I have not read any unbiased account of Jackson’s dealing with children

Another way of saying, “I refuse to believe the testimony of any child harmed by him, whether it was sexually or emotionally or whatever. I won’t believe it, I won’t believe it, I won’t believe it! I’m impervious to the evidence of their testimony.”

He was acquitted in a court of law where he had the chance to face his accusers.

So was O.J. Simpson. Newsflash: O.J. still did it. And Jackson still paid MORE THAN ONE of his accusers multi-million dollar settlements for them to change their stories.

His children loved him, and I choose to respect their memories of their father.

Translation: Maintaining illusions is more important than the harm done to Jackson’s victims, or believing the testimony some of them gave in a court of law. Or, as TL had put it: It’s the ‘loving’ part that one should rightly question.

Also, Jackson settled another case for (I believe) $10 million. Now, it’s entirely possible that Jackson was innocent here, the parents were golddiggers, etc., but the settlement clearly puts Jackson’s innoncence into question. If it was me, and I was innocent, the “victim” would be lucky to get $.10 from me.

As for the children, yes, it would be difficult to hear about the truth of their father. A truth that includes, at the very least, an unhealthy relationship with preteen boys,* and one that includes him risking the death of one of them with that balcony stunt. But I think it’s safe to assume that the children are not reading this blog. I would never tell them to their face what I thought about their father’s behavior.

*In case it needs to be spelled out. My criticism of Jackson should not be construed to mean that all adults who interact with children in a healthy manner are pedophiles, or border on it.

Do you really not see it? Do you really not see that, even if “nothing happened” and so very many people who testified about Jackson’s sexual contact with young boys were [somehow all just] crooks and liars, it was [still] all creepy, creepy, creepy? All about meeting Jackson’s needs. Nothing like a church, or a summer camp. Do you really not see that saying, “It was all innocent” and “You can’t prove anything happened”, is in no way a defense?

Tell you what, I’ll accept it that you’ve effectively answered, “no”.

Ashpenaz: Can’t handle it, just comes out with snark.

Typical!

I’m sure that Jackson’s kids appreciate all the effort people are making to destroy their memories of a loving father.

Yeah, mike. Pulling out of Afghanistan just as the Gitmo detainees get closer to freedom and a return to homicidal extremism. Now we have yet another confirmed former Gitmo detainee fighting alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. What is the number up to now of Gitmo graduates that have returned to their jihadi ways? 75? 80? Naturally, this story is on Foxnews.com for the moment, but nowhere to be seen on cnn.com or msnbc.com. Signing an executive order to close Gitmo was, after all, Obama’s FIRST act as CIC. And you don’t feel foolish typing the words “Thanks, Obama”?!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/07/gitmo-inmate-leading-fight-helmand/

Because it is thought by most that “gay” means “pedophile,” I don’t think that gays should accuse other men of being pedophiles.

That makes no sense to me. First, again this is what I said:

I always concede it’s possible that Jackson didn’t [molest anyone]… It’s still undeniable that Jackson was a drug-addled show-business attention-whore with a disturbed, narcissistic relationship to children.

So I don’t “accuse” Jackson of being a pedophile. Rather, I accuse him of having a disturbed, narcissistic relationship to children – because the facts strongly suggest that, for starters. But here is the more important point: Because, in fact, “gay” does not mean “pedophile”, there is absolutely no reason whatever for gays to be overly sensitive (i.e., sensitive beyond the requirements of facts and justice, which must always be honored) about accusing anyone of being a pedophile. Some pedophiles do happen to be gay (i.e., same-sex oriented). Many more are not (i.e., are heterosexually oriented). Hypersensitivity on that score is a position of weakness, i.e., of undue fear and guilt.

Imagine a single, middle aged man who decides to coach a Little League team…

A carefully constructed example that does not map to Jackson’s. Jackson’s would look more like this: Rather than defend himself, man pays 1994 kid $25 million, whereupon the kid instantly changes his story and develops “I can’t remember” syndrome. In 2005, when it comes to the attention of the police again with another kid, there is tons of evidence of creepy behavior at trial… but high-priced defense lawyers raise enough doubt about a key witness (the boy’s mother) that the jury can’t convict beyond a reasonable doubt, even though several of them wish they could have and say so afterward.

Did you see him put the alcohol in the baby’s bottle?

On the evidence of your previous defenses of Jackson, Ash, you wouldn’t believe PatriotMom if she had.

Just to bring some facts into this, here’s Wiki on Jackson’s second molestation case, the 2005 one:

In a Granada Television documentary entitled Living with Michael Jackson… The boy is shown holding hands with Jackson and resting his head on Jackson’s shoulder. At trial, the boy testified that Jackson initiated the hand-holding, but that he had put his head on Jackson’s shoulder because he was “really close to Jackson” and Jackson was his “best friend”. Both he and Jackson testified that they had slept in the same room, but not in the same bed. They also agreed that each had offered to sleep on the floor and let the other have the bed…

That, right there, is majorly creepy – even if it is true that they weren’t in the same bed (in that instance) and weren’t having sexual contact. It is an adult emotionally exploiting a child. The adult is conducting an ongoing emotionally intense relationship with a child *for the purpose of meeting the adult’s needs*. Ash: Are you really incapable of recognizing that as exploitation? Seriously?

Wiki continues:

Jackson stated in the documentary that many children, including Macaulay Culkin… had slept in Jackson’s bed…

Gavin Arvizo, the accuser, was born in December 1989. He was 13 years old in February and March 2003 when the alleged crimes were said to have been committed. In 2000, the accuser was diagnosed with cancer and had his spleen and a kidney removed. Jackson paid Gavin Arvizo’s medical expenses and accommodated transport for his chemotherapy treatment.[8] Soon thereafter, Jamie Masada,[13] the owner of a comedy club called Laugh Factory, fulfilled his wish to meet Jackson, and the boy often visited Neverland, also when Jackson was not home. In 2001, there were no visits but he and Jackson had many telephone conversations…

[discussing other of Jackson's possible molestations cases:]

* Jason Francia (born May 30, 1980) is the son of Jackson’s former maid Blanca Francia… Jason was a friend of Jackson in the period 1987–1991, when he was 7–10 years old. Jason claimed Jackson touched his crotch twice over his shorts, and once touched his testicles from under his shorts, on each of these three occasions for a few minutes during a tickling game. On the first two occasions he received $100 each for not telling his mother. In 1996 Jackson paid the family $2,000,000 to settle the case… [Jason's mother] did not see sexual activity, just an occasion where Jackson and Jason were lying together partly on, partly in a sleeping bag.

* Jordan Chandler, who allegedly was molested by Jackson in 1993 (see 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson), left the country to avoid testifying according to his uncle Ray Chandler. Former security guard Ralph Chacon says that at Neverland he saw Jackson putting Chandler’s penis in his mouth on one occasion, and touching Chandler’s crotch with his hand on another occasion…Former maid Adrian McManus says she once saw Jackson touch Chandler’s crotch over his clothes…

* Macaulay Culkin was a child actor. Phillip LeMarque stated that he once saw Jackson with his hand resting on the pants of Culkin when the two were playing video games. Adrian McManus said he only saw that once Jackson kissed Culkin on his cheek, and had his hand “kind of by his leg, kind of on his rear end.” Culkin had not originally wished to testify but after the allegations made by LeMarque and McManus, he appeared as a defense witness… Culkin testified that he slept in Jackson’s bed several times between the ages of 10 and 14,[11] sometimes with other boys as well…

* Wade Robson confirmed that he had slept in the same bed with Jackson… Robson’s mother, Joy, admitted in cross-examination that her son went missing for three days with Jackson, causing the police to get involved…

* Brett Barnes slept in the same room as Jackson for a year according to the testimony of Barnes’ sister, Karlee…

Note Macauley Culkin’s in particular. He called the molestation charges against Jackson “absurd”, yet his testimony confirmed that he and several other boys certainly did sleep in Jackson’s bed, many times, as part of ongoing emotional relationships (I won’t call them “friendships”, because they were clearly in Jackson’s interest far more than the boys’).

Ash – Do you really not see it? Do you really not see that, even if “nothing happened” and so very many people who testified about Jackson’s sexual contact with young boys were crooks and liars, it was all creepy, creepy, creepy? All about meeting Jackson’s needs. Nothing like a church, or a summer camp. Do you really not see that saying, “It was all innocent” and “You can’t prove anything happened”, is in no way a defense?

I say again: The grownup Jackson was a drug-addled show-business narcissist and creepy attention whore who, *at a bare minimum*, emotionally exploited children for his own needs.

I believe the OP has to do with perspective, with or without allegations of pedophilia. I’m not willing to go as far as Peter King and some in this thread, but that a pop star willingly — even teasingly — implied as much to a sickeningly fascinated media should help sober a few of us. I don’t question a parent making a seemingly opportunistic allegation so much as I question the same parent for allowing their child to be put in a position that gives the allegation credibility. If such lawsuits were shakedowns (something I find difficult to entirely believe), Michael Jackson should reasonably have paid a steep price for encouraging them. If there was/is truth behind them, he did not pay nearly enough.

I agree, it’s our war.

Julie,

Well hells, you’ve just depressed me. Molly’s gone, Wendy Richard died in Febuary (Always thought she was my kind of girl) John Inman died in 2007…

Hells.