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It’s the Liberty, Stupid

Mark Steyn at NRO hits the health care nail squarely on the head in a piece published yesterday. What I’ve been screaming since the debate began (and goes along great with my New Independence Movement concept) he has a much better way of saying calmly and to great effect: That we concede the noble high-ground if we allow the debate to be about anything other than liberty and responsibility. I remember from history class that this Nation fought a war for that once. From Steyn:

How did the health-care debate decay to the point where we think it entirely natural for the central government to fix a collective figure for what 300 million freeborn citizens ought to be spending on something as basic to individual liberty as their own bodies?

Too much in this great piece for me to cut-and-paste the good stuff. You MUST read the whole thing.

-Nick (ColoradoPatriot, from HQ)

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25 Comments

  1. Hear, hear!

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 2, 2009 @ 11:30 pm - August 2, 2009

  2. Excellent article.

    Comment by Duffy - Native Intelligence — August 3, 2009 @ 1:01 am - August 3, 2009

  3. Say Duffy, how’s that State-run health care on the reservations? Seems like that would be a good article or blog post.

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — August 3, 2009 @ 5:41 am - August 3, 2009

  4. Well, we allow the government to run something basic to our personal liberty when we have public schools. Or a military. Or food inspection. Or highways. Or etc. Why do gays depend on government-run law enforcement to protect them from violence? Why don’t we just disband the police and fire departments and allow everyone to hire their own security?

    Comment by Ashpenaz — August 3, 2009 @ 10:50 am - August 3, 2009

  5. “liberty and responsibility”

    Tell that to the guy who just lost his job, has preconditions, can’t get insurance and has a family.
    Or the woman whose husband is dead, she is 61 has MS and can’t get insured.
    Or the guy who gets cancer and didn’t have insurance becuase he was self employed and it was too expensive.
    Or the guy whose company cut his benifits to save money
    Or the gal whose company switched to a new provider and that provider said all her conditions were preexisting.
    The fact is our system is fine (but expensive) if you are not sick. Once you are sick, its one of the worst in the world.

    So your idealism and sloganeering sounds nice and cheery. But reality says that our system is broken, and it has to change.

    Comment by gillie — August 3, 2009 @ 11:02 am - August 3, 2009

  6. “Tell that to the guy who just lost his job, has preconditions, can’t get insurance and has a family.”

    COBRA, HIPPA

    “Or the woman whose husband is dead, she is 61 has MS and can’t get insured.”

    Surviving spouce, COBRA, HIPPA

    “Or the guy who gets cancer and didn’t have insurance becuase he was self employed and it was too expensive.”

    He chose to spend money on other things. This is called consequence of one’s actions. Plus if he survives the cancer, hospitals have these neat things called payment plans.

    Or the guy whose company cut his benifits to save money.

    Individual plans.

    “Or the gal whose company switched to a new provider and that provider said all her conditions were preexisting.”

    Can’t happen. Wow, you really don’t know the industry do you?

    “The fact is our system is fine (but expensive) if you are not sick. Once you are sick, its one of the worst in the world.”

    Sites? Sources? Like here for example, showing the advantages of the US Health Care system.

    Come on gillie, I can rip you apart without breaking a sweat on this topic all day.

    Comment by The Livewire — August 3, 2009 @ 11:26 am - August 3, 2009

  7. For each of ghillie’s examples, one can point directly to government intervention.

    Tell me, ghilster. If the liberals have their way, can we buy car insurance after we have accidents?

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — August 3, 2009 @ 12:37 pm - August 3, 2009

  8. Livewire, you seem to be totally ignorant of the costs of health care and why it is a problem, why people cant afford the insurance and why individually plans are fine if you are healthy but terrible if you are not.

    see below:
    http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
    50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses
    premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers’ earnings since 1999.
    25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings
    A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses
    In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care

    and I could go on and on and on

    “can’t happen”
    HIPPA:
    Does not guarantee that any conditions you now have (or have had in the past) are covered by your new employer’s health plan; and
    Does not prohibit an employer from imposing a preexisting condition exclusion period if you have been treated for a condition during the past 6 months.
    http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_hipaa.html

    finially:
    COBRA?!?!?! you think that is an option for long term care? Have you seen how much that costs?!?!?

    yow do a google search on these topics before posting…it might save you embarrassment.

    Comment by gillie — August 3, 2009 @ 1:07 pm - August 3, 2009

  9. And watch as we demolish the troll boy gillie in one fell swoop.

    50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses

    So gillie’s bankruptcy can be blamed on the fact that he had a $50 charge at the doc-in-the-box, not on the fact that he bought too much house and a mortgage he couldn’t afford. According to gillie and his leftist sources, bankruptcies have nothing to do with spending choices and everything to do with health care costs. It’s not gillie’s fault his credit rating went down because he spent wastefully, it’s the health insurance company’s fault.

    Lies.

    premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers’ earnings since 1999.

    Driven primarily by continuous government mandates that employers cover more and more conditions. Lying liberals like gillie demand that employers pay for more coverage, then use that to whine about how health care costs are going up.

    COBRA?!?!?! you think that is an option for long term care? Have you seen how much that costs?!?!?

    It costs exactly the same amount as does employer-provided health care, with at maximum a 2% administrative charge. That’s written into the law. Haven’t you read that, moron gillie?

    Now, here’s the really funny one: moron boy gillie tried a goalpost move and fell flat on his pathetic little face.

    Before, gillie screamed this:

    “Or the gal whose company switched to a new provider and that provider said all her conditions were preexisting.”

    But then, when Livewire humiliated the pathetic liberal gillie, he screamed this:

    Does not guarantee that any conditions you now have (or have had in the past) are covered by your new employer’s health plan

    His example DID NOT CHANGE EMPLOYERS. Gillie cited a section of the law that has nothing to do with the situation he mentioned.

    Weren’t you aware of that, gillie? Perhaps you should read before you cite things; then you won’t be so easily embarrassed and humiliated.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — August 3, 2009 @ 1:49 pm - August 3, 2009

  10. gillie, you’d be funny if you weren’t so wrong.

    1) You forget what I do for a living. I know these regulations and rules much better than you can imagine.

    2) From your own link: “One of the most important protections under HIPAA is that it helps those with preexisting conditions get health coverage. In the past, some employers’ group health plans limited, or even denied, coverage if a new employee had such a condition before enrolling in the plan. Under HIPAA, that is not allowed. If the plan generally provides coverage but denies benefits to you because you had a condition before your coverage began, then HIPAA applies. ”

    Now I know expecting you to read a link you give is like expecting Arlen Spector to read legislation he’s voting on, but still, that was funny.

    3) Your example of “just lost his job” is what HIPAA, individual plans and COBRA are for. I can get a quote on a catastrophic plan for $127 a month for me. Now it’s true that under President Obama, unemployment is at 10%+ in Ohio, but then again, this is the guy who wants Government to manage health care. I drop cable, end my RPG subscriptions and I cover this easily.

    NCHC is lobbying for national health care. Not the most unbiased souce. They site documents a 2005 study, but don’t link to it to define what ‘partly’ is.

    Now go away, or I will taunt you a second time.

    Comment by The Livewire — August 3, 2009 @ 1:51 pm - August 3, 2009

  11. Why do the same people who want the government out of the bedroom and out of the womb seem so eager to invite the government into the doctor’s office, the OR, and into difficult end of life decisions? Steyn is on point.

    gillie – if some people fall through the cracks then we can look at that issue but it’s not worth giving up basic liberty. The government cannot make medical care less expensive; it can simply choose nit to pay for it.

    Comment by SoCalRobert — August 3, 2009 @ 3:01 pm - August 3, 2009

  12. So let me get this straight.
    Obama lies about not taxing the middle class.
    He lied about the tax credit for businesses who hired ppl.
    He lied about saving GM and Chrylser from bankrupcy.
    He lied about white cops being stupid.
    He lied about unemployment not exceeding 8%.
    He lied about no pork or earmarks in the pork stimulus bill.
    He lied about not allowing lobbyiing in his administration.
    He lied about getting us out of Iraq.
    He lied aout closing CLUB GITMO.
    He lied about eliminating domestic survellience.

    But gillie believes him on the health care ins nirvanna!
    As I’ve said, the pubic education system gives us
    dopes, dummies, boobs, morons, creaps, tax cheats and crooks.
    But they drink the kool aide and don’t think for themselves.

    Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — August 3, 2009 @ 3:57 pm - August 3, 2009

  13. Did you hear the new taxation stats?
    The richest 1% pay 41% of all taxes.
    The richest 5% pay 60% of the taxes.
    The richest 10% pay 71% of all taxes.

    You got to admit, we need to find these people, and throw a huge
    THANK YOU party for them. Ask them to hang in there and not leave America for the next 3.5 years. We could invite them to some tea parties and fet them and thank them for providing for 45% of Americans who pay NO, INCOME TAXES, NONE!
    Stunning numbers. And these are the people who are villified by the leftists, liberal Democrats?

    Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — August 3, 2009 @ 4:01 pm - August 3, 2009

  14. NDT
    “moron boy gillie” ???
    Moron boy? Are you dubbing me a superhero of the morons? I am just not sure about that. But points for originality! 🙂

    #11 but it wil cut costs. Hell even George WIll says so:
    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/george-f-will-admits-public-option-will.html

    Comment by gillie — August 3, 2009 @ 4:20 pm - August 3, 2009

  15. #10 –
    1st I have no idea what you do for a living, is it working at mortuary? It seems it might be if you think COBRA, HIPAA or individually funded plans are adequate for a person who is sick/has health problems. (or maybe you work for a company that repossess homes so you try to push people into financial disaster.)

    2nd – Of course Hippa helps (why wouldn’t its an act of congress) but it does not guarantee preexisting coverage as my link states. It is full of loopholes that allow the insurance company to deny claims (like the 6month loophole I mentioned). If my memory is correct, this bill originally said that anyone who road a motorcycle could be denied coverage!!!

    If you deny this you are either delusional or so boxed in you have to start denying reality

    3rd – Do you know any person who has medical problems who can survive with catastrophic coverage only? No way. That is why Cobra and individually funded plans are drastically inadequate. (and why a public option is necessary) Of course, if your healthy you have no problems getting / paying for / or not having health insurance. Its when you sick!

    (Further I am not sure how you can criticize me for using NCHC as a source when cite the NCPA!)

    Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

    Comment by gillie — August 3, 2009 @ 4:32 pm - August 3, 2009

  16. Next crisis…..
    the automobile bubble.
    With the government forcing new car buyers into the market who couldn’t afford or didn’t need new cars…..when will the automobile bubble burst.
    How many of these new cash for clunker cars will be abandoned a year from now by people who couldn’t afford to make the payments or buy the gasoline for the cars?
    These polititians and liberal Democrat boobs never learn.

    a reminder…”I will not raise your taxes one single dime, not one dime….”BHO

    Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — August 3, 2009 @ 6:42 pm - August 3, 2009

  17. but it wil cut costs. Hell even George WIll says so:

    Um, no; what George Will says in that excerpt is that private companies cannot compete with an entity that doesn’t have to pay the full costs of providing services. Did you read the actual article? It makes it clear that the costs won’t go away; they’ll just be paid for from taxes that the recipients won’t pay.

    It’s all about Barack Obama making more people dependent on government, as Will makes clear in the article. For people like you who already are, gillie, that’s no surprise.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — August 3, 2009 @ 7:07 pm - August 3, 2009

  18. #11 but it wil cut costs. Hell even George WIll says so:

    LOL….next time read the real article, and then you would see that Will makes it clear that the “cost reduction” comes from cost shifting.

    Welfare liberals like at 538 and gillie want government health care because they’re too lazy to work and pay for it themselves; they want others to pay for it for them. Or they’re like the Obamas themselves, who don’t want to take care of their children and want to waste money on expensive clothes and purses instead.

    Why does Barack Obama support government dependency?

    Meanwhile, this was hilarious:

    seems it might be if you think COBRA, HIPAA or individually funded plans are adequate for a person who is sick/has health problems.

    COBRA is merely continuation of your group coverage. Why is it suddenly “inadequate” when you’re in the same plan in which you were when you were employed?

    Answer: Because you have to pay for it. Gillie doesn’t want to have to work or pay for his own health insurance; he wants others to pay for it for him because he’s a lazy parasite, just like his Barack Obama.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — August 3, 2009 @ 7:21 pm - August 3, 2009

  19. And again, gillie can’t read HIPPA, and apparently doesn’t know what a pre-existing condition is.

    Strangely enough, now that his ‘can’t afford insurance’ is debunked, he moved the goal posts saying “Who can afford to live with catastrophic coverage.”

    Answer, me. I have a catastrophic plan. So again, gillie moves the goal posts and comes up short. Must play for the Detroit Lions.

    And the law is written, it’s not a loophole when it’s designed that way.

    It also only allows for the specific pre-existing condition to not be covered.

    gillie (again) quotes an article that contradicts his point, but doesn’t let that slow him down.

    Please keep throwing the softballs. I need the batting practice.

    Comment by The_Livewire — August 3, 2009 @ 7:41 pm - August 3, 2009

  20. Once again, I think some are missing the point. The entire nation (Left and Right) seems to be arguing the issue from the wrong perspective, that of: How Can The Government Fix This?

    I’d like to know if gillie, or anybody else who supports the Stalinization of health care, can answer this question:

    In what way does the current plan from the Left (or any part of it whatsoever) increase individual liberty?

    Comment by ColoradoPatriot — August 3, 2009 @ 8:05 pm - August 3, 2009

  21. #17: Thanks, NDT… I, too, read the Will column and gillie was (willingly) mislead by the blogger he cited.

    Comment by SoCalRobert — August 3, 2009 @ 8:36 pm - August 3, 2009

  22. […] It’s the Liberty, Stupid […]

    Pingback by GayPatriot » On GITMO, Once Again, We’re Not Even Discussing Reality — August 3, 2009 @ 8:41 pm - August 3, 2009

  23. It doesn’t.

    All the ‘reforms’ do is strip the liberty from the doctors/providers/hospitals to charge what they feel is a fair price for services rendered and force them to accept the government’s wage controls.

    It destroys the liberty of people to purchase a product they want (insurance) from insurance companies at a fair price.

    It destroys the profit motive, stiffling liberty to create and innovate.

    Comment by The Livewire — August 4, 2009 @ 6:49 am - August 4, 2009

  24. Well, we allow the government to run something basic to our personal liberty when we have public schools. Or a military. Or food inspection. Or highways. Or etc. Why do gays depend on government-run law enforcement to protect them from violence? Why don’t we just disband the police and fire departments and allow everyone to hire their own security?

    Ash, what you’ve stated above is the nonsense of a child, and something I’ve answered for you before. I guess you don’t learn, so I will make this answer briefer. The purpose of government is to banish physical force (and its cousin, fraud) from ordinary human relations. The government has to have a territorial monopoly on the use of force to do that. So police, courts and military, insofar as they protect liberty and apply the rule of law impartially, are legitimate functions of government. But denying the liberty of otherwise-peaceful private citizens is not a legitimate function of government. Competing with private enterprises, possibly bankrupting them and driving them out of business, is not a legitimate function of government. Your comment is an argument for totalitarian socialism, like they have in Cuba or North Korea, and I would advise to move to one of those places if that is the system you prefer.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 4, 2009 @ 1:56 pm - August 4, 2009

  25. No more softballs from gillie?

    Batting Practice must be over.

    Comment by The_Livewire — August 4, 2009 @ 8:42 pm - August 4, 2009

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