Ashpenaz, I’m usually a bad mind reader (like most people), but you pretty much confirmed here what I was suspecting. That you apparently had a bad experience with Christian fundamentalists. Sorry about that. And I was never a defender of Christian fundamentalists. But again, once one becomes an adult, one has the power to tell anyone else that they are not interested. Once you turned 18, you had that freedom. You had the power to tell people that your dislike of fundamentalism was due to their sinfulness. No, it doesn’t excuse anyone else’s bad behavior. But again, it does differentiate those behaviors from, say, suicide bombers, who again, do not allow their victims any choice in the matter.

I’m not sure what you even mean by “try to escape the gay community.” Is someone from the gay community putting a gun to your head, or other means of physical force, forbidding you to “escape” everytime you want to leave the gay community? Or everytime you decide not to take crystal meth? Or everytime you decide to not have promiscuous sex?

I have many of the same criticisms of the gay community you have. But how is it, with me living in a coastal state, that I have not had these issues with the gay community? I was always able to decide for myself whether or not to have sex with a stranger (and always said no). And on the occasions I was offered drugs I was able to say no (and did). Is the gay community really that bad in your neck of the woods, that you were powerless to say no?

And again, you have failed to address my argument of the difference between a twentysomething who consents to having unprotected sex with someone with unknown HIV status, and a woman who is raped or a victim of a suicide bomber.

1) You might think that someone here might be trying to stop you from “leaving the gay community”. (No one is.)
2) You’ve had bad experiences with Christian fundamentalists and think it excuses your vicious mis-representations not only of them, but of Pat’s comments and mine. (It doesn’t.)

There is no reason to address exploitation, drug use, or STDs because we’re all adults here in Rainbow World.

Not remotely close to anything Pat or I have said.

Thanks, ILC.

Pat, you put the Fidel in infidel.

Ignatius, perhaps my stupidity at 18 is kicking in again, but I’m not sure what you mean here.

If that’s the way you are taking it, Ashpenaz, then I’m not sure what to tell you. I do have compassion and empathy for twentysomethings who were somehow manipulated into having unprotected sex with partners who intentionally are spreading the disease. I don’t think I said otherwise.

What I was saying, and the point that we apparently disagree on, is I don’t view these persons as victims the same way that I view the victims of a suicide bomber. In the former case, the victim had the freedom to simply either a) not have sex with a stranger or b) to protect himself if he chose to have sex with a stranger. Further, since the victim was also willing to have unprotected sex, then he has a reasonable probability of having HIV, and (since he apparently didn’t know the HIV status of his partner) could have transmitted the disease to him.

Did you ever see the movie The Accused? You demean all the women over 20 who have been raped and exploited and then told they were “of age” and they “enjoyed it.”

Yes, I saw The Accused. And this example illustrates the difference I and others had tried to point out. The Jodie Foster character did not have the freedom to prevent herself from having sex (i.e., she was raped). The twentysomethings you refer were not raped.

So let me be clear here. I vehemently condemn persons who force sex on someone else. I vehemently condemn persons who intentionally try to spread an STD. While I despise both types of persons, I rather be approached by the latter, because I have the freedom and opportunity to say no to any sexual advances.

The idea that the victims bring it on themselves is the same logic that terrorists use to justify flying planes into buildings.

I have no problem that we have a point of disagreement here. My issue is that are not making any attempt to address my reasoning and point out where my flaw is. You keep on repeating your assertions without pointing out where you believe my flaw is in differentiating the two situations. Could you at least attempt to do that?

Indeed, you’re proving Ash’s point for him. Props to you. *rolleyes*

If I suddenly stop posting comments, you’ll know I’ve been smitten by Jesus at your bidding.

#42 “But my thinking is that Jesus would not smite anyone who criticizes Christians any more than he would smite anyone who criticizes liberals. Besides, most liberals are Christians.”

Pat, you put the Fidel in infidel.

Folks, this is the lie of religious people who use their faith as a weapon.

Humorless and pretentious, as Iggy comments so often are. Sean A’s #37 was obviously exaggerated for rhetorical effect. Where has he tried to hold himself forth as a “religious person”? (Hint: Not in this thread, or any I’ve seen.)

Oh, haven’t you heard, Ignant? According to Ash, we already are:

“Plus, Christians do the same thing, so you can’t criticize Islamofascists. We’re all just suicide bombers at heart anyway, so you can’t really judge.”

Why recruit when EVERYONE is already a member of a violent, homicidal crusade?

And your comment conclusively affirms that you’re a liberal because only liberals have the unmitigated arrogance to announce who IS and IS NOT a legitimate member of the western religions they despise and misrepresent.

and

And for the record, the “STFU” was actually an act of Christian charity on my part. Jesus was about to smite your sorry ass with a couple of lightning bolts, but I asked him to spare you as long as you STFU about Christians.

OH, I GET IT! This is surreptitious, back-handed witnessing. So at some point, I’ll feel sorry for Christ for having such an embarrassing follower that I’ll be more sympathetic to him. Interesting marketing idea, but it has already been tried and if it were successful, we’d all be Islamic fascists.
As for arrogance, your swagger re. Jesus smiting me is exactly why the Religious Right enjoys its huge popularity and influence.

Folks, this is the lie of religious people who use their faith as a weapon.

You demean all the women over 20 who have been raped and exploited and then told they were “of age” and they “enjoyed it.”

Which, of course, Pat hasn’t done in the slightest.

Pat, your heartless and indifferent comments…

If anybody’s comments do *not* deserve to be called heartless and indifferent, it’s Pat’s. Again, Ash, you’re a fruitcake.

Sean A, perhaps this comment was tongue-in-cheek, and I agree with you that Ashpenaz’s comment about Christians was, at best, inappropriate. But my thinking is that Jesus would not smite anyone who criticizes Christians any more than he would smite anyone who criticizes liberals. Besides, most liberals are Christians.

Ashpenaz, I didn’t know you had a husband. If your husband is battering you then a) I condemn your husband’s actions, and b) you should leave your husband or get help so you can get the strength to do so.

I would say that the person who knowingly practices unsafe sex is equivalent to a suicide bomber–he’s going to die anyway, and he takes innocent people with him.

Not even close. The victims of a suicide bomber had zero choice in the matter. The “victim” of a person who knowingly practices unsafe sex is a person that knowingly practices unsafe sex who made such a choice and had the choice to not even have sex. I thought we at least agreed that all persons, not just gay persons, should not jump into sex with someone they just meet (for among many other reasons, lest the person they have sex with has STDs). And I’d think we also agree that if one does, then at least don’t have unprotected sex.

Many gay teens and twenty-somethings commit suicide because they have been exploited sexually by older men.

I doubt that.

Whenever you exploit someone’s ignorance and lack of experience in order to have sex with them, you are raping them.

No, unless the person is under 18. Again, I was as stupid as anyone else at 18, if not more so. But I was responsible for my actions at 18. And as stupid as I was, I knew I had the power and ability to say no, and did so, in fact.

Again, the fact that “straight people do it, too,” is like excusing Islamofascism because a certain amount of Christians also bomb people.

Except I am not excusing the behavior who are intentionally trying to spread STDs and any person of any religion who bombs persons. What I’ve been saying is that in one case, a person has 100% ability to not be a victim, and in the other case has 0% ability to not be a victim.

Are you trying to say that if a person came up to you and said that he wanted to have unprotected sex with you, that you would not have the power to say no?

Encouraging people to take drugs is like encouraging someone to strap a bomb on his body. You know he’s going to destroy himself and lot of other people as a result.

We may be in agreement here. Because in both cases, the person being encouraged has the opportunity to say no.

I still think that the gay community is just as bad and just as destructive as the Islamofascist community

Which we obviously disagree.

and the STDS and drug and suicide statistics back me up.

Link?

ow–you and Pat are the best apologists for spreading STDs, encouraging drugs, and sexually exploiting young people EVER! The gay community bears absolutely no responsibility for the lives it destroys.

As ILC also said, you are wrong. I’ve never apologized for the persons who intentionally spread STDs, encourage drug use, or who sexually exploit others. And the persons who bear responsibility for the above are the ones who do such behaviors.

but turn a blind eye to an older guy who infects some twentysomething with AIDS while introducing him to meth. Then they blame the victim.

Again, I am not excusing the older guy here. But the twentysomething victim is not blameless either. Not only did the “victim” have the choice to not have sex or drugs, there’s something else going on here. The victim is apparently willing to have unprotected sex with others. And you’re making the assumption that the victim did not know the STD status of his partner. Then the victim himself, for all he knows, could be spreading AIDS to his partner. Why are you an apologist for the “victim”?

And the twentysomething hanging from the crane should have known better than to hold hands with his boyfriend.

Another invalid comparison. You’re comparing a situation with freedom with one that does not involve freedom. Further, I thought the gay persons hanging from the crane were teens.

Obama has deliberately tried to sabotage Pakistan by announcing that the US has been operating on and launching missions from their territory. Unfortunately, that, like his support of the Iranian mullahs, did exactly the opposite of what he intended.

Meanwhile, what’s happening in Afghanistan? Oh, that’s right; Obama has banned engagement with al-Qaeda and Taliban members and ordered troops to retreat from fighting them.

Sounds like Obama is creating a safe haven for his fellows, just like he did with his terrorist friend Bill Ayers.

Which is why I’ll go out on a limb and predict that bin Laden and al-Zawahiri will be dead by Christmas. They are in a world of trouble and their time is almost up. They’ll try to flee and they will be killed.

Of course, when this happens, I suspect you guys will give the Obama Administration no credit. But Obama has finally gotten Pakistan to do what they should have done years ago.

Just watch.

And your comment conclusively affirms that you’re a liberal because only liberals have the unmitigated arrogance to announce who IS and IS NOT a legitimate member of the western religions they despise and misrepresent. [Nancy Pelosi informing the world that Catholicism only started frowning on abortion within the last 50 years--and getting appropriately bitch-slapped by the Vatican within the hour--springs to mind.] And for the record, the “STFU” was actually an act of Christian charity on my part. Jesus was about to smite your sorry ass with a couple of lightning bolts, but I asked him to spare you as long as you STFU about Christians.