Yesterday, after the rally in Van Nuys, a reader and I went out to dinner to discuss the events of the day, relationships and family and blogging. She, who seems to follow the comments threads more regularly than I, wondered about the fervor of a particular critic.
In response, I echoed a question I have posed from time to time in the threads, wondering why some who revel in criticizing us, often accusing us of being self-hating and otherwise narrow-minded, spend so much time on this blog. If our words so offend their sensibilities, why do they return to read them on a regular basis? Do they delight in being offended? (Although sometimes it seems they don’t read so much as skim, seizing on a point which particularly excites them.)
Like many right-of-center bloggers, I used to read Andrew Sullivan every day. He was once my first stop in the blogosphere. Yet, as he started to resemble the angry left, I ratcheted down my reading until I only read his blog when another blogger (usually on the right, but sometimes in the middle) linked him.
I found that other conservative bloggers reacted similarly. When they found his rhetoric offensive, they decided they would rather not be offended.
Now, I welcome criticism; some of our critics, notably the fellow who calls himself Scottland, offer some pretty sound rebuttals to our arguments, often (but not always) without rancor. I’m glad they liven up the debate in the threads which sometimes seems a discussion entirely independent of Bruce or myself–or anything either of us has said.
As I write this, something comes to mind, a memory of a conversation I had in DC with a friend who then worked for Log Cabin’s national office. He told me how a certain “ex-gay” leader used to regularly contact him when he was in the nation’s capital. That leader, even after renouncing his gay identity, apparently frequented gatherings of gay groups.
My friend was convinced this guy had the hots for him (after all, he was an attractive fellow).
If we use that anecdote as analogy, that would make these critics closet conservatives. And maybe they are. I don’t know. I just throw it out there in this speculative post which I guess serves more to invite discussion than offer any conclusion.
It’s just that I wonder why those who are ever ready to make assumptions about us, criticize us, sometimes in the most mean-spirited of language, spend so much time on our blog.
I am a gay conservative, and friends think there is something wrong with me. They cannot imagine not being a liberal. I used to be, then things stopped making sense when I looked more closely. People do not like to be told they are wrong, and many gays MAYBE closet conservatives, but feel unwelcome I’m sure along other conservatives. I don’t care about that personally, as I have more in common with conservatives than liberals. Friends (liberal gays) of mine make snide remarks all the time, and I usually just ignore them, lest I get into an argument. It is madness. I see nothing but hatred of America and nastiness on the left and racism and hatred of so many- all while they revile hatred of gays from the other side. Probably didnt really say anything but hope you are well. Take care.
Echo Baldy’s comments. There doesn’t seem to be a place for those of us who are fiscally conservative and, for the most part, socially liberal. In DC – used to be part of Log Cabin – not sure the spinoff (GOPride) has any legitimacy. Not sure Gill’s $$$$ made former LCR statements invalid. Seems one must be 100% for Obama or be ignored, regardless of the merit of one’s convictions. No chance to discuss each issue on its merits. Can’t stand the all or none approach – don’t understand gay loyalty to “do-nothing” HRC – or Democratic party, for that matter. I feel current Administration is a danger to the survival of our country, socially, economically and in other ways as well. But it is as if objecting to Obama’s ridiculous policies regarding taxation, health care, the economic crisis, etc. makes one anti-gay. How foolish, and how wrong.
Your blog at least approaches the issues, and encourages focused thought. Keep it up!
Truth be told, I was the Chairman of the CR’s as an undergraduate and quickly learned that three of the previous four chairs were also gay.
String of self-loathers? Hardly. Those guys were true role models for me and I’m pleased to call many of them friends all these years later.
One was a black, gay conservative who has sadly passed on. I swear, he was the bravest man I ever met. A true American! We miss you, guy!
I agree. I occasionally read liberal/left leaning blogs just to see what is being said about the Right and to arm myself with more information when my liberal friends make their usual comments about racist/stoopid Conservatives, but I find it difficult to stomach and limit my time there. I can’t imagine checking in daily for regular beatings – it would be downright masochistic!
perhaps us liberals are less threatened by those with whom we disagree.
have you ever noticed that there are way more liberals who watch fox news (myself included) than there are conservatives who watch msnbc?
Yes, bob, and have you noticed that FoxNews regularly has more liberal guests than does MSNBC?
And have you noticed the O’Reilly boorish though he can be, never insults his adversaries in the same tone and with the same venom as does Olbermann?
And heck, to find the liberal counterpart of FoxNews, we don’t need turn to MSNBC, just watch any of the three broadcast networks, each of which tilts farther to the left than Fox to the right.
Oh and I do check some sensible left blogs on a regular basis, like Talkleft. I disagree with those folks, but don’t find them offensive or describe them as self-hating.
The oldest reason in the world: Insecurity. They need to convince themselves… and they can’t.
Nimblecat, it’s been in existence, what? 5 days? A week?
I regularly read a selection of liberal sites/blogs with the aim of keeping myself informed about “the other side” and their arguments, ideas [supply your own joke], opinions, etc. Sometimes they really annoy me, especially when they begin to treat conservative ideas, generally getting them all wrong. However, I rarely comment, no matter how wrong they are, or how irritated I am, and I never ever leave abusive comments. I realize that the bloggers and their followers probably don’t care, and I don’t have the time to carry on an extended argument that’s up to my standards.
That said, I don’t think the ex-gay analogy is quite what you’re looking for. Ex-gays have generally been involved in the gay community, often describing it along the lines of the first, if not only, place they’ve ever felt truly accepted and comfortable. Once they walk away from that (usually into or back into the Evangelical community) they find themselves missing it, and feeling sympathy towards it, and in some ways wanting to return to it (it being the feeling of community and belonging), even if they still want to reject the sexual/gender aspects. The sexy academic term for this would be that they’re “stuck in a liminal space.” Not exactly the way I picture the average liberal commenter.
Great insights, B.T. Thanks for chiming in.
#5: “perhaps us liberals are less threatened by those with whom we disagree.”
All evidence is to the contrary, Bob.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7naTR5QCxo
For mine own part, I don’t think you have to read liberal blogs. It’s the SS,DD and enough of it shows up here in the comments. Likewise, it shows up in the mouths of liberals in Washington, the pundits and the MSM/WH stenographers.
For some reason, I picture bob dressed as Prince Humperdink, boldly telling Julie “Your gay conservative movement is dead.” and her replying back confidently “Then why is there fear in your eyes?”
Edit: Right before she says “I’m a Marine %^$%,” and kicks his ass.
Then why do you liberals constantly throw things at conservative speakers, try to shout them down, prevent them from speaking, and want to pass laws (fairness doctrine/local control) to prevent them from disagreeing with you?
Why does Barack Obama threaten to sue people who give money to organizations who might make commercials critical of him? and threaten to sue radio stations who might play ads critical of him?
Why are liberals so viscerally hateful of FOXNews, which a study by the UCLA polisci dept shows has THE most fair and balanced news of any of the major networks or cable networks?
Cus yer full of it. Thats why. 🙂
Maybe this is like a fetish object to liberal/progressives. They get excited by doing something naughty, reading a conservative blog may be like a puritan reading some naughty words or seeing naughty pictures. But they then have to criticize the purveyors of such naughtiness for tempting them to such works.
If we use that anecdote as analogy, that would make these critics closet conservatives. And maybe they are. I don’t know. I just throw it out there in this speculative post which I guess serves more to invite discussion than offer any conclusion.
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.
I used to post at a non-partisan forum whose user base slanted left, though there were a few conservatives mixed in. The conservatives were the usual mix of ignorant and fundamentalist, and their posting was fast and frequent during the 2004 election. As Bush’s second term continued, their contributions began to drop off, and most of them simply began to stop posting entirely. I was tired of them running away from me, and I was tired of agreeing with everyone that was posting, so I sought out more conservative waters.
So here I am. Funny thing is – you guys still run away, you just hide behind silly posts like this that broadly dismiss liberals posting here as closet conservatives, or people that have a complex with their mothers, or whatever other non-rationalizations you can come up with. And while it’s apparently okay for the conservatives around here to speculate about my psychological defects, it is I who am most frequently accused of being vulgar and insulting and mean-spirited.
This goes to the nature of conservative media – it simply isn’t built for disagreement. You guys are organized around a top-down, centralized propaganda apparatus that needs to remain as pure as possible – when you don’t have facts on your side, you need numbers. That’s why it’s so funny to see you trying to divorce yourself from George Bush and the Republican Party, pretending that all along, you guys were the big critics while the liberals were just hateful and mean.
I did major in anthropology in college, so call it that. Some of us want to know why there are still people living in the jungle, I want to know why there are still people living in a movement known more for its ignorance, divisiveness, and failure than for its intelligence, inclusiveness, and successes.
Though credit where it’s due; you guys haven’t banned me yet, which usually ends up happening within a few posts on other conservative blogs. So, thanks for that.
#5- which, of course, is why Barack Obama and the Democratic candidates refused to allow Fox to televise their debate.
I, a stupid libertarian, suppose the leftist presence here is most often something far simpler than a case of closet conservatism or personal regret from a philosophical divorce: attention. Being the fly in the ointment is a strong attraction for some because no political position is necessary other than opposition and that coupled with the predictable reaction it too often receives satisfies his need. This is why we seldom see actual arguments in favor of leftist positions; it doesn’t take much to derail a discussion, especially when derailment is the goal. Whether a leftist argument is able to withstand opposing scrutiny or whether a leftist is willing to expose it to such is entirely beside the point.
Levi (#16):
Oh. How I wish I were half so grand.
Compare the posts from Helitotrope, Peter H, NDT, ILC, and American Elephant to those of Levi, boob, torrentprime, and Terrified Leftist.
1. We express our own thoughts, they repeat talking points they picked up from the left wing echo chamber.
2. When we assert facts, we back them up with links and citations. They don’t, they just expect us to believe what they post.
3. We criticize those who are ostensibly on our side when we believe they are wrong. They shill mindlessly for the Democrat party.
Sorry, mates. But by every reasonable standard of argument, we are smarter and better than you.
You guys are organized around a top-down, centralized propaganda apparatus.
A perfect example of Farva asserting facts not in evidence. Where is your proof, Farva? Nobody pays me to write either of my blogs or participate here. There was no central organizing force behind the tea-parties.
But MoveOn-dot-org is a central propaganda unit funded by dot-com millionaires. George Soros funds a number of left-wing groups. The MSM is a single-point-of-view echo chamber, where CNN, NBC, and ABC cover every story from the same liberal angle.
You also criticize people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh that you never even listen to. You just parrot the talking points the left feeds you. Everything you have ever posted here demonstrates a complete incapacity for critical or original thinking.
V, because *the Left* is a top-down, centralized propaganda apparatus, he assumes the rest of the world must operation the same.
Sorry, “operate the same”, aargh.
#16, Please re-read your own post and use it as fuel for introspection. I understand how you feel, because I feel the same, about you and liberal media. So perhaps you should acknowledge that there are some among you who do fit this description, I have. Your circles are not innocent, neither are mine. This point is surely one purpose of this post.
Another difference between us and the leftoids is our shenanigans are cheeky and fun! But their shenanigans are cruel and tragic. Which makes one question whether they are even shenanigans at all.
I’ve been on both sides of the fence in very dramatic ways … gay/liberal to post-gay/conservative (in every way.) The dynamic you talk about is consistent across the ideological spectrum from what I have seen.
Now let’s see how many people actually make it past that first paragraph. 🙂
What separates the obsessive revilers from the civil opponents?
I think it is more temperament, commitment to civility (or not), critical thinking and to be quite honest … emotional security and maturity.
With an occasional drama queen adrenaline junkie thrown in. <– I can say that … I used to be one.
I have a LOT of thoughts on this including why I read blogs I don’t agree with and what not … I probably just need to turn it into a blog post.
Anyway, once again, I know we strongly disagree on socially conservative issues but I like your blog a lot. I do agree with you on almost everything else and the proper role and function of the government.
VdaK offers: “Sorry, mates. But by every reasonable standard of argument, we are smarter and better than you.”
You left off humility for yourself and friends.
Oh wait, that would tempting the gods.
MM, you left off civility toward people who dare to disagree with you, for yourself and your friends.
Also: Your awesome consistency (or non-hypocrisy) as regards matters that you like to preach such as staying strictly on-topic, etc. 😉