Perhaps you are in a tax bracket in which you think you wont pay for it. In which case, you are just using the government to steal from your fellow citizens to pay for your health care, which makes you little more than a petty thief.

That deserves to be underlined.

if you honestly believe, contrary to the CBO’s own report, every other reputable organizations estimates, and contrary to all historical evidence of government programs, that government will somehow make health care more affordable, then you are simply living in universe that has no connection to reality.

Oh, yeah. That, too.

Ash has an affordable option for health care. He could quit his two part time jobs, and go find one that has health care beenfits. Though the spending by the government limits that option.

I want government to provide an affordable option for health care (the way it does for schools, military, roads, food inspection, etc.)

Then you want government to provide an “affordable option” and yet you list a bunch of services where government has a virtual monopoly. So much for options.

The government holds a monopoly on military, on roads, on food inspection, and a virtual monopoly on schools since very few Americans can afford to pay for both public schools through their taxes AND pay for their children to go to public schools.

Which is precisely what will happen to health care with a “public option”.

You want government to take your money that you theoretically spend on health care now (if you pay for your own) and spend it on health care FOR YOU while driving up the costs (as the CBO chief said Democrats plan will do) and driving down the quality of care and rationing care.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that because the bills will no longer come to you, that somehow makes it “affordable”

Perhaps you are in a tax bracket in which you think you wont pay for it. In which case, you are just using the government to steal from your fellow citizens to pay for your health care, which makes you little more than a petty thief.

Otherwise, if you honestly believe, contrary to the CBO’s own report, every other reputable organizations estimates, and contrary to all historical evidence of government programs, that government will somehow make health care more affordable, then you are simply living in universe that has no connection to reality.

I don’t think I can go into the details of Fed benefits, but I can say they are very generous, even if the fed employees don’t think so.

How to make anyone a small gov’t conservative: Make them take Fed calls for a week.

but please ‘pay no attention to the man behind the curtain’.

and AE. . . most conservative Republicans inside the Beltway don’t lie. . .in the classic GP (BRUCE) response. . .BWAHHHHHHHHHH!

I didn’t say that.

I said President Bush and Vice President Cheney didn’t among many others, most of whom are conservatives.

Yes, lots of politicians lie. Probably most of them. Definitely most Democrats. (those who are trying to take power from you naturally more likely to lie than those who are trying to return power to you and/or prevent the further erosion of your liberty) But it is ignorant and lazy to claim they all do.

When you read about the history of Israel and things like the Jubilee year (which Jesus proclaimed), it’s all about government intervention. All of God’s prophets go to the kings and demand the kings treat the poor better.

Again I am struck by the immaturity of that.

1) Do you really want to go back to 7th-century BC society and economics?

2) Show me a society ruled by a king, and I’ll show you a society that *is not free*. If the king has enslaved everybody, then of course they would have to turn to him to get the poor treated better. Of course. But that’s the kind of society on your mind, isn’t it, Ash? You don’t ‘get’ freedom, or at least not economic freedom: a society based on people’s free and un-coerced actions. You want government to be your Daddy, basically enslaving others or looting their life’s work in order to provide services for you. (Of course you’d never call it that.)

I agree that private innovation is more prolific than public. Though it certainly is not exclusive to private enterprise. How much research happening at universities is to some degree funded by our government? It might be good to keep some government funding just because we are seeing so much competition from foreign research labs.

To another point, you said: “Still, nobody will answer why the government health care workers (Fed employees, Tricare) contract with Private insurance to save money. Hells, the state of MI just put their inmates on private insurance to save money.”

I am curious to know what options are available to gov’t health care workers, and how the plans compare to each other.

Again, while the choice between ILC and the Pope does not cover all possible options, I think this letter by the Pope sets out the goals of government in the way I’ve been trying to express in my posts. So, if you won’t listen to me, you might at least read the Pope’s letter.

Nationalized health care, to left, is a status symbol. They want it in the USA because Britain and Canada have it

V, that’s an interesting hypothesis. Not to beat my earlier horse to death, but I chalk it up to the supporters’ desire to live as perpetual children, always having Daddy take care of them no matter how oppressive and bad a job he does. I think that is what makes them feel special, or internally gives them a sense of status. I fear that such people may be born fascists or, as Benjamin Franklin might put it, people born to trade liberty for security, deserving neither. When one of them tries to support national-socialized health care with an argument from authority – in this thread, a person who claims to be conservative arguing for national-socialized health care on the Pope’s alleged authority in such matters – I say to myself, “But of course.”

So innovations come from Military research and trickle down to civilian use. Wow. so government spending for one of the defined duties of the federal government reaps benefits. Pretty clever those founding fathers…

I think the most recent ‘public vs. private’ argument was the X-plane thing.

I do want to point out, ALL politicians lie. Some of those lies are needed, some aren’t.

NDT my point is that through all the DOD R&D monetary incentives there were many and will be ongoing develpments and innovative ‘products’ passed onto americans. or the wealth for KBR-Halliburton.

but you certainly get your panties into a twist quite frequently.

and AE. . . most conservative Republicans inside the Beltway don’t lie. . .in the classic GP (BRUCE) response. . .BWAHHHHHHHHHH!

Nationalized health care, to the left, is a status symbol. They want it in the USA because Britain and Canada have it, and they want to have it, too. Like the suburban soccer mom who insists she needs a new Range Rover when a Saturn Vue would be perfectly adequate. It isn’t about what’s best for the people or the economy, it’s about fitting in with the herd. Because it’s much easier to just go along with the herd than to explain why you do things differently.

The limit of the ability of the leftist to defend nationalized health care is reached at “because Republicans don’t want it.” The entirety of Democratic thought is to advocate the opposite of what Republicans want; no explanation required.

Are those the only two options, Ashpenaz?

And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

Luke 18:22 – 24

I don’t know, NDT. Wasn’t the answer to that question something like, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven.

Sounds like for a devout follower at the time, giving away one’s wealth (with the penalty being not entering heaven at death) was even more coercive than the government today tries to be.

Don’t try to hide behind the Pope’s so-called authority, or mine or anyone’s, for that matter.

Amen to that, ILC. Sometimes (well, actually, all the time) we have to be responsible for all our decisions and choices.

The English inovation came from adult stem cells, which bolsters the arguement against fetal stem cells, but that’s off topic.

Still, private innovation puts us way ahead of public funded there. Look at the pharmasutical research, companies like Merrick, MRIs, CT scans, etc etc. Look at the abundance of private hospitals in the US.

Still, nobody will answer why the government health care workers (Fed employees, Tricare) contract with Private insurance to save money. Hells, the state of MI just put their inmates on private insurance to save money.

And Ashpenaz, you seem to believe that the Divine wants everyone else to take care of your health care. Why not take steps to use what the Divine gave you? Or to use another proverb. “G_d helps those, who help themselves.”