Reread my post, Ashpenaz. I’ll highlight the part below that answers that question in no uncertain terms.

So yes, I still have compassion for this young adult, disdain for those who helped drag this young adult into the wrong path (because, as adults, they are responsible for their actions too, even though they may have had a similar path as the young adult), disdain for the parents (because again, they should have been responsible adults).

In case that is still not clear, the answer to your question is No.

In the 1990s, at great cost to him personally, Andrew spoke his mind.

Who among us on this blog – of the regulars who may hold an unpopular viewpoint or principle and who have spoken and practiced it with integrity – cannot say the same? You seem to be praising Sullivan for having once done only what every normal, decent, human being should do all the time… and what Sullivan has notably failed to do these last few years, as he has steadily caved in to the views of his Gay Left sex partner(s).

For the record: while I did appreciate Sullivan’s writing before he went insane on 2/24/04, (and had even backed up my appreciation with donations to him); I cannot say that he ever inspired me to speak my mind. It was other things and other people who did, including (but not limited to) my own sense of personal honor. As gay-moderate authors go, Bruce Bawer was someone I read much more than I ever read Sullivan.

compassion: n. Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.

There is nothing “compassionate” about coddling an adult or pretending that that adult at 20, 30, 40, 50 years old isn’t 100% responsible for his or her choices (her voluntary / un-coerced actions). Conversely, there is nothing mean about telling that adult the truth that she is responsible. To the contrary: It is liberating. It means she has the power to change (the power goes with the responsibility). Telling that truth is compassionate. It’s good news. Coddling people – including listening or granting authority to their fairy tales that they somehow aren’t responsible for the choices – is, in the long run, heartless and exploitative. Demanding that oneself or others be coddled, in the name of alleged “compassion” or Christianity or whatever else, is immature and twisted.

Sidebar: If anyone out there is struggling with drugs or other forms of addiction, consider this approach as opposed to 12-Step programs: http://www.rational.org

unless any of these wolves are able to physically coerce you, then you cannot be a victim unless you allow yourself to be.

Give the man a prize.

In other words, your superior judgment allowed you not to experience these negative things, and you are therefore not required to have compassion on those who did not have the same judgment and suffered as a result.

In other words, Ash, if Pat or I or TL or TGC tell you the truth that (barring criminal fraud and physical coercion) you are, in fact, *responsible* for your own life and for developing and practicing your own good judgment: then you don’t want to hear it and it is time for you to try to shut the person up by accusing them of lacking what you call “compassion”. How does that work out for you, Ash? Do you notice that it works on some people? I imagine it must work some of the time, or with some people, or you wouldn’t try it.

If a young confused gay man is led into drugs and STDs, it’s entirely his own fault.

Ash, it is fascinating how, in some threads, you are so very concerned with avoiding any hint of “gays are sexual predators” stereotype that you will deny obvious truths – like the truth that Michael Jackson was a predator on under-age children, emotionally if not sexually – and yet… in other threads, like this thread, here you are merrily spreading a “gays are sexual predators” meme.

To answer your point more directly: If the young *man* in question is barely over 18, then no: it is not his fault “entirely”. If his confusion arises either because he was given bad guidance by depraved individuals, *and/or*, unhelpful or insufficient guidance by his parents, church, school counselors, etc. when he was their responsibility, then it is partly or *secondarily* those individuals’ fault as well. And we must all guard against depraved individuals and not hesitate to condemn them, to keep them away from kids, to prosecute them where they have employed force or fraud, etc.

Now fast forward to when the guy is 30 or 40 or 50 (Michael Jackson’s age during his acts of predation, btw). At that point, if the man is still ‘confused’ and into drugs or getting new STDs, then yes it is entirely his fault because, by such an age, he has chosen his life…. or at the very least, he *ought* to have chosen it. He ought to have exercised his brain, by that point.

Wow–underneath that incisive thinking of yours lies a lack of compassion on the order of Lady Macbeth.

That is an attack on Pat which he totally does not deserve, Ash. As such, it betrays the insecurity of your position. And dare I remind you of your professions of Christianity, earlier in this thread?

So, what Mark Foley does is OK?

This blog, and many commentors on it including myself, has repeatedly condemned Mark Foley (while perhaps also noting that Gerry Studds, Barney Frank, etc., deserve even greater condemnation since they did more and worse). Do a search.

You may not have spent a lot of time in the darker realms of the gay community, but you certainly display their indifferent narcissism.

Yikes, I missed that. I don’t know what to tell you. I may be a lot of things, but a narcissist is not one of them. And, no, I haven’t spent a lot of time in the darker realms of the gay community. Why would I want to do that?

But getting back to your young adult example. I’ve stated that I have compassion for this person. And there are other people who are at fault for this. Got all that. But I would also like this person to leave the darker realms. Simply blaming others, playing the victim, being “right” while still being miserable and continuing down the wrong path isn’t going to do it. This young man will have a better shot if he starts to take responsibility despite all the crap he had to endure. I don’t see how that is being a narcissist.

I made a point of distinguishing young adult males from older males, and even suggested ages. But since you are pushing it, yes, an 18 year old is responsible for his actions. But I do sympathize more, and have compassion for such a person, especially if he was brought up by parents and/or church who excoriated, neglected him, etc., for being gay. It’s no surprise when such a person, even as a young adult makes wrong decisions. But again, at some point, an adult has to recognize himself that he is responsible. Continuing to blame others (even if the blame is justified) is not going to help him, except giving himself an excuse for continuing his miserable life. So yes, I still have compassion for this young adult, disdain for those who helped drag this young adult into the wrong path (because, as adults, they are responsible for their actions too, even though they may have had a similar path as the young adult), disdain for the parents (because again, they should have been responsible adults). I advocate measures that encourage parents to treat their gay children in the same positive manner that we should be treating their straight children, so they have about the same chances of thriving.

But I was concentrating more on older adults. In fact, I was responding to your criticisms of the gay community. I don’t disagree with it, just the way you are responding to it. Correct me if I’m wrong. You have said in the past that gays in “flyover” states are nicer (I forgot the exact word you used) than the ones living in coastal states. I’ve stated that I haven’t experienced the ugly side of the gay community that you perceive. Again, I’m not saying it’s not there, but I found plenty of gay persons who don’t fit your world view of the gay community. So if that’s the case in a coastal state, how is it that you haven’t been able to find suitable gay persons where you live?

You may not have spent a lot of time in the darker realms of the gay community, but you certainly display their indifferent narcissism.

This is completely out of line Ashpenaz. No one said that such souls are not worthy of compassion and pity; only you have interjected this pathetic argument, for what reason I cannot imagine.

“If a young confused gay man is led into drugs and STDs” then yes, it is absolutely his own fault for not exercising the brain that God has given him for making intelligent decisions. Being gay does not mean that you have to indulge in such stupidity; you of all people should understand this, judging from the comments you have made above.

But does this mean that everyone should spit on this hypothetical young man, and curse him for making terrible decisions? No, it does not. Such a human being, confused and frightened, deserves compassion and pity and support. The only one who has suggested that he does not is you.

I have nothing else to say on the matter, except that the only narcissist I see here is you. You castigate everyone else for your problems, and hold yourself up as a put-upon soul when your sorrows are a direct result of your own insecurities. Go to your church for support; stop waving your weaknesses and vulnerabilities in front of us, expecting us to be impressed.

You may not have spent a lot of time in the darker realms of the gay community, but you certainly display their indifferent narcissism.

Ashpenaz, I can only tell you where I came from. All it took was a little change in ‘tude; accepting what is, playing the cards I was dealt, and making the best of it; without changing my core values. Yes, I have a partner now and happy. But even before I was partnered, things were pretty good. And God forbid, if something should make me single again, I will do just fine again. Rosy? Well, some times are better than others. Kind of like with most people.

The biggest thing that prevents one from pursuing their dreams is oneself. That includes blaming circumstances on other people and/or communities. Obviously, if one is a teen, or even a young adult, that is a different story. But, as I mentioned above, at some point, say at 21 or even 25, you have to take responsiblity for your actions, stop blaming it on other things, and be responsible for your own happiness and well-being.

There are, in fact, parts of the gay community which are like packs of wolves wanting to prey on the innocent and then discard the bones.

I guess I just haven’t seen this ugly side of the gay community. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but perhaps since I have always made a conscious effort to not be involved with that garbage, it never became an issue. Sure, I have encountered some not too savory persons. These include persons who think they are “above” others and feel entitled to something that others should have to beg for. And also persons that p&ss on your boots and either tell you that it’s raining or insisting you’re p&ssing on their boots, and then p&ss on your boots again. When I’m not thinking how pathetic it is, it gives me a good laugh.

Anyway, unless any of these wolves are able to physically coerce you, then you cannot be a victim unless you allow yourself to be.

It’s good to remember that occasionally so you don’t get caught up in it.

It seems like this should be automatic. Almost like saying it’s good to remember your name, the sky is blue, or that 2+2=4.

You can’t just send a questioning young person to the next Pride rally and hope he turns out OK–you have to help him see that not every gay has his best interests at heart.

There are bad men (and women) out there. Most parents teach their straight daughters to be careful with the young men they date. Because they, all too often, care about only their own interests. It seems like the same can and should be done by parents for their gay sons.

Thanks, Corwin. I am aware that my numbers are on the low side compared to most, not just gay people. I’m just pointing out that we don’t all uphold the stereotypes. And some people have done the sowing wild oats thing (while, hopefully protecting themselves and others), and come to realize that it’s not the best thing and/or right thing to do. Not condoning any promiscuity, but it’s better to end a behavior that’s bad than to continue it, and move on to something much better.

There are still two irreconcilable sides in the gay world–the Stonewall free-love liberationists, and the normie-breederlover-traditionalists. You can’t be a member of both groups.

That, or you can grab your sack and declare that you’re not going to participate and walk out.

Exactly. Cut the drama; get on with a life of one’s own.

Ashpenaz, the gay community was never a monolith, and I don’t think Dan was suggesting that. Sure, some voices are louder than others, and that’s still the case today. But there are and were always people who were not into the drug scene. Also, there are people who either never were promiscuous, or were for a period and gave that up. And persons, who when having sex, were responsible in minimizing the chances of catching or spreading STDs. All of us posting thus far apparently belong to this group.

I live in a coastal state, and I just never experienced this monolithic gay community. Sure, there are those who did the drugs, multiple partners, etc., things. But it was always easy to find those who didn’t. And many of these people are, you’ll never believe it, were lefties. I could see at 18 succumbing to peer pressure, perhaps. But at some point, you have to become an adult and stand up for your principles. I had a couple of guys at bars who insisted they were going to bed me that night, one even followed me to a subway stop (and he was megacute), but I didn’t let it happen. I don’t recall ever being offered drugs by a gay person. When I did by a couple of straight persons, I followed Nancy Reagan’s advice, even when I was younger and much more naive. Again, it was simple.

I think the solution is similar to what you found in the Christian community, which is also not a monolith. You found a congregation that was accepting of you as a gay person. And there are plenty of gay people that, while perhaps not agreeing with all of your stances, will at least accept your principles.

Back to Dan’s point, I think he was referring more to the politics than personal behavior. I don’t know how much credit Sullivan should get for challenging gay orthodoxy, but I’m glad to see it’s happening more and more today. And not just from the right, but from the left as well.

That, or you can grab your sack and declare that you’re not going to participate and walk out. I used to hook up with guys from the net and then realized there was never going to be anything meaningul and quit doing it. I’ve left parties when the hooka came out, even when I was told I was being an asshole. Walked away from a cute guy who had my dick in his mouth once. Made a guy throw a dime bag out of my truck or he was walking his happy ass back to north Houston.

Don’t know what most drugs even look like except from TV. Not even entirely sure what weed smells like. I have no problems going to bars either. You just have to decide what you want and don’t want and stick to your decisions no matter what.