I think there are degrees of lying. I think McCain is well-meaning, just egotistical and not very bright. He has spent his whole life trying to protect America. I grant him that he really wants to serve America. But he is a very poor thinker, is all too subject to self-flattery, and thirsts for left-wing media recognition. He tells certain falsehoods, and he keeps himself blind in certain ways – which makes his falsehoods partially, indirectly willful. But he’s still not as bad as, say, left-wing political operatives who spin and lie continually to increase their own power, and are happy to throw America under the bus. Or, closer to home, blog commentors who spin and lie about good human beings rather than revise their opinions after losing a debate.

It’s not only infuriating to conservatives that party leaders won’t stand up against the media-left’s distortions and lies, but the way party leaders more or less concede their points isn’t exactly going to win over any voters to the Republican side.

Hey ILC, why do you persist in trying to goad and taunt anyone who disagrees with your echo chamber nonsense

Except I don’t. I may goad and taunt *you*, MM. Or others – mainly lefties, but not always lefties – who use shameful tactics equal to yours. And notice that I don’t even do it all the time, with you: I wait for you to whip out your most shameful tactics, as you’ve done in this thread. And I’ve already told you why. The reasons, again, are:

1) You lie about good people.
2) Not that those people need my protection, but, it gives me pleasure to underline the nature of your lies – your shameful tactics.

You seem to not be getting the above, but hey, maybe this time the penny will drop. One never knows.

Debate substance, ILC.

Oh, I do. With the grownups. You don’t seem able to participate in that.

You got a take on why your pals ran down the hispanic vote with the immigration reform issues or McCain’s proposals to address the 20+ yr problem of illegal laborers in America?

MM, that makes no sense. “My pals ran down the Hispanic vote” – wtf? Would that be my college friends? My co-workers? Or the other grownups on this blog, who may be Republicans or conservatives and who are understanding of the fact that I’m not? It’s a mystery.

MM – It’s really simple. I’ll say it yet again. Maybe this time, the penny will drop for you. *You need to stop lying and using shameful, dishonest tactics if you want respect from people* on this or any blog. Not that you have to. It’s fine if you want to use dishonest, name-calling tactics. Perfectly OK. But then you won’t have people’s respect.

I consider you “muddled” at best and perhaps confused.

You clearly dislike red meat conservatives and believe they drive others away.

Ethically, you can not sublimate your principles in order blend in with others. It is not necessary to wear a bumper sticker on your forehead, but a strong belief system is not negotiable or something you sublimate when it comes to choosing and supporting a candidate.

Mitt Romney is far from conservative. If he is the Republican choice in 2012, I will vote for him.

As for now, my wallet is tightly sealed to the many Republican appeals for money.

So far as I am concerned, moderates and independents pose themselves as some sort of extra thoughtful voters. Courting moderates and independents from the left is quite different than courting them from the right. The choices are between principle and goodies. Conservatives don’t do goodies.

Social conservatism, helio, isn’t the problem. On many “social” issues I consider myself a moderate to conservative… right to life issues, funding for stem cell research, end of life issues.

The problem, to put a fine point on it once again, are the soc-cons who stayed home and didn’t vote on Election Day, want to complain endlessly and think it’s their God-given right to continue to pollute the political arena with their spite… all the while claiming they know what’s best for the GOP and America.

Social conservatism isn’t the problem, helio. It’s what happened to the Party that listened to their claptrap and adopted their agenda without considering the consequences to the Party’s viability nor the adverse impact to voting constituencies… which is what politics is all about… voters.

For what it’s worth, I supported Michigan’s own Mitt Romney in the last go around. But I supported and voted for McCain when it came time to stand against Obama and the farLeft.

You think? Are you smoking the same dope that V’s been bonging on?

Oh, I think the next immigration reform package is going to even rock the socks off your furry feet, NDXXX. Only this time is will be passing even with all your pals foaming and venting and ranting with barking bigotries hiding as “national security” issues. I know that NDN’s Sy Rosenberg is already working with Congressional Dem leadership and Administration officials to draft the new proposal; also at the table is Frank Sharry of the radical America’s Voice Project.

You think Health Care is going to be bad… you thought the Stimulus and Omnibus bills were bad… you ain’t seen nothing.

It’ll begin with real, full amnesty for all illegals and any undocmented workers who cross the border before Jan 1 2012. It’ll provide funds to offset “protection costs” and social costs absorbed by sanctuary cities fighting “the good fight”. It’ll likely fast track illegals AND legals on citizenship and modify requirements for same. It’ll raise the work permits and visa quota to allow for more, not less, immigrant wannabes. It’ll mandate hospitals & clincs accept non-documented aliens seeking medical attention. It’ll press for enlargement of the public defenders’ alliances for non-docs. It’ll drastically cut back on ICE and literally call a halt to construction of the Wall. There is a provision floating to add illegal laborers to the list of protected minority classes for federal contracts. There’s another provision to mandate employers pay more in employment taxes to allow illegals to claim workers comp and UI at the state levels. Ouch.

And that will only be the opening gambit… in the Senate. The House will expand the provisions far wider and include lots of provisions that will make the ol’ “McAmnesty” bill look like a good deal even to the most deranged McCain hater in your camp. LaRaza is already working with Rep Lofgren to develop their WishList for the package –the “sweeping” package this time because immigration reform advocates think the ol’ Kennedy bill didn’t go far enough. Yikes.

And who will employers have to thank? Who will young, angry white males complaining about being “Mexico’s bitch” have to thank? Soc-cons like you and your pals fresh from the last HateIsGr8 meeting? Yep.

Fantasy land is your home turf, not mine. And, again, this is yet another example of where the shorthand of your cynical, anti-govt, anti-elites, anti-pragamatism song&dance gets in the way of seeing reality or appreciating the value of compromise for the sake of progress. All of that’s great for bitter, angry white men playing quotemasters over on your blog… but it isn’t governance. It’s an excuse to bitch and high five yourself.

It’s why you earlier railed endlessly and –taking a page from the ILC School of Debate Gamesmanship– would rather demean all GOP candidates with those silly Rudy McRomney taunts about the GOP field rather than actually debate why you thought bigot #1 or bigot #2 were your choice to carry the GOP prez banner.

Your best arguments are better suited for a SouthPark episode; not real political debate and certainly not for the business of governance.

Hey ILC, why do you persist in trying to goad and taunt anyone who disagrees with your echo chamber nonsense or calls you out for the all the games, faux-outrage and meaningless chatter?

Debate substance, ILC. You got a take on the soc-con myth about McCain? You got a take on why your pals ran down the hispanic vote with the immigration reform issues or McCain’s proposals to address the 20+ yr problem of illegal laborers in America? You got a take on why anyone should care what you think about the GOP or her future given that you’ve been an animus toward the Party?

Substance ILC. Or else you can stay out of the debate. Come on, you can do it… I’ve seen you do it without resorting to the juvenile “ohhh, more name calling” gleeful exclamations. You have the intellectual tools, I’m sure. S U B S T A N C E.

I also note that if Bush had really tried to start securing the border in 2001, he probably would have gotten his Amnesty in 2006.

And it will look exactly the same as it did when it was “conservatives” like McCain working with “pragmatic Democrats”.

That’s what you’re missing, Matt. If I have a choice between Obama Party members and Obama Lite Republicans who are going to do the same thing, I’ll take the Obama Party; that way, when they screw up, they own it, and they can’t hide behind “bipartisanship”.

And as far as Hispanic voters go, if the price of their vote is turning a blind eye to welfare fraud, identity theft, and illegal immigration, then I’d rather not have it. You and your fellow Obama Lites would be surprised, I think, at just how strong the opposition is to amnesty and illegal immigration among Hispanics — if, of course, you were to give them a choice including people who actually opposed it.

I’m trying to find some common ground for discussion

But, in your other statements, you explicitly reject all notion of discussion or common ground:

- any resulting reflections or deflections not on the thread’s point will be ignored by me
- #38, please see above
- ILC, for your comments at #s 41-43, please see #39 above.
- Please see # 39 above.
- Please see my expanded remarks at #39. It’s all you need.

Please understand: I don’t give a damn, one way or the other. I just think you’re funny. Quite amusing, in fact. To V, you said:

I’m willing to concede you’re beyond rational debate on this point.

Then made several more attempts to ‘debate’ him. (Really just insult him… but insults are ‘debate’, in MM-land.) See where I’m going? MM: you can’t even keep your own story straight, from comment to comment. You change it wildly.

ere and the other blogs where you’ve irritated the community of commenters beyond tolerance.

Another lie. GayPatriot is, for all practical purposes, the only blog where I comment. Oh wait – I have made a grand total of about 4 comments on IGF in the course of 5 years, and on Teh Resistance, and TGC’s blog a couple years ago. I should be precise and accurate here. But to suggest that I even *try* to be part of other online communities – and am then rejected – is just *another, typical Michigan-Matt lying tactic*.

And John McLandslide will support it.