Earth, was only 50%.

    I’m disgusted the reaction to this miscarriage of justice hasn’t gotten uglier.

    A dear friend of mine killed himself a couple of years ago because, bless his heart, he wanted so much to be in love yet he just couldn’t find a man who would be a faithful husband. He resented straight people because he was surrounded by people who appeared to have (and take for granted) what he ached for.

    That’s a horrible story, SoCalRobert. I, on the other hand, refuse to be a victim. But I won’t pretend I like something when I really do not (like modern art, for instance).

    Heteros aren’t going anywhere for awhile, and the only reason I attack them is for catharsis. I know I have to live with them.

    As for “religious freedom,” a church or synagogue that wanted to perform gay marriages would be in violation of the law in California (and most places, really). Is that not a violation of religious freedom?

    Comment by Attmay — November 7, 2008 @ 9:34 pm - November 7, 2008

  55. *yawn* I don’t know the validity of that statement Attmay, but I do know that if I want to have an Aztec ceremony and cut the heart out of a volunteer, I’m going to have problems.

    Comment by The_Livewire — November 7, 2008 @ 10:48 pm - November 7, 2008

  56. Sounds like AE wants to have his own Kristallnacht. And then what AE, shooting squads or gas chambers, or does your hate filled mind have other delights in store for those who “are at the very center of everything that divides this country”. AE, you make Fred Phelps look like a strong supporter of gay rights. There is something really dark behind your hatred of gay folk. It is one thing to disagree with a group’s tactics or attitudes but what you display here is pure evil. If thinking of another man’s wife is adultery of the heart then you are a mass murderer.

    Comment by a different Dave — November 7, 2008 @ 10:56 pm - November 7, 2008

  57. Attmay – I believe that allowing same-sex marriage would be of great benefit to society (enabling stable relationships, making it easier to care of partners in sickness and in old age, providing a “civilizing” effect, etc) and, IMHO, that’s the argument that needs to be made.

    I don’t think the “equal rights” argument will work. Like it or not, polygamists (and whatever-ists will use “equal rights” for their cause as soon as our claim is honored).

    I cannot understand why so much was invested in court action when it’s resulted in a backlash in just about every state it occurred. I cannot understand why the school in SF saw it necessary to take first graders to a lesbian couple’s wedding a couple of weeks before the election. I cannot understand why the “no” campaign saw fit to run the offensive “Mormons invading the house” ad.

    As I’ve written before, telling me I’m a racists/sexist/bigot/homophobe/xenophobe is the fastest way there is stop me listening. And that’s true for most people.

    PS: I think churches can perform all the marriages they want – it’s just that without a marriage license, it won’t be recognized by the state.

    Comment by SoCalRobert — November 7, 2008 @ 11:19 pm - November 7, 2008

  58. #52: “That’s a horrible story, SoCalRobert. I, on the other hand, refuse to be a victim.”

    Attmay, what does SoCalRobert’s friend committing suicide have to do with you refusing to be a victim regarding the passage of Proposition 8? SoCalRobert’s friend didn’t kill himself because same sex marriage isn’t legal in California. He did it because he was devastated by relationships with men who refused to be monogamous. What is the connection?

    Comment by Sean A — November 7, 2008 @ 11:31 pm - November 7, 2008

  59. Sounds like AE wants to have his own Kristallnacht.

    So what we have here are people like Dave, who are currently running around screaming about how evil Mormons and threatening to break their windows and burn their sacred buildings, invoking Kristallnacht.

    Every magnet in the city and county of San Francisco just went flying towards that post.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — November 7, 2008 @ 11:31 pm - November 7, 2008

  60. And NDT keeps up his perfect record of being totally wrong about me.

    Comment by a different Dave — November 8, 2008 @ 12:26 am - November 8, 2008

  61. It’s getting uglier….

    Via Insta-P

    Comment by sonicfrog — November 8, 2008 @ 1:44 am - November 8, 2008

  62. As for “religious freedom,” a church or synagogue that wanted to perform gay marriages would be in violation of the law in California (and most places, really). Is that not a violation of religious freedom?

    No it wouldn’t. Certain denominations (Unitarians are one example I think) perform gay union ceremonies all the time, and any church that wants to is just as free as ever to continue performing them. Nothing illegal about it. The state simply doesn’t recognize it. The state only recognizes one kind of marriage no matter who performs it.

    Seriously, is there anyone besides gay conservatives who is for gay marriage who has the slightest idea what they’re talking about?

    Comment by American Elephant — November 8, 2008 @ 3:04 am - November 8, 2008

  63. Filtered GPW :)

    Comment by American Elephant — November 8, 2008 @ 3:05 am - November 8, 2008

  64. #53 LOL!

    #9 But something like 60% of Americans openly say they wouldn’t vote for a Mormon President. Anti-Mormon prejudice is more rampant than anti-gay prejudice. The “No on 8″ folks were fools to not fight fire with fire.

    If I were to give the ‘No On 8′ campaign any credit, they were smart not to use the Mormon religion as a negative-positive, meaning demonizing them (funny how we all use that religious term) via exoneration by association. Affirming that a Mormon position is the same as that of many Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Assemblies, etc. helps to legitimize Mormons in the minds of suspicious Christians, ultimately unifying ‘Yes On 8′ and future political issues.

    But I don’t give them any credit.

    Comment by Ignatius — November 8, 2008 @ 3:41 am - November 8, 2008

  65. Sounds like AE wants to have his own Kristallnacht. And then what AE, shooting squads or gas chambers, or does your hate filled mind have other delights in store for those who “are at the very center of everything that divides this country”. blah, blah, whine, whine, woof, woof…

    A Differently-Abled Dave,
    I’m not the one taking to the streets with torches ready to burn down churches, thats you guys, I’m not the one talking about “the enemy”, that’s you guys…

    just more evidence to prove my point. Name any issue that divides this country and the one thing they all have in common is that the gay-left is always front and center, hysterically demonizing, demagoguing, and dividing more energetically, more vocally, and more hatefully than anyone else.

    And no, I dont think you should be rounded up and shot or gassed, thats what lefties do, not conservatives. I think you should be mocked, ridiculed, your asinine ideas destroyed and laid bare, and then I think you should be largely ignored until such time as you see fit to grow the fuck up.

    Comment by American Elephant — November 8, 2008 @ 3:47 am - November 8, 2008

  66. I think the reason it’s getting uglier is because the activist left doesn’t have a model for advancing its positions that doesn’t involve demonizing its opponents.

    It will be quite a dilemma for The Zero’s Justice Department if teh gheys start burning black churches.

    Comment by V the K — November 8, 2008 @ 7:12 am - November 8, 2008

  67. Ok, I just wrote this in response to a post on another blog where the blogger asked what it was that the prostesters in CA want. But it seemed so germaine to the discussion here, that I wanted to repost it, cus i really think it gets at the crux of the issue:

    When it comes right down to it, what they really want is to believe themselves an aggrieved minority. Victomhood is the new status symbol on the left. Belonging to an aggreived minority group lends an air of righteousness and brings real moral clout. And what many liberals have discovered is that it no longer requires actual victimization in America to obtain that moral “high-ground” — that feigning victimhood now suffices. And being different is much harder when you can’t claim victimization, it requires introspection to come to terms with one’s differences — that’s much harder than blaming others.

    In that vein, most of the gay-left have actually convinced themselves that there is no significant difference between gay relationships and straight relationships and as such, believe, or at least have convinced themselves, that they are being denied a fundamental right by not having their relationships treated the same way straight relationships are.

    So, I guess what they want is two-fold. They want society to validate them — even if they have to force society to do it — and until they get that, they want to play the victim.

    So, in a sense, by protesting and threatening to riot (and worse), they are geting precisely what they want — they are reinforcing their own delusions of victimhood. But because the underlying problem is their own insecurities, it wouldnt matter if you gave them marriage, if you gave them openly gay military service, they would still find reason to be aggrieved. Thats why everywhere gay marriage has been passed, gays are still suing churches, religious leaders and others for discrimination, hate speech, etc…

    Comment by American Elephant — November 8, 2008 @ 8:21 am - November 8, 2008

  68. [...] Gay People Behaving Badly [...]

    Pingback by GayPatriot » Angry Gay Activists Demonize Mormons — November 8, 2008 @ 10:07 am - November 8, 2008

  69. [...] Gay People Behaving Badly [...]

    Pingback by GayPatriot » Angry Gay Activists Demonize Mormons — November 8, 2008 @ 10:07 am - November 8, 2008

  70. #62 pretty boring response considering all the trouble you went to make it stand out. I think you should take some time to see what’s being said in far right circles, the temper tantrum of the protesters will end soon, what you stand for and defend destroys forever.

    Comment by a different Dave — November 8, 2008 @ 10:49 am - November 8, 2008

  71. Oh, I’m not out in the street protesting and threatening so you can shove your “you guys” BS as far up into the hole you talk from as you can get it.

    Comment by a different Dave — November 8, 2008 @ 10:51 am - November 8, 2008

  72. #64 Well done.

    Comment by Ignatius — November 8, 2008 @ 11:31 am - November 8, 2008

  73. #52: Attmay – I posted a response earlier but the filter ate it.

    I think the pro-SSM side is divided into two camps: those of us who genuinely want marriage in its “traditional” sense (monogamy, commitment, &c) and those who want to deconstruct marriage to subvert the traditional culture they resent (see AE’s post #64).

    I suspect that many of these protestors don’t really want marriage and all that goes with it. They just want to be pissed off. Does anyone know how many civil unions have been filed in California? After all, a CU in California is legally a marriage in all but name.

    I’ve long thought that the left consists mostly of “aggrieved” groups that really don’t like each other. This is a good example: lefty gays making racial slurs:

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTM3MWYyMGE5MTY0MDJiMmNiODdjNzI0ZTkzY2Q4N2I=

    Comment by SoCalRobert — November 8, 2008 @ 3:37 pm - November 8, 2008

  74. Yeah, I spoke too soon, up at #26. Blacks aren’t actually getting a ‘pass’ from the Gay Left. Well, I have always suspected (and sometimes said) that lefties are the real racists in our society.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — November 8, 2008 @ 5:41 pm - November 8, 2008

  75. #70:

    I am in the first camp. I believe that the ideals behind marriage are sound.

    #71:

    We should be making inroads to minority communities, not attacking them.

    What passes for leadership in the gay community needs new copies of “How To Win Friends And Influence People” for Christmas.

    Comment by Attmay — November 9, 2008 @ 3:13 am - November 9, 2008

  76. [...] on the protests here (wondering what they accomplish), here (favoring persuasion not protest), here (faulting protesters) and here (calling protesters sore [...]

    Pingback by GayPatriot » Stop the Protests. Begin the Introspection. — November 13, 2008 @ 4:12 am - November 13, 2008

  77. [...] and hurling slogans demeaning its members, labeling them “scum” and calling them “vile.”  All because Mormons were among the most generous supporters of the campaign to pass Prop [...]

    Pingback by GayPatriot » Pajamas Piece on Perez — April 28, 2009 @ 10:25 am - April 28, 2009

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