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Is The United States In a “Low Grade” Civil War?

It is a chilling question and one that has been troubling me for about two weeks.  I read the “low grade civil war” phrase as a declarative statement from a commenter on a news story about the Congressional Town Hall meetings and it has been rattling in my brain ever since.

I’ve been wanting to post about this question and today seemed like the right time since now I’m not the only one worried about this question.  In today’s Washington Times, actor/activist Jon Voight makes this statement:

“There’s a real question at stake now. Is President Obama creating a civil war in our own country?” Mr. Voight tells Inside the Beltway.

“We are witnessing a slow, steady takeover of our true freedoms. We are becoming a socialist nation, and whoever can’t see this is probably hoping it isn’t true. If we permit Mr. Obama to take over all our industries, if we permit him to raise our taxes to support unconstitutional causes, then we will be in default. This great America will become a paralyzed nation.”

“Do not let the Obama administration fool you with all their cunning Alinsky methods. And if you don’t know what that method is, I implore you to get the book ‘Rules for Radicals,’ by Saul Alinsky . Mr. Obama is very well trained in these methods.”

Now this is old news to anyone who really studied Obama’s past.  And I’m not as concerned about this kind of argument, nor the “birthers” distraction.

Here are my real fears about the United States heading into a civil war:

  1. There is a clear distinction between those who want a more authoritarian/socialist nation versus those who want to preserve the capitalist/democratic America we live in.
  2. There is a clear distinction between those who understand the principles and guidance and importance of the representative legislative process versus those who hide behind the Constitution as an excuse to create laws from the bench.
  3. There is a clear distinction between those who favor strong national security vs. those who want a borderless, global government.
  4. There is a clear distinction between those who hold US Constitutional principles dear (1st, 2nd, 10th Amendments in particular) and those who are ignorant or want to subvert those principles.
  5. There is a clear distinction between those who want to maintain a sensible fiscal policy versus those statists in Washington who spend our tax money with reckless abandon.
  6. There is a clear distinction between those who see themselves as Americans first versus those who want to segregate themselves into communities and ignore the national identity.
  7. Despite his promises, surveys show that Americans have elected one of the most divisive Presidents since Richard Nixon.

These are serious issues that fundamentally challenge the formation of the Republic itself.  Don’t buy into the childish arguments that every criticism of the Federal Government is based in racism.  That is ignorant and simple-minded talk.

I hope I am wrong, but my perspective has been reinforced by my reading of a 1997 book called “The Fourth Turning”.  I’ll do a review later, but needless to say — it is a chilling book that talks about unmovable historical cycles.  We are in The Crisis period now, according to the authors.

I’m anxious for a vigorous and respectful discussion on my question posed here.  No Americans in 1773 knew there would be a Revolution; no Americans in 1857 knew there would be a bloody Civil War; no Americans in 1928 knew there would be a global Depression and a 2nd global war.

-Bruce (GayPatriot)

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89 Comments

  1. No Gene, the dream is not dead. The poll data that Bruce and others tout fits perfectly into the narrative I laid out. A deeply unpolular party, booted from office, with no new ideas, resorts to whipping up hatred and derangement against the president as their only hope to rally their own supporters.

    They have some success, since whipping up fear is something they are very experienced at. So we see these polls in which the remarkable stat is that Republicans hate the president more than the Dems hated Bush. Well, at least in the first year.

    I dont quite understand why you guys think this is a point in your favor.

    I reapeat my cautionary tale. Obama’s numbers will rebound as the economy continues to improve. The GOP numbers, which have not gained at all from Obama’s slight decline, will probably sink even lower, if anything, once the American people see Obama’s policies working, and the GOP having opposed them all.

    Comment by Tano — August 21, 2009 @ 6:13 pm - August 21, 2009

  2. I can’t believe that the sight of a few thousand people, scattered across the nation, getting so riled up that they feel the need to bully their congressman and fellow citizens over healthcare, is somehow comparable to a civil war.

    And

    A deeply unpolular party, booted from office, with no new ideas, resorts to whipping up hatred and derangement against the president as their only hope to rally their own supporters.

    How, exactly is your arrogant, elitist contempt you have for Americans going to work in your favor? Same question goes to SOBama, Stretch Pelosi, Harry Reid etc. The American people are done biting on a pillow and accepting the ass rape that is liberalism.

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — August 21, 2009 @ 6:32 pm - August 21, 2009

  3. A deeply unpolular party, booted from office, with no new ideas, resorts to whipping up hatred and derangement against the president as their only hope to rally their own supporters.

    Notice how Barack Obama makes it clear that he is always right and that anyone who in any way opposes or criticizes his behavior is hateful and deranged.

    Also notice how Barack Obama insists that every idea must be “new” and that everything that was done before is somehow wrong or outdated and has to be replaced.

    You can see the collapse of liberalism in vivid detail. Lie to the voters to get elected, demonize them when they start to object in order to shut them up, and then try to systematically dismantle everything in favor of experiments based on loopy leftist ideologies that have only resulted in economic retardation and failure.

    Let’s put it this way, Barack Obama; France, Germany, and the rest of Europe have tried Obamanomics and been rewarded with double-digit unemployment, sclerotic economies, and massive deficits — which is why they are universally in the process of reducing taxes, unwinding public benefits, de-privileging labor unions, and removing anti-business and anti-free trade policies.

    But then again, your blackness is going to solve all of our problems. After all, being black has been your answer to everything before, so certainly it MUST be right.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — August 21, 2009 @ 6:32 pm - August 21, 2009

  4. Oh and we’re keenly aware, Tano, that Chairman Obama has no constitutional authority to implement his death care goals. That’s much more realistic than your wet dreams that Bush was an enemy of the Constitution or however you put it.

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — August 21, 2009 @ 6:34 pm - August 21, 2009

  5. I do not think we are heading toward Civil War, but it could be akin to Verbal War. President Obama is ging to end up as a one term President. The reason I say this is that he realized that he had to complete his agenda by the end of August or that many Democrats would fall away because they would not commit Political Suicide supporting his agenda. Now that he has blown the lid off everything, and caused this Right-Left uproar, we will see both the Senate and House fall to the Republicans in 2010, making him a lame duck President before his time. Republicans will keep the pressure on until the Presidential elections regaining the White House 2012.

    So much for the Obama Administration!

    Comment by Donald Horton — August 21, 2009 @ 6:36 pm - August 21, 2009

  6. Gerald Celente predicts Obamageddon:
    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/21/video-obamageddon-in-2012/

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 21, 2009 @ 6:56 pm - August 21, 2009

  7. (and his analysis is a bit vague, being TV and all, but basically correct)

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 21, 2009 @ 6:56 pm - August 21, 2009

  8. I just lost my big response. In short, I think that there is a low grade civil war going on at the moment. It does not involve killing but it does involve people being encouraged to dob on others.

    Comment by thestraightaussie — August 21, 2009 @ 7:58 pm - August 21, 2009

  9. For more references and resources on historical cycles and related material, Google: ‘News Kontent: A reader’s resources on systemic collapse.’

    Comment by Warren Bonesteel — August 21, 2009 @ 8:19 pm - August 21, 2009

  10. I think the Obama and the Dems are merely quickly implementing the Cloward-Piven strategy. It’s possible some of the Dems are too dumb & arrogant to know it (see, e.g. Barney Frank), but I have no doubt Obama knows exactly what he’s doing.

    I haven’t been to Gay Patriot for a while. Has anyone mentioned Attorney General Eric Holder’s dismissing the charges against the militant New Black Panthers, seen on the YouTube at a polling place during the 2008 election, harassing with epithets and nightstick the white student who was filming them? Holder examined the evidence and decided there wasn’t sufficient evidence of a crime.

    To me, that’s one of the scariest things that has happened in this new presidency. If law enforcement will bear no resemblance to equal protection and the bad guys control the big guns, we’re in for a rocky 3 years for certain. With ACORN “helping” with the census and having been awarded billions of dollars in the “stimulus” bill, there’s no guarantee Congress can turn over in ’10, even if 60% of the voters WANT it to (the other 40% being recipients of Obama’s largesse). A billion dollars or two can buy a lot of “poll watchers.”

    And I have no doubt Obama would relish a little insurrection, just so he’ll have the excuse to declare martial law. Sorry, I do think he’s evil.

    Comment by polly — August 21, 2009 @ 8:19 pm - August 21, 2009

  11. So the kool aide drinking Democrats who still think there is nothing wrong….
    Obama promised a net spending cut…..today on friday as he leaves on vacation, he gives us a 9 Trillion dollar debt,
    Obama promised he’d bring people together to solve problems, internationally he is a horrid failure, no help for Iraq, no help for Afganistan, no help for Darfur.
    Obama promised us domestically he would briing us together, then he governs arrogantly and conceeds nothing.
    Obama promised us a high unemployment of 8%, it will hit 10% even he admits and probably will go to 12%.
    He promised us no pork bills, no ear marks then signs an $800 billion dollar pork bill. It’s passage, destroys his credibility and undermines his heath care ins reform.
    His polls are lower than Bush 43 or Carter at this same time.
    Yet the Obama toadies say they are happy and aren’t worried.Yet the Democrats are happy and smiling in their arrogant stupor of power.
    The Republicans have led in the generic ballot now for weeks. Bring on 2010. Experts are now predicting a 10-30 seat loss in the House for the arrogant out of touch liberal Democrats.

    Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — August 21, 2009 @ 8:23 pm - August 21, 2009

  12. Google: ‘The Plain Truth: Beyond Conspiracy: Police State America.”

    and ‘The Next American Revolution Truth11’

    Many of you are still under the mistaken assumption that what is happening wrt to The Next American Revolution is about a left vs right and Republican vs Democrat paradigm.

    No, it is not. We are all enemies of the state.

    Comment by Warren Bonesteel — August 21, 2009 @ 8:35 pm - August 21, 2009

  13. Good Lord. Next theory: Obama is a Republican plant, whose policies are intended to mobilize the GOP.

    Comment by Ignatius — August 21, 2009 @ 8:59 pm - August 21, 2009

  14. #51: “I reapeat my cautionary tale. Obama’s numbers will rebound as the economy continues to improve. The GOP numbers, which have not gained at all from Obama’s slight decline, will probably sink even lower, if anything, once the American people see Obama’s policies working, and the GOP having opposed them all.”

    And when Obama’s policies don’t work and send the economy into a death spiral of sky-high inflation, crippling taxes, and record unemployment, you and your worthless party will blame Republicans. You will shamelessly and without a hint of remorse blame Republicans despite having Obama in the White House, a majority in the House, and a super-majority in the Senate. And the liberal MSM will assist the Left in selling such an outrageous lie because the fact is, with liberals, there is absolutely no outcome in which they will admit failure. They will defer, as always, to claims of a “lack of funding” or Republican obstructionism or right-wing corporate propaganda for undermining the well-intentioned solutions of their charismatic leader. We know this to be true for two reasons: (1) Democrats will not admit to categorical failures of liberal programs and policies in the past; and (2) they won’t acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY of failure in the future.

    To a liberal like you Tano, the failure of a liberal policy or program conclusively proves only one thing: that Republicans undermined, sabotaged, underfunded, or derailed it somewhere along the way. If liberals were willing to acknowledge objective outcomes and results, then Obama wouldn’t even be our President because his purportedly “new” and “fresh” ideas are not his ideas. They have all been attempted over and over again, failing every time. You call these things “Obama’s policies,” but they aren’t his to begin with. Tano, you’re not the first jacka*s to believe a charismatic politician who promises utopian prosperity though the massive expansion of a centralized federal government. You’re just the latest.

    Comment by Sean A — August 21, 2009 @ 9:05 pm - August 21, 2009

  15. #17: Tano wrote … I can’t believe that the sight of a few thousand people, scattered across the nation, getting so riled up that they feel the need to bully their congressman and fellow citizens over healthcare…

    This is rich: people go to town meetings to “bully” their elected “representatives” and that’s bad while the left uses the force of law in pursuit of its agenda and that’s a good thing.

    Bruce left out #8: people who want to use the force of government to pick my pocket in order to buy votes and further insulate themselves from the people they’re suppose to represent.

    Comment by SoCalRobert — August 21, 2009 @ 9:21 pm - August 21, 2009

  16. The Republican Party was broken and battered at the end of Nixons presidency. He resigned and when his successor President Ford pardoned him…..Jimmy Carter the Democrat won the office. The country wanted change and better more moral governance. An enept, administration with liberal policies completely took the country in the wrong direction and gave us the misery index that is still unbelievable to imagine. And the media and our liberal educators refuse to educate our young about the past liberal debacle. The misery index of 10% unemployment, 14% inflation, 21% interest rates. And a declining standard of living. Yes that was America in the late 70’s under a Democrat President. These smug leftist Democrats think it can’t happen again. The media and the educators refuse to educate our citizens about the past so our young can be on guard. But we have a fresh new teaching happening now. The Obama experiment. The country overthrew liberal bumbling Democrat rule in 1980. Four short years after the Nixon nightmare. Followed by 8 glorious years of Reagan and Bush 41. In just a few more months republicans and conservatives will be thanking Obama for “Carterizing” , damaging the Democrat party wounding it enough for a 2010 routing. Once again it will be up to the Republican to fix a mess, the Obama mess this time.

    Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — August 21, 2009 @ 10:50 pm - August 21, 2009

  17. Obama’s numbers will rebound… once the American people see Obama’s policies working

    I read a lot of complete nonsense on this blog, some of it utterly ignorant of basic facts of economics. The above counts.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 21, 2009 @ 10:59 pm - August 21, 2009

  18. Yes and no, ILC.

    In the sense of Obama’s economic policies actually doing anything positive, you’re right, they won’t. They can’t. Obama is pumping a massive amount of money into the economy at its most unproductive points by taking it away from the most productive. You do not grow an economy by draining the capital from successful businesses and entrepreneurs so you can hand it out to welfare addicts. If anything, he will completely depress investment while overstimulating consumerism, which is a recipe for runaway inflation and double-digit interest rates.

    But the reason Obama puppets don’t worry about that is here (emphasis mine):

    once the American people see Obama’s policies working

    Obama’s entire plan is based on the Potemkin village model — hollow houses, empty suits, pretty to look at, but don’t look any deeper. He expects to be able to completely control the spin and the story, and in the sense that he has the media completely in his sway, asking him what they can do to help him and openly stating that they will do everything possible to help him succeed, he’s right.

    That being said, as always happens, guerilla tactics rise out of necessity. Palin is demonstrating this nicely; she knows that trying to get her message out through the MSM is folly, and that she can reach just as many people through Facebook and Twitter — on her terms. Hot Air and other websites are posting the video showing Barack Obama reversing himself, spinning, flat out lying, and saying totally different and contradictory things to different audiences. The town hall protesters are taping their own things and completely bypassing the media. Obama and his propaganda mouthpieces are getting caught doing more and more ridiculous things like their editing on the guns-at-rally story to eliminate all black people carrying.

    Obama has no chance without a compliant media in complete control of the message. That’s why the next thing I expect is an outright crackdown on conservative talk radio. Obama is upset, angry, and unfortunately emotionally immature enough to believe that he can actually get away with it, just like how he and his Party tried the accusations of racism, Nazism, evil-mongering, traitors, and the others to try to get people to shut up.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — August 21, 2009 @ 11:24 pm - August 21, 2009

  19. I think more likely we will see what we saw in the ‘90’s. The right radicalize itself into violence as it becomes more and more marginalized.

    Um, Giltard, have you checked the polls recently? The majority of Americans disapprove of OBAMA, the majority of Americans disapprove of DEMOCRATS. Americans trust REPUBLICANS more on every single issue from health care to the economy, to National Security to Social Security for crying out loud. Americans prefer Republicans over Democrats on the congressional ballot by 5 points. Even liberal strategists are predicting 20-50 seat losses for Democrats next year.

    You are DELUSIONAL!

    Comment by American Elephant — August 21, 2009 @ 11:38 pm - August 21, 2009

  20. The Fourth Turning is definitely a paradigm-shifter. I read it 6 or 7 years back and loved it. After Obama got elected, I decided to re-read it and found it even more applicable.

    Comment by Brendan In Philly — August 22, 2009 @ 12:12 am - August 22, 2009

  21. Uh, all that’s good and well, AE, but Obama has thrown billions of dollars out to ACORN and if THEY can’t fix the 2010 and 2012 election, he has other friends that will lend a hand.

    This MUST be the reason the Left is so certain that they have nothing to worry about.

    I do like the comment that the right will “radicalize itself into violence as it becomes more and more marginalized.” It doesn’t take much to radicalize the Left into violence; it’s not like they have jobs to keep them busy. The Right, though, don’t tend to hurt people and break things but rather go to work, earn a living, enjoy their friends and family. Maybe if this recession continues long enough, though, and Obama attacks business and productive people until even those willing to work become unemployed, maybe then the Right WILL rise up. What’s that saying about a sleeping giant?

    I don’t think Obama is terribly smart but he’s terribly terrible and pretty much ruthless. And there are obviously some people pretty much on his wave length and they’ll never see him as anything but admirable.

    It will take luck for America to survive 4 years of Obama. He IS worse than Carter.

    Comment by polly — August 22, 2009 @ 12:13 am - August 22, 2009

  22. And if there is another civil war in our future, the first will pale in comparison. At least that time around, there were strong geographic divisions. These days, cities and states would be torn asunder.

    Comment by Brendan In Philly — August 22, 2009 @ 12:20 am - August 22, 2009

  23. “Obama’s entire plan is based on the Potemkin village model — hollow houses, empty suits, pretty to look at, but don’t “look any deeper.”

    Where I come from, we call that a “50-footer” (usually in reference to a car): Looks great from 50 feet away, but the closer you get to it, the more rot you see.

    Some days, I feel a desire to just give up and let them have at it; the quicker they finish f-ing it up, the quicker we can get around to fixing it. Then I think about my kids and know I can’t jeopardize their futures at the hands of a bunch of bullies willing to strip them of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness the instant they refuse to bow down and kiss whatever anatomic part is presented.

    Comment by Angie — August 22, 2009 @ 12:53 am - August 22, 2009

  24. Er, uh, doesn’t a civil war require at least 2 sides? Who’s the other side, the Republicans? Conservatives? These milquetoasts don’t have the nerve to fight on even the most basic political level. They’re always in the pre-surrender mode. For God’s sake, anytime you’re tempted to write this sort of silliness in the future just picture Orin Hatch or Mitch McConnell or George Will.

    Comment by George — August 22, 2009 @ 1:55 am - August 22, 2009

  25. The left just hopes to keep bullying and ducking and dodging to keep this from becoming a real fight. The left has words, the right has the guns.

    Nor can the left depend on the police and military in this possible civil war, do they really expect to see the military fire on their own parents? The left made some real mistakes, starting toward the end of the Draft. The left found it’s way into college and then grad school, the kids on the right mostly enlisted.

    Personally I worldn’t mind seeing a real fight, it’s not like I have so much look forward to now that I’m in my sixties. I can still shoot a rifle, though.

    Comment by Peter — August 22, 2009 @ 3:34 am - August 22, 2009

  26. I can still shoot a rifle, though.

    Got an 1853 Enfield replica I haven’t taken out of it’s sock in a while. There’s some FFF around here somewhere, though don’t know how good it is.

    Comment by ThatGayConservative — August 22, 2009 @ 5:13 am - August 22, 2009

  27. Sorry I’m late to this post, have been ill most of the last two days. When Obama was elected I did something I’d never considered. I bought a gun, took lessons, and stocked up on ammo. Lots of ammo. I fully expect to see the street run red, I fully expect Obama’s goons to be coming for me at some time in the foreseable future. I will not go without a battle. I, and my late partner Vince, both fought for this country and I will not let it just slip from my fingers to this obamanation that currently rules. I expect, demand, and am prepared for REVOLUTION. The time has come, we are years overdue. Jefferson said every 20 years. I say the time is now.

    Comment by John in Dublin,Ca — August 22, 2009 @ 10:20 am - August 22, 2009

  28. Guys, there’s no point in trying to reply to gillie in this thread.

    Like a whackamole, he’s already popped his head out of another hole after getting beaten here.

    Comment by The_Livewire — August 22, 2009 @ 10:27 am - August 22, 2009

  29. When Obama was elected I did something I’d never considered. I bought a gun, took lessons, and stocked up on ammo.

    John, that’s on my list of things to do in preparation for the Dear Leader’s coming dollar collapse. What I have done already is: (1) re-weight my portfolio more toward foreign stocks and commodity producers – which has proven very profitable this year; (2) started learning a martial art. OTOH, it takes a new Carter to get a new Reagan and, best case, the Obama years may simply end with the latter.

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 22, 2009 @ 1:50 pm - August 22, 2009

  30. After the question, “Is The United States In a “Low Grade” Civil War?” was asked I thought about it for a couple of days and the longer I look at what is happening around the country I think that we are actually in a “Cold Civil War” and not just a Low Grade Civil War. It will take very little to push it right over the edge.

    Comment by OldNuc — August 23, 2009 @ 9:00 am - August 23, 2009

  31. NDT, thanks for #68, I enjoyed it. Call me soon for lunch.

    the next thing I expect is an outright crackdown on conservative talk radio

    That should lead to some “fun”!

    Comment by ILoveCapitalism — August 23, 2009 @ 12:23 pm - August 23, 2009

  32. […] My answer is that he certainly is creating a civil war of a sort, but he has no idea that it’s happening. Before I expand on that, let be quote a bit from this very good post by Bruce at GayPatriot. […]

    Pingback by Not Civil War, But Maybe Ross Perot — August 23, 2009 @ 3:02 pm - August 23, 2009

  33. […] the whole thing, which also includes comments from Bruce of Gay Patriot on Voight’s rhetoric. And it’s also worth noting Gerard Vanderluen’s comment that […]

    Pingback by Ed Driscoll » The Cold Civil War Heats Up — August 23, 2009 @ 4:25 pm - August 23, 2009

  34. “It doesn’t take much to radicalize the Left into violence; it’s not like they have jobs to keep them busy. The Right, though, don’t tend to hurt people and break things but rather go to work, earn a living, enjoy their friends and family.”

    Very good, in #71 Polly shows the ignorant side of conservatism that spreads ridiculous judgmental lies about the “other side” and gives a delusional rosy picture of the Right. FACT, Polly, whether you like it or not is that the vast majority of both sides are productive, working people just trying to get on with their lives. Bitter losers like yourself can’t accept that because it doesn’t feed into the atmosphere of hostility that it is so important to you.

    And then #77 shows us the unhinged, paranoid side that is begging for violence to appease some twisted need in themselves. Open your eyes Polly, he is not alone. John, you claim that you and your partner fought for this country. Then why are you so hungry to destroy it now? You are no different that the thugs in my neighborhood who use guns to compensate for their lack of true manhood and who shed blood without hesitation. America needs defending from YOU and and all those who are so warped that only violence will feed their needs. True Americans are not sitting with their hands on their guns waiting for an excuse to use them. True Americans are not babbling about a hallucinated civil war. True Americans want this country to move forward to be the nation of truth and justice it is meant to be. Masturbate with your guns little men and women but realize that if you get what you seem so much to desire you will lose, we all will lose and America’s enemies will gleefully dance on the ashes of a once great country.

    Comment by a different Dave — August 23, 2009 @ 6:42 pm - August 23, 2009

  35. […] Counterrevolution by Mike Aug 24 2009 TrackBack Address. Jimmy Bise — with an assist from Bruce — says what a lot of us are thinking: I do believe there is a civil war coming in this […]

    Pingback by On civil war » Cold Fury — August 24, 2009 @ 2:40 pm - August 24, 2009

  36. […] Is The United States In a “Low Grade” Civil War? from GayPatriot.net […]

    Pingback by tomllewis - Quotes for the past week. — August 29, 2009 @ 5:24 pm - August 29, 2009

  37. […] Is The United States In a “Low Grade” Civil War? from GayPatriot.net […]

    Pingback by tomllewis - Quotes — September 5, 2009 @ 8:17 pm - September 5, 2009

  38. […] Elite Class and the Outside The Beltway Normals.   It makes me wonder where we are with our “low grade civil war” these […]

    Pingback by GayPatriot » Major Shift in Political Winds in USA — October 26, 2009 @ 12:38 pm - October 26, 2009

  39. I support secession.

    Comment by Robbie — December 6, 2009 @ 8:24 pm - December 6, 2009

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