**UPDATED**Â Bloomberg News calls this the “Obama Bear Market“. GayPatriot, again ahead of the crowd….
It’s okay folks… don’t worry about these “gyrations”.  The White House wants you to blame Rush Limbaugh for Obama’s horrible economy and tax & spend proposals. Look the other way…. nothing to see here.
Except your retirement and hard-earned money going up in smoke.
-Bruce (GayPatriot)
I’m trying to decide if he (Obama) is merely ignorant of economics or doing this intentionally. Every time he or Geithner opens their mouths, another 500 points drop off the DOW. The market is a leading indicator, investors discount what they expect to happen in coming months to a present value. They obviously don’t hear or see anything this administration has done or is promising to do that will positively impact the future. Someone needs to smack Hussein upside the head and explain to him how markets work, and how economies work.
Here’s your analogy
Obama is to financial markets, as Bush is to New Orleans after Katrina.
Good analogy…. but that also presumes that Bush physically made the hurricane *worse* before it hit NOLA.
Obama has *definitely* made the Financial Katrina worse since he and Roberts flubbed the Oath on 1/20/09.
As I think I’ve said before, the recession began on W’s watch (with plenty of help from Congress). That being said – Obama is a disaster.
The market was going to fall regardless. But if Obama had the right ideas (or a clue), I think the markets would have leveled off (or slowed their descent). Instead, as John (#1) points out: every utterance by these Barry and his crew shaves another few hundred points from the market. Guess we’ll all work until we drop.
And to think I believed that 8000 was the bottom. If only.
The market has spiralled down since Obama was elected. The stock market is essentially a confidence poll. I think we have our answer about the confidence most feel in this leadership. They think he’s a lovely ornamental, but they sure aren’t putting any credence in his abilities as a manager.
Were Obama to announce a cut in capital gains to 10%, the market would soar 1000 points or more. He won’t. He thinks there are greater economic considerations than the health of the market such as universal medicine and federal control of pensions and 401k accounts. The stock market is a snapshot of the future and I’d say I’m jumping back right around 6000. Seriously, I believe the coming year will be a great time to buy, especially well-diversified blue chips and energy stocks. Obama’s environmental sh*t is just starting to hit the fan.
There was hope the new “team” would come into office prepared to hit the ground running, new energy to turn the economy and peoples confidence. Nope. Especially after Obamateleprompter said “wait til tuesday, I don’t want to steal my Treasury Sec thunder.” Then Geithner fell like a thud. Now another Obamateleprompter economic team withdraws….
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Treasury-secretarys-choice-apf-14561605.html
and Obamateleprompter lies about the number of medical bankrupcies in order to instill fear in America.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenumbers/2009/03/medical-bankrup.html
Little Timmy G is proving to be an incompetent Secretary of the Treasury. No wonder no one wants to work for him.
I’m watching energy ETFs and the SPDR. I’m just not sure I feel comfortable with the way the SPDR has underperformed the market. I’m thinking Consumer Staples or Utilities.
Now might be the time to look at construction and materials too.
Bruce has a great point – by putting up the Daily Obama Tracking Report since last November, we can safely state that it is all Count Baracula’s fault.
Regards,
Peter H.
How come Bush always got to complain about the recession Clinton handed him? That’s out the window now that it’s a Republican handing off to a Democrat?
Yay consistency!
Levi, no one is denying that Obama got a crappy enconomy. The point is he has done NOTHING that will help matter, he is just making the situation much worse. The market as a leading indicator would have responded positively if he offered anything that remotely resembled true stimulus. The market has announced a huge vote of no confidence in his economic plans. We are witnessing the biggest theft of wealth this nation has ever seen. I’m beginning to think the unthinkable, President Biden, might actually be better.
Perhaps because liberals set the standard that a president is no longer responsible for ANYTHING once they leave office?
Not to mention that Chairman Obama was one of the poltroon liberals who handed the economic shit sandwich to all of us.
It’s pointless to argue with liberals about the meaning of recent and short-term fluctuations (constant nose-dives) of the market and to attribute them to anything Obama or his administration has done. The reason is because if this continues for the entire Obama Presidency (either 4 years or 8 years) they will STILL attribute it to Bush and/or Republicans and/or deregulation and/or tax cuts, etc. No matter how much evidence there is in the future to demonstrate how horrible Obama’s agenda is for the economy, they will NEVER admit it and place the blame where it belongs. Liberals REFUSE to learn from history. If they won’t do it 4 or 8 years in the future, why would they do it now?
One other point. The ‘recession’ (scare quotes because it was a slowdown, not a true recession) that Bush ‘inherited’ (again scare quotes, as I remember President Clinton and Algore complaining that Bush/Cheney were ‘talking down the economy’ again apparently a power only Republicans have) was treated with tax cuts (yes *sigh* and spending) and the economy recovered. 9/11 happened, tax cuts and spending recovered.
Now we have bail outs, massive spending and tax hikes across the board. How’s that working out for you?
I think this is less a matter of confidence in Bush or Obama as much as it is a matter of confidence, or lack thereof, in the solvency of AIG, Citigroup, Bank of America, et al. Our major banking institutions are insolvent as are the companies that were supposed to be insuring them. The same would be true if McCain had been elected.
Levi,
The crappy economy that Bush handed off to Obama was largely the work of a Democrat Congress protecting the Fannie and Freddie shell game. I BLAME Bush AND the Republicans for their profligate spending. Naturally, I can NOT blame the Democrats from stopping them, because there is NO Democrat who OPPOSES profligate spending. The Obama-Pelosi-Reid Presidency is on a binge spending spree that is beyond monumental.They do no need even one Republican vote in either the House or the Senate to support them. They want the Republicans to endorse their madness and they are made even more nutzoid because they are not getting “bipartisan” cover for their rape of the economy.
Here is a small mystery for you, Levi. Bush added the Iraq War to the deficit. Now, Obama has knitted that cost into the yearly budget. Do you know why? Because that makes the war expense part of the base line of running the government. That gives him that huge expense to grow the government. Smoke and mirrors. Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure. Obama has added the war debt to the general budget with a stroke of the pen.
How would you like it if I took the loss in the “value” of my home and my investment “losses” off my income tax? H-m-m-m? Since I have “lost” 50% of my savings and home values, I suspect I could get offset tax liabilities for several years.
Levi, what I am proposing is Obamanomics in reverse. It is as fair and as steeped in “logical” economics as the tricks he is pulling off.
The Democrats have more fat cats than the Republicans. They have and utilize all the same tax loop-holes you like to rant about in demonizing the Republicans. The reason Biden’s sons are lobbyists is to get tax favors written into legislation for their fat cat clients. The reason Daschle went into the lobby business was because he wanted to make the millions he made for influencing legislation that was beneficial to his clients. When you embark on your virginity dance, it only succeeds in making you show your fanny to the world.
I feel sorry for you and your fairy tale Obamessiah and your sense that he can do no wrong and must be protected from even an occasional fart. You, Levi, are a toady of the first order. Whether you know it or not, Obama doesn’t know you exist or even care. If it were to his advantage, he would step on your lunch in a New York minute.
#17 – Houndie, apparently you don’t remember the early 1980s when Reagan came into office. Double-digit unemployment, double-digit inflation, the “misery index” and a cannibalized military to boot. Let’s not forget Chrysler and the air-traffic-controller snafus.
Reagan didn’t whine about all of this. Nor did he blame Carter, although he had every right to. He did the only smart thing that could be done in this situation – he increased defense spending, which had a multiplier effect in job creation. Then he cut social spending.
He didn’t give cash to his political cronies as a reward for their support and throw the money down a black hole (unlike a certain Snob we all know). Reagan’s approach had the effect of reducing unemployment about 2 years into his presidency, and, combined with improving consumer confidence, led to the boom of the 1980s.
If The Snob wanted to achieve the same results, he needs to use the same methods. Unfortunately, he’s either too proud or too stupid to admit that he can’t do it any other way.
Regards,
Peter H.
Well, so far the wealth-redistribution has been a total success.
Hurrah for Team Obama and “Change You Can Believe In”.
First the Finacials, then the Health Care sector. Next will be the non-union Manufacturers and Small Business with crippling new “universal” health-care mandates. Then they’ll finish off the privately-held small businesses and professionals by eliminating Subchapter-S and income pass-throughs for Limited-Liability entities.
My business friends and I met 5 months ago when the Obamateleprompter victory seemed apparent. You are seeing what business people planned at that time. If a socialist administration came to power we knew this would be the result. So we acted early. Lay offs and terminations. We did not expect it to get this bad. Obama unemployment at 8% and growing to 10% or more. We will continue cutting labor costs as long as the govenment considers business part of the problem instead of part of the solution. We expected some efforts to grow the economy and stimulate not efforts to continue to scare people. Good luck Mr President.
Ronald Reagan began the financial collapse. When he assumed offfice, the accumulated DEBT since Independance was 1 trillion. In four years he doubled it to two trillion. Defence spending is notorious for its weak economic multiplier. The famous 200 dollar seat seat is just a sample of money literally pissed away. Does anyone think Iraq is a multiplier?
But Ronnie did more than introduce what his budget director called ‘voodoo economics’.
He introduced the idea of president as an idiot savant.
Someone who his own staff regarded as ‘dumb’ (Stockman’s word) but who had some magic sixth sense to appoint the right person to actually think about the problem.
But at least Reagan could remember his lines.
Bush was the quintessence of Reaganism- a complete idiot.
And that’s part of how we got here.
Perhaps, Nick, you should explain the Keynesian Multiplyer? While you’re at it, perhaps you can explain how castrating the military under liberal team-killing fucktard administrations benefitted the country.
I can tell Nickwit, there, has his sweater on to explain how liberals had absolutely nothing to do with the ass jamming they handed us. They were just sitting on the sidelines minding their own business and Henry Waxman’s just chomping at the bit to start investigations on the matter.
Just when I think the night’s entertainment is over, you get to see a great piece from a real liberal fuckwit to cap it all off.
My disdain for Nictard was filtered.
#23 – Mine isn’t.
On behalf of TGC and myself, Nictard, here is your rebuttal:
The deficit rose to $230 billion in 1985-86, but it was not because of tax cuts or defense spending – it was because of unchecked growth in entitlement spending by a Dhimmicrat Congress. (You know, sort of like the so-called “stimulus package” we just got saddled with.)
Every single budget that Reagan proposed was pronounced “dead on arrival” by then-Speaker Tip O’Neill. Reagan reluctantly agreed to sign some “deficit reduction” tax increases, which was supposed to include $2 of spending cuts for every $1 in increased tax revenue. But guess what – Congress failed to make the budget cuts it had pledged.
Gee, who would have thought it? Dhimmicrats breaking a promise to the American people! But I digress.
Even if you look at 1987-89, when the economy was really rolling along, the deficit fell to $150 billion, even with pork-barrel spending by a Dhimmicrat Congress. Why? Because economic growth creates a bigger tax base and therefore, the government gets more tax revenue. It’s a simple supply-and-demand scenario, which unfortunately most libtards don’t understand because it’s not a central-planned economy like those havens of liberty of North Korea or Cuba.
Chew on this, Nicky – if Congress had made any strides at curbing their pork-barrel spending between 1987-89, Reagan would have left office with no deficit in sight.
So you see, it wasn’t Reagan’s fault. It was the Dhimmicrats’ fault. But you are either too partisan or too stupid to realize this fact.
Checkmate.
Regards,
Peter H.
Gateway Pundit and hotair have tracked the Barock Market with respect to the S&P five hundred comparing it to the opening days of the Great Depression and FDR’s inauguration and it finds that Barack has caused more damage to the stock market than Herbert Hoover and FDR Combined.
Hope and Change, you betcha!
ummmm….if you followed the economic forecasts in the months before the election, you might have noticed this further downtown had been long predicted, along with the rising unemployment, etc. Officially, our recession was declared to have begun by economists in December of 2007, long before nominees were fully selected. Also, it was predicted that the economy would probably not turn up again until at least the end of 2009, if not sometime in 2010. By the way, pull back the start date of that chart by at least a year: the downward turn in the market began in 2007.
But, I guess I shouldn’t expect any less from a group of people who whined that all the problems during the Bush years were entirely Clinton’s fault.
24: Well, by your description, it sounds like your hero Reagan didn’t really stand up to Democrats like you claim he did. hmmmmm
#27. I look forward to you not crediting the recovery that you say is inevitable to President Obama.
Also, since you can’t refute that the decifits from the 80’s are Democrat induced, you then turn to insulting the person who reduced them as much as he could. Thank you for admitting that Democrats = Deficits.
I can’t believe all that I’m reading about an administration that has not even been in office for 2 months yet. You guys are hysterical! You got it all figured out in just a little over a month. LOL! Ridiculous.
Amy, you obviously don’t agree that Obama’s first 50 or so days in office have been a ceaseless vaudeville of daily gaffes, outrages, catastrophes, one after the other. Obviously, our concerns about the damage he is causing to this country is a source of endless hilarity to you. So, how about you get in the game and give the rest of us your take on Obama’s first 50 days? Go ahead and tell us about the positive things he has done for this country so far (other than retaining Bush’s wiretapping policies and asserting even greater Presidential authority to keep his wiretapping practices a secret in the name of national security). Are you capable of that? Because if not, then it’s really YOU that’s ridiculous.
Obama’s first 50:
Banned torture.
Stopped restrictions on embryonic stem cell research with embryos that would just be thrown away or frozen forever if not used for research.
Reversed freezing of funding for birth control clinics (yes, abortions are performed at these places too) where healthcare for poor women and babies is provided at minimal costs.
Trying to help homeowners stay in their homes.
Trying to help the economy. NO ONE KNOWS IF IT WILL WORK YET BECAUSE IT’S TOO SOON TO KNOW!!!!! It will take years for us to know if it works.
Timetable for getting our troops out of Iraq (where we never should have been to begin with) and putting troops back in Afghanistan where SURPRISE, the people that attacked us are taking over once again.
Obama has done more good for this country in 50 days than Bush did in 8 years.
Amy
Amy.
1) except when he feels it’s needed. In fact he’s encouraged rendition and his adminstration has fought for it in court.
2) Um no. Besides, there’s a reason that the private sector doesn’t fund
cutting up frozen peopleembryonic cell research. All the cures have come from adult stem cells. the fat in my pasty white butt is worth more than embryonic research.3) How? By destroying wealth and investment? He’s taking from the 92% who pay and are on time and giving it to those who couldn’t do it. Congress is also destroying the concept of private contracts by forcing government intervention. People do not have a right to be protected from their own stupidity.
4) The Dow and markets see how well it will work. The economists see how well it will work. If it will ‘take years to see if it will work’ I guess that makes this the Clinton recession? The Carter Recession?
5) Failing to secure supply routes into Afganistan is more accurate. And we always had a time table for Iraq. It’s called ‘we leave when we win’. You have heard he’s talking about keeping huge troop numbers there as advisors didn’t you?
5a) He’s talking about negotiating with the Taliban. That would be ‘the people that attacked us’
5b) He’s also made it perfectly clear that the US has no allies, and any agreements we have are null and void.
Republican fear-mongering at it’s best. I’m not surprised.
I recall getting a stimulus check from President Bush 9+ months ago. Wonder why with the economy being so strong and all. Oh, and didn’t Bush bail out the first round of failing banks? What? With the economy so strong and stable! Damn President Obama. Coming in and ruining our whole economy in 50 days. He really is the Messiah if he can do that! @@ People, let’s get real here.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/03/2000-crash-bush-09-obama/
“The latest idiocy coming out of the usual collection of misfits, dolts and cheerleaders is that the last 20% leg down in the market is pretty much all President Obama’s fault. Now before I explain — yet again — why this is so foolish, I have to point out that just about everyone who is saying this has been pretty much wrong about, well, pretty much everything.
This collection of seers, pundits and talking heads have a track record that would make the 1927-1933 group of Pompous Prognosticators blush with pride. Their sterling track record includes:
• Failing to recognize the importance of the Housing Boom;
• Not understanding the impact of ultra cheap credit;
• Failing to notice the economy weakening appreciably in 2008;
• Missing all of the warning signs of distress in firms as varied as Bear Stearns, AIG, Lehman, Citigroup, Freddie Mac, Wachovia, Countrywide and WAMU;
• Utterly missing the most telegraphed recession in history;
• Believing the sub-prime problems would be contained;
• Expecting the rest of the globe would decouple form the US economy;
• Believing that deregulation was the path to prosperity;
And many more.
That this pool of idiots missed all of the above merely suggests that are grossly incompetent as market and/or economic observers. That they now want to blame Obama for what happened only compounds their awful track record, and reveals them as nothing more than shameless partisans.
Using their own logic, let’s have a look at what occurred at this point in history — March 5, 2001 – during George W. Bush’s first term in office: From election day in 2000 to today, March 5th, here’s how the market behaved:
>
Nasdaq November 4, 2000 – March 5, 2001
That’s off about 33%.
To really prove the point, let’s see the same chart from when George Bush started leading in the polls in early September:
>
Nasdaq September 1, 2000 – March 5, 2001
>
Down about 50%.
By the idiot squad’s reasoning, the 2000 tech wreck was all George Bush’s fault. Funny, I don’t recall hearing any of that from them in 2000-01.”
I am not an Obama cheerleader. For the record, I found his selection of Larry Summers to be awful, and his choice of Tim Geithner as Treasury Secretary ill-advised. But to hold him responsible for a market collapse on day 41 of his Presidency — following 8 years of gross negligence and ruinous incompetency under the Bush regime — is simply too much stupidity for any damaged nation to bear.
Please tell me you don’t agree with No on Prop 8 (I see an advertisement to join the No on 8 group on your blog). That would seriously make me cry for you all. I can’t imagine hating myself so much that I feel I don’t deserve the same rights as other Americans. 🙁
The “Self hating” canard?
Really?
Your third post?
And you can’t refute a single point in my post?
Bruce, Dan, I’m disappointed.
I thought your blog attracted a higher class of troll.
#36: Actually, The Livewire, even before the “self-hating” comment, I was impressed with Amy’s record time at #33. In under 3 comments she managed to hyphenate “mongering” with one of the usual leftist buzz words (hate, war, fear…) And that list at #31? Lord help us. That is only like one-sixth of the individual catastrophes Obama has unleashed on us in the last 50 days. It was naive of me to think that a robotic leftist troll-ette like Amy would understand the assignment (no, Amy, I said a list of POSITIVE things Obama has done for this country).
And I especially love this bit: “Trying to help the economy. NO ONE KNOWS IF IT WILL WORK YET BECAUSE IT’S TOO SOON TO KNOW!!!!! It will take years for us to know if it works.” Okay, Amy. I think we get it. If we question the wisdom of spending 2 trillion dollars we don’t have on things we don’t need, then we are traitors to our nation and we want America to fail. But if we ignore every shred of economic history and just pretend that we have NO IDEA what’s going to happen and hope for the best on this plan that you concede will “take years” to get rolling, well, that’s PATRIOTISM. What a surprise–for a liberal to think you’re a patriot, you have to also be delusional.
The fact is, I would be willing to suspend all judgment and keep my mouth shut about the economy for two years and “give Obama a chance,” if I thought for even a second that if (when) the plan fails that people like Amy would concede that it didn’t work. There is absolutely no scenario that would compel someone like Amy to lay the blame exclusively on Democrats for anything. There isn’t a conservative that visits this blog that doesn’t routinely acknowledge Bush’s overspending at a time when he had the power to reign it in (and should have). But the left concedes NOTHING. It’s Reaganomics, Republican-led deregulation, defense spending, etc., that’s caused our current economic climate. If you bring up Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, or any of the other “affordable housing” pimps and all you get is those looks as though you just set yourself on fire and passionate tirades defending that band of retards. In hindsight, the first red flag that signaled the collision course that FMx2 was on should have been that one of its top executives was willing to have sex with Barney Frank. Anyone willing to do that shouldn’t be trusted with a checking account, much less a multi-billion dollar lending institution. So, I refuse to pretend that Obama’s plan has a chance in hell of succeeding. Liberals are going blame Republicans for its failure anyway, so we may as well get on the record as early as possible condemning Obama’s POS economic plan as 100% prosperity-proof.
Its only been two months. If any of you ever went to an economic class, you would know that these bear conditions can’t change as quickly as they were created.
The housing bubble burst, and its spilled throughout many markets. This was going to happen even if God himself was president. Obama may do good, or he may fail, but give him some time.
That’s like getting mad at a baseball general manager because his team lost their first four games. We got a long way to go.
True Americans don’t bitch. Lets get to work. If you show non-Americans that we’re crying and whining, they will think we are weak.
And Sean, how about this: I won’t blame republicans, but you gotta do the same for Obama. Can’t be a one-way street. We are all to blame. I am American enough to share that statement with the rest of you. I hope all of you have the balls to admit it yourself as well.
I see your point on the Democrats wanting Bush to fail, but if we go down to their level, then what does that make us? If we want to make a statement for America, does it make sense to do the exact same thing, just for the sake of evening the score.
I say, let’s make America better, or we will all look like bickering children.
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”
The difference redsox, is that we’re trying to propose other ideas. We’re not calling Obama evil, or Joe Biden the mastermind behind the throne *snickers at that thought* It’s not “bickering children” to point out that throwing money at AIG isn’t the answer. It’s not “bickering children” to point out that fetal stem cell research has been shown by the market to be a dead end (litterally). And it’s not “bickering children” to worry that Obama’s done more damage to our relationship with Britain and ‘New Europe’ than the Democrats did at Yalta.
#38: “And Sean, how about this: I won’t blame republicans, but you gotta do the same for Obama. Can’t be a one-way street. We are all to blame. I am American enough to share that statement with the rest of you. I hope all of you have the balls to admit it yourself as well.”
The fu*k we are all to blame, redsoxmaniac. The Democrats in Congress spent the last days of the Bush Presidency calling hearings to scrutinize Lehman Bros., AIG, hedge funds, credit rating agencies, and even Bush Administration regulators. But what shocker–the toxic twins at the center of the mortgage melt-down, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were immune from the same scrutiny. And naturally, when pressed to launch an inquiry and drag the leftist criminals running the government-inbred institutions, what was Henry Waxman’s response? They’ll get around to it AFTER the election (to ensure there was no embarrassing blow-back to the Messiah).
Well, the election was over almost 6 months ago and what has been done? NOTHING. The Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee Barney Frank has a long, sordid history dating back to the early 90s of thwarting efforts to regulate the institutions, accepting campaign money from them, and sharing a bed with one of the executives who helped develop many of the institutions’ lending programs. And even the suggestion that Frank should resign from his Chairmanship (while still remaining on the committee) was quickly silenced as some evil, gay witch-hunt. Frank is still the Chairman of the committee charged with oversight of the institutions and NOT ONE THING has been done to reform their lending practices (nor will anything ever be done with this Congress and this President).
Oh, but I forgot, redsoxmaniac. WE ARE ALL TO BLAME. So, I guess I should just get with the program and give Obama a chance, right? To do what? The same fuc*ing thing all over again? Let’s see, same companies, same regulations, same oversight, same corrupto-crats in charge, and no investigation whatsoever into the companies’ prior collapse or what caused it. Hmmmmm. You’re right, redsoxmaniac. It sounds like a “can’t lose” investment. Where do I sign up to give this brilliant plan a chance to succeed?
Help! Filter!
1) except when he feels it’s needed. In fact he’s encouraged rendition and his adminstration has fought for it in court.
“It’s a start. I recommend a documentary titled, “Taxicab to the Dark Sideâ€, if you can stomach it.”
2) “Um no. Besides, there’s a reason that the private sector doesn’t fund cutting up frozen people embryonic cell research.”
You really want me to respond to your “cutting up frozen people†comment? What for? It’s asinine and speaks for itself.
“All the cures have come from adult stem cells.”
Um…maybe that’s because there has not been federal funding for embryonic stem cell research??? There has been significant leads in curing MS from the private embryonic stem cell research being done. What do you propose we do with all the “human beings� Throw them in the trash? Keep them frozen forever ? (That’s some quality of life there!)
And by all means, if your ass might hold the cure for MS, take your head out of it and donate it to science.
3)” How? By destroying wealth and investment? He’s taking from the 92% who pay and are on time and giving it to those who couldn’t do it. Congress is also destroying the concept of private contracts by forcing government intervention. People do not have a right to be protected from their own stupidity.”
What is he taking from the 92% that pay and what is he giving to those who couldn’t? How does that work SPECIFICALLY? Did Bush bail out banks and give us a stimulus check or did I just imagine that?
Look, I’m not for bailing out stupid people, including these banks! I was for, “Let all the banks fail, let the foreclosures happen, and let’s just lie in the bed we’ve created as a country.” I was against the stimulus checks Bush sent out. I am against any stimulus checks Obama may be sending out because I don’t think it will work. But, as far as his stimulus package, I really don’t know if it will work. I’m taking a “wait longer than 2 weeks since it passed” approach. 😉
4) “The Dow and markets see how well it will work. The economists see how well it will work. If it will ‘take years to see if it will work’ I guess that makes this the Clinton recession? The Carter Recession?”
You are so silly. Do you really think that ANYONE would be able to turn this economy around in such a short period of time? The stimulus package will take a couple of years to see the effect (if it works! Which none of us know at this point!) That’s a fact backed by knowledgeable economists. This recession was coming regardless. President Obama is trying to lessen its effect and timeframe. But the recession was coming whether you want to admit that or not.
5) “Failing to secure supply routes into Afganistan is more accurate. And we always had a time table for Iraq. It’s called ‘we leave when we win’. You have heard he’s talking about keeping huge troop numbers there as advisors didn’t you?”
Leave when we win? Win WHAT? What about leaving when we saw there were no WMD like we were told? What about leaving when we realized Bush was an f’ing lying sack of crap? What about leaving when we KNEW that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 like Bush was always trying to tell us. We went to war over WMD! No WMD – get out. I’m pissed off that Bush lied to us. If you don’t think he rushed to war for his own personal vendetta, then you are burying your head in the sand.
5a) “He’s talking about negotiating with the Taliban. That would be ‘the people that attacked us’”
We should always try diplomacy first. Period. And I’m sure you are not aware of this, but diplomacy also helps to build support. If people see effort at diplomacy by us, with good faith effort on our part, and it fails, other countries are much more willing to lend support. War should always be a LAST resort. Bush and Cheney have done such damage to our foreign relations, we need some diplomacy right now if we ever want support from other countries again. Contrary to popular belief, America needs the support of other countries militarily and with any foreign policy.
5b) “He’s also made it perfectly clear that the US has no allies, and any agreements we have are null and void.”
It’s looking pretty grim as far as our allies go. ïŒ Hopefully that can change with Obama.
FTR, I don’t think you hate yourselves because you are Republicans, conservatives, and dislike Obama. I would say you hate yourselves if you support the No on 8 campaign. I was simply referring to that. You can be gay and Republican. But I’d say you can’t be gay and support No on 8 without some bit of self-hatred.
Amy has it rigth i’m afraid, if you supported the no on 8 campaign, you’re a self hating gay.
Look, I agree with her on something *laugh*
1) It’s a start that doesn’t make a difference. Unless you’re honestly arguing that it was ‘all torture all the time!’ snort. It’s the same policy, you just won’t admit it.
2) Economics, my dear Amy, we don’t see private funding for embryotic research because there’s no profit in it. and Monash University proved you can turn aduly fat cells (like in my aft, and between your ears) into adult stem cells years ago. See, this is what happens when you read the literature. So yes, it may well be in there. It’s not in small humans. You conceed they’re human. So, would experimenting on and harvesting a 1 year old be fine by you? How about a 5 year old?
3) So you conceed that the hand out under President Bush didn’t work, but you think more of the same will? That’s sad. Yes, the answer is to let the underbrush burn, and then the forest will regrow.
4) Turn around no, make it worse? Well he clearly has. Pity the market can’t read a teleprompter.
5) Maybe Obama will be able to secure bases from these ‘Moderate Taliban’ we found. Oh, and we did find WMD in Iraq *sigh* And apparently two congressional commissions found he didn’t lie. Or maybe you also think that Karl Rove beat up the Doctor and took the Tardis back to the 90’s when we declared that Regime change in Iraq is the policy of the United States.
5a) Show me where the damage is? I mean besides alienating Britain, selling out our allies and negotiating with terrorists. Why not go to Iran in a nice two piece. You can negotiate from the gallows all you want.
They’re trying to kill us period. You’re saying that we shouldn’t have gone into Iraq because they’re not connected to 9/11. Now you’re saying we should talk to the people who were in charge of 9/11. “A moderate Taliban would only saw your head halfway off.”
Like I said, I thought this site attracted a better quality of troll.
You did not answer my questions so I will skip response to your post until you have.
Is everyone new to the board considered a “troll” or am I saying something specifically that qualifies me as one?
you’re special, but only in the short bus kind of way.
And I did answer them. I’m sorry you’re not coversent on current science, on history, on Prop 8, or on negotiating with people who want you dead.
What could President Obama offer the ‘moderate’ Taliban “Well what if we just let you wipe out half the US?” “You can have the gays, but we want the women?” “You can rape brutalize and opress your part of the world, just leave us alone?”
That last part is the Clinton doctrine. see 9/11/01 for its effectiveness.
#43: “5a) “He’s talking about negotiating with the Taliban. That would be ‘the people that attacked us’â€
We should always try diplomacy first. Period.”
Amy, you’re not a troll because you’re new. You’re a troll because you’re a useless, ignorant fool. Have you actually heard of the Taliban? Know anything about the group? Below is one of their genocidal “greatest hits”.
The worst attack on civilians came in summer of 1998 when the Taliban swept north from Herat to the predominantly Hazara and Uzbek city of Mazar-i-Sharif, the largest city in the north. Entering at 10 am on 8 August 1998, for the next two days the Taliban drove their pickup trucks “up and down the narrow streets of Mazar-i-Sharif shooting to the left and right and killing everything that moved — shop owners, cart pullers, women and children shoppers and even goats and donkeys.” More than 8000 noncombatants were reported killed in Mazar-i-Sharif and later in Bamiyan. Contrary to the injunctions of Islam, which demands immediate burial, the Taliban forbade anyone to bury the corpses for the first six days while they rotted in the summer heat and were eaten by dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Ethnic_massacres_and_persecution
Enchanting aren’t they? Yes, Amy, by all means, diplomacy first, without exception. I think the perfect strategy would be to send our newly-minted Secretary of State over to Afghanistan and demand immediate peace talks. There’s nothing the Taliban reveres more than a woman in a position of power wearing a pantsuit.
Amy, your ignorant, leftist, bumper-sticker talking points are annoying enough, but could you please get your sh*t together and at least bother getting the basic facts straight on Prop. 8 before launching into your TIRED “self-hating gays” pitches? You have now ridiculed and condemned people on this blog twice based upon their support for “No on Prop. 8.”
Amy, Prop. 8 was a ballot initiative that amended the California Constitution to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Consequently, “NO on Prop. 8” means you support same sex marriage. So, in your pedestrian, silly language, the so-called “self-hating gays” would be supporters of “YES on Prop. 8.” Is any of this sinking in?
Liberals are apparently now so retarded that we have to clarify their arguments for them so that they can more effectively insult us.
I must say, this is one of the utmost impossible debates I have ever seen.
The economy is bad, yes, but you have to think about all the free lending that was being done! My banker that I would trust with my life savings (and actually do) predicted this about 3 years ago, saying “When Bush leaves, he’s going to leave a big mess for the next man.” Well, it was useless to think that all would be perfect at the end of the chimp’s (Bush) rein, I mean come on! The guy can’t even drive one of those stupid vertical scooter things.
But enough about the past, we should look to the future. America is leaning twoards the social side of the scale, and dosn’t look to be letting up anytime soon. My best firend’s dad, worked 38 years at the same construction company, and died on the job. He got absolutely no care while he WAS alive, and his pention case was dismissed a few years earlier, guess why? Because he had to take off a month on year to move to another home.
There are so many problems that can be fixed by issuing uni. health care. I say as in the words of M. Moore “Why does our government do this? To instill fear in the homes and jobs of America, if not for that, we could easily rise up against them, and take the country back. But from day one, you owe your body, mind, heart, and soul to this country, and for what? Constant debt, poor living conditions, expensive health care, and so much more!”
I’m in college to be a highschool math teacher, I’m going to be in debt till I’m 40, and even then, along the way, I’ll have reached out and grabed another plate of shit pie.
In France, they have cheap resources, free college to those who really WANT to go, free universal health care, and a government that FEARS IT’S PEOPLE. No wonder the rest of the world hates us, we as a country are isolating ourselves in our own little black hole to hell, and the road back WILL NOT be as easy.
Give Obama a chance, I voted for him, I went to a few of his rallies, and watched his progress from day one of the election.
By the way, the same discussions have been over-done, and done-over with a broom handle, and a mack-truck. I really don’t care who is sitting on the throne, solong as they have a plate of change, cause I want some of that.
Americans fear change, what is so bad with change? Change is for the better. If not for change, we would still be in England and sipping tea while watching rugby, with planks of wood for teeth.
Also, in my area alone (Knox county, TN) every other house is for sale, litteraly, every other house, on my way to the college, I counted over 30 for sale signs, and I only live 10 mins away. Even my neighbor is moving, he’s going to Germany to escape his debt, and I’m think he has a pretty good idea, I may just run off to another country if things get any worse, but I doubt that we have much more to endure till’ Obama get’s his act together.
[/End Rant]
-Joe Marve
You didn’t answer my questions. I will recap quickly.
There has been private funding for embryonic stem cell research. Bush policies made it extremely expensive for scientists to do the work they needed though. You couldn’t even use the same building or microscope for stem cell research if you were taking any federal funding at all. I will ask again:
1. What do you propose we do with all the embryos that will not be used? Throw them in the trash? Keep them frozen forever?
2. What is he taking from the 92% that pay and what is he giving to those who couldn’t? How does that work SPECIFICALLY? Your spouting off about this reminds me so much of Republican fear-monge…..um….the fear Republicans try to instill in everyone. I have a conservative friend that said, “I want to keep my guns, and my money, and my rights!” When I asked him if he thought Obama was going to come into his house and take his guns he replied, “Well, no.” When I asked him if he made over $250,000 a year so he would have his Bush tax cut repealed, he replied, “No.” And when I asked him to tell me specifically what rights Obama was going to deny him, he had no answer. Maybe you can do better?
3. Do you really think that ANYONE would be able to turn this economy around in such a short period of time? Do you disagree that this recession was coming WAY before Obama got elected?
$800 stimulus checks are different than an entire stimulus package that will poured back into the the businesses of America and create new jobs altogether in America. Obama inherited the 2nd worst economy in US History. There is no precedence for us to know if his package will work. I know it is certainly better than sending out $800 stimulus checks which is like putting a band-aid on a leak in a dam.
LMAO about 9/11 being Clinton’s fault. So, 9/11 happens 9 months into Bush’s administration and it’s Clilnton’s fault. But the crash of the economy which began a year ago and has steadily gotten worse is the fault of the administration that has been in office for a tad over 50 days? I see how it works. @@
My apologies for saying the “no on 8” when I meant the “Yes on 8” campaign. It is something I am very passionate about and I’m afraid I jumped the gun after reading this site and seeing so many new veiws from gays/lesbians that I haven’t seen before. I wrongly assumed you would be on the opposite side of that as well. For that, my sincerest apologies. I volunteered a lot of my time for the “No on 8” campaign (and got my children involved in their first volunteer effort) so I’m happy to see that we are in agreement about that. Sad to see that the deceitful adds the Yes on 8 campaign used worked. 🙁
Amy
Don’t freak out Sean A.! It’s not as “scary” as you think. The truth never is.
US willing to negotiate with the Taliban
During an interview on Friday, President Barack Obama stated that the US was not winning the war in Afghanistan and explained that Washington is considering negotiations with moderate factions of the Taliban. The precedent for reconciliation talks was set in Iraq, where the government reached out to Sunni militias, and much success was had in persuading insurgents away from more radical elements of al-Qaeda. However, Obama also recognised the complexities of the situation in Afghanistan and the fact that suitable groups would have to be found for any negotiations. The Pakistani government’s compromises to rebel groups, such as the recent deal involving the introduction of Sharia law in the Swat valley, has been criticised by the administration in Washington. A fine line will have to be drawn, it seems, between giving way to terrorist organisations and drawing more moderate insurgents into an alliance with the US. Last month,Obama ordered an additional 17,000 troops to be sent to Afghanistan.
#51 – Amy, your parents just called. Jimmy and Rosalynn want you back in your room and to quit bothering the adults on this site.
Regards,
Peter H.
#50 – “Even my neighbor is moving, he’s going to Germany to escape his debt, and I’m think he has a pretty good idea, I may just run off to another country if things get any worse.”
I’ll help you pack, Joey. One less libtard is always good for America.
Regards,
Peter H.
You got me Peter. Quite the debator aren’t you?
#55 – You just proved my point. Liberals have no sense of humor.
And honey, if I were debating you, I’d use facts and not emotion.
Regards,
Peter H.
Peter, she’s immune to facts, I think she’s proved that.
She’s so ‘passionate’ on prop 8 that she didn’t know which side to vote on.
She ignores economic data that shows the mess we’re in is being made worse, not better, by the ‘stimulus’ that was passed by President Bush (which I disapproved) and then Senator Obama voted on and then expanded by now President Obama.
She ignores intelligence failures pre-9/11 to bolster her arguement.
She wants to negotiate with people who want her dead, covered in cloth, illiterate or all three.
Yes, Amy is quite immune to facts, tact, and humour.
I’m laughing alright. 😉 If anything, this site has been humorous.
#58 – Quite a change from the doom-and-gloom and all-out-hatred of HuffPo, DK and MoveOn, right Amy ol’ gal?
You see, we embrace happiness here. Unlike our left-leaning contemporaries, we can enjoy life and not make it miserable for others.
Regards,
Peter H.
#51: Amy, it’s no surprise to anyone on this blog that your “sincerest apology” is one in which you say you’re sorry for getting the facts wrong in the course of INSULTING people for being “self-hating.” You can keep your fu*king apology.
And, Amy, thank you for demonstrating perfectly the phenomenon of liberals being so completely sucked in by their worship of Obama, that he could literally scream in your face that he’s going to dismember your children and you’d later recount Obama’s words as “Lincoln-esque.” You are so incapable of thinking for yourself that when you hear this:
“Obama also recognised the complexities of the situation in Afghanistan and the fact that suitable groups would have to be found for any negotiations.”
You feel perfectly comfortable telling me not to “freak out” about this:
“…for the next two days the Taliban drove their pickup trucks “up and down the narrow streets of Mazar-i-Sharif shooting to the left and right and killing everything that moved — shop owners, cart pullers, women and children shoppers and even goats and donkeys.†More than 8000 noncombatants were reported killed in Mazar-i-Sharif and later in Bamiyan. Contrary to the injunctions of Islam, which demands immediate burial, the Taliban forbade anyone to bury the corpses for the first six days while they rotted in the summer heat and were eaten by dogs.”
Amy, you are hopeless. You enlist your children in a self-righteous crusade against the “deceitful” Yes on Prop. 8 campaign (and I have no doubt that you have taught your children to believe that the Christians, Mormons and conservatives who supported it are evil). But you believe a soulless band of serial-killing savages are entitled to American diplomacy?! Do you know what the Taliban does to people who they suspect of having same-sex attraction? Do you know what Iran’s sharia judicial system does to teenagers who are suspected of homosexuality? I know you’ve educated your kids about how “oppressed” gay people are in the US–have you bothered to mention to them how women are treated in the Middle East? I have my doubts.
Amy, neither Obama nor liberalism has given you “hope.” What you interpret as “hope” is just your inability to distinguish between right and wrong. If you’re not gay yourself, but decided to work for the campaign against Prop. 8 out of some narcissistic idea that gays need your help in the “fight,” let me be clear: I don’t want a moral relativist like you speaking for me and I will not be sending you a muffin basket to thank you for your support. Thanks, but no thanks.
#59: Oh, Peter H., haven’t you heard? Moral relativists like Amy find people like us (who still know the difference between right and wrong) endlessly amusing. The fact that we ignorantly reject the idea of diplomacy with the Taliban? Oh, it’s just so quaint.
Who is behind the curtain? Who is pulling Obama’s strings? The same ones who pulled Bush’s strings. Don’t be fooled by the dog and pony show of “left vs. right” drama . . . . look behind and see who is controlling all this. Here is a great new video that tells the whole story. You will be shocked but will have your suspicions confirmed: “The Obama Deception”: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886780711843120756