Many have offered reasons why the “tide of opinion seems to continue to run against Barack Obama and the Democrats’ health care bills.” Victor Davis Hanson believes that Democratic proposals to overhaul our health care system are losing favor with the American people for the same reason George W. Bush lost public support for the war in Iraq:
. . . the Bush administration . . . could not articulate what the aims in Iraq were, why they were worth the likely costs, and why decisions like disbanding the Iraqi army, at first pulling back from Fallujah, giving a reprieve to Sadr, etc. were mistakes and would not be repeated. The problem was not that Bush and Co. did not fight back sufficiently, but rather that they did not explain adequately to the American people why the people’s growing doubts about winning in Iraq were mistaken.
This Clio of punditry believes the President has failed to offer “a simple, understandable plan . . . failing to explain and defend” what his proposals will accomplish “with clear language and logic.” It might have helped the Administration if the President has submitted its proposal to Congress instead of “outsourcing” it to the left-wing leaders in the House. And if there were just one proposal on the table (and not several, different weighty bills).
It’s not just the President’s failure to “explain adequately” what he is trying to accomplish and (his party’s failure to coalesce around a single, succinct proposal) which has led to his slide in the polls, it has also been the Democrats’ (and the media’s) failure to understand the resiliency of conservative ideas.
They believed their own propaganda about a decrepit GOP and a moribund conservative movement. They just assumed their opponents on the right represented a toothless opposition. It never occurred to them that opponents of big government (and not just conservatives) would take to the streets to protest Obama’s policies.
They surely thought they could just roll over the opposition, much as LBJ did when he launched the Great Society. No wonder they must needs malign the protesters (and their allies in Congress). It’s how they deal with what they didn’t expect. And what they can’t understand.
“it might have helped the Administration if the President has submitted its proposal to Congress instead of “outsourcing” it to the left-wing leaders in the House. ‘
Actually, the reason for the ambiguity in just what Obamacare means is due in large part to his “outsourcing” to the gang of six in the Senate – in his fervent, and perhaps naive wish to craft a bipartisan bill.
“failure to understand the resiliency of conservative ideas.’
Oh really? Which ones are those? That there should not be forced euthenasia? That there should not be a government “takeover” of health care?
Perhaps Obama and the Dems failed to realize the utter depths of vile dishonesty that those on the right were willing to go in order to hand him a political defeat.
No matter. Silly season is coming to a close. The ranters have shot their wad. Come the fall, there will be resolution in the committees. There will be a single bill. And only then will we see who does or doesn’t have the political smarts.
LOL…of course, the screaming black brat Barack Obama and his Obama Party are now calling the Senators who oppose them “Neanderthals”.
Very “bipartisan”, that. People are finally realizing that the black brat can’t do anything other than to namecall. It shows the utter lack of values, morals, and ideas in the Obama Party and the total failure that is Barack Obama himself.
Has Chance from Being There</b spoken through Tano?
Hey, North Dallas,
Did you know our President is black? We got a black man living in the White House! What do you think of that?
NDT, I know you’re a great guy and mean well, but (1) Tano’s Dear Leader is only half-black, (2) even if he is a babied, incompetent child of affirmative action, stressing his race just isn’t a good way for us to be going.
What I came to respond to:
Dan, I think the President’s plan *is* simple and understandable: Government takeover of health care. First through mandates and even more micromanagement, but leading in a few more years to the Promised Land: single payer. Obama and others in his camp have said it over and over – in the past. It is what his plans all point to. But now, in 2009, they are lying about it. “Single payer? This isn’t single payer! I’ve never supported single payer!” when in fact there is YouTube video of Obama saying he supports it and of his plan’s intellectual architect candidly admitting that it is all more-than-a-Trojan-Horse for single payer.
That’s the problem with the ‘sales job’ here. The problem is that Obama can’t afford to be candid, and isn’t being candid, about his true objective. He is not selling, he’s obscuring – because he knows he must. The American people, meanwhile, smell a used car salesman with cheap cologne lying through his teeth, to push a lemon on them.
ILC,
Are you so incredibly dense that you do not understand the basic issues in this debate? Even if your little fantasy about single payer were true, and it isn’t, single payer IS NOT health care. Single payer is still an INSURANCE scheme.
What the UK has – or what the VA is – where government owns the hospitals and employs the doctors – that is government run health care.
Single payer is government health INSURANCE – insurance that covers your treatment by PRIVATE doctors and PRIVATE hospitals.
Sheeeshhh – and you wonder why people end up insulting the “intellegence” of those on the right!
Tano, your ignorant blather means nothing. I made several points about your Dear Leader’s lies – as one example, the point that your Dear Leader is lying when he says he has never supported single payer, because there is video right on YouTube video of him saying how he supports single payer. I note you have no answer to any of those points.
Further to that: The notion that doctors and hospitals remain in any real or meaningful sense PRIVATE, when the government is the sole payer of all bills and micro-managing all terms (as it does in large part already through Medicare), is ludicrous. Your trying to present it is a perfect example of what my comment talked about: You and your Dear Leader need to obscure, obscure, obscure your true agenda and what the obvious consequences of the Dear Leader’s plans are going to be.
It would seem that sleazy lying is being practiced in this debate, not only by the Dear Leader, but by his supporters.
‘Under my plan, you can keep your doctor/insurance’ – Another of the Dear Leader’s lies. His plans (whichever one applies, this day of the week) would have inevitable effects on the supply side of things that will, in the end, prevent most people from keeping their current doctors.
Let’s watch Tano lie and obfuscate now, trying to deny that one just as his Dear Leader does. Perhaps Tano will throw in a few more insults?
ILC,
Asked and answered days ago. Obama said that if we could start from scratch, he would be supportive of single payer. But since we cannot, then we have to work with the system that has evolved.
Are you clear now on the difference between insurance and health care? Maybe you should go back and rethink all your arguments in that light.
“The notion that doctors and hospitals remain in any real or meaningful sense PRIVATE, when the government is the sole payer of all bills…is ludicrous.”
No. Its not ludicrous. Its how it works. I lived for a while in Germany with an aunt of mine, who was a physician. A private physician in what was, essentially a single payer system. She was an independent as any doc in the US, and no more hassled by the gov’t than any doc in the US is hassled by their insurance companies. She gave excellent, personalized care, and all in all, it was better than the care here. Probably because her insurance company (the gov’t) was not obsessed with finding reasons to deny claims.
ILC,
This is just too funny.
“His plans … would have inevitable effects …that will, … prevent most people from keeping their current doctors.”
You think you can sustain a charge of LYING by speculating as to what might eventually evolve from a particular policy? And that using the words “inevitable” makes it all so much more real?
Let me be blunt. You dont know what you are talking about. What you claim is inevitable, is in fact, highly unlikely, if not downright guaranteed NOT to happen.
So no. It is not a lie on Obama’s part. Is absurd fantasy speculation on your part.
As predicted: lies and obfuscation from Tano. Obama may well have said the above – because He has said so very many things – but that’s not the Obama quote we were discussing.
We were discussing this:
When in fact, Obama most certainly had said before that he is a single payer supporter:
Obama lied. Very simple. Why not just admit it, Tano, and be done?
As for this:
Well, if you are enamored of Germany, that explains a lot. But “as independent as any doc in the US” isn’t saying much. That’s the point. Government has been in a slow-motion takeover of the US health care sector for *decades*. Government already burdens doctors and insurance companies alike with so many regulations and mandates that US doctors are not independent, and free market forces are not operative. That is a huge part of why health care is ever more expensive, and what we must reverse. But you and the Dear Leader don’t want to reverse that. You want a continued/intensified government takeover. Why not just admit it? As I said before:
Aww, too transparent. Come on, Tano. Get it up. You can lie and obfuscate on the Dear Leader’s behalf quite a bit better than that.
Wow – this is so pathetic. You dredge up a quote from six years ago, before he was even a US Senator – with no context, and you think you have your holy grail – a LIE!!! No, I dont think so. Even if he did say that, and the context doesnt defuse it, I think his later statement – that he has not said he was a supporter need not be seen as a lie. The later statement refers to his position at any point in the current debate – starting with when he raised the issue at the beginning of his campaign, and throughout his campaign, and his presidency.
Never in this effort has he ever taken the position that single payer is the goal, explicit or hidden, To the contrary, in the face of criticism and great disappointment from the left of his base, he has consistently said that he did not think a single payer system is appropriate. Why can’t you simply deal with that reality? I mean, after all – I would think you would be happy that single payer is off the table – because Obama took it off the table. ITs at least one tiny thing that he did that you should be happy about. But no, you are obsessed with these great dark conspiracy theories. Its really kinda sick.
‘Government has been in a slow-motion takeover of the US health care sector for *decades*.”
Ah, forgive me. I forgot I was talking to Mr. “everybody in America is a fascist, ‘cept me”. And yes, I exaggerate a little here. Just the Democratic and Republican parties….and their supporters,,,,
I don’t know why liberals are allowed to ignore the obvious. The system in the UK Canada MA TN are health insurance plans that have gone from private TOWARDS nationalized health insurance. Some are more nationalized than others. But all are becoming failures! TN has ended their experiment. MA doesn’t know what to do and is trying to cut costs and eliminate some clients. And we hear the horror stories from abroad. The liberal response is “well we’ll do it differently” . How’s that? The dummies in Washington DC are so much smarter than those in London, Memphis, Boston and Ottawa??? Come on it is only logical. 86% of health ins users are happy with their status. They don’t want it all thrown up in the air to satisfy the 16% who mostly don’t want to pay to be responsible now.
Come on tano, fight fair. How come all of a sudden we can’t use Obamas words on critical issues? Whether it was 2 , 5 or 10 years ago, it tells you where his heart is. He’s a leftist, union loving, single payer guy. He should man up and be honest.
Then explain how exactly that system DIDN’T bring GM Chrysler and almost FORD to their kneees begging for a bailout.
Did you know our President is black? We got a black man living in the White House! What do you think of that?
I think that’s the level of intellectual rigor that you and your fellow liberals apply to your analysis. It’s also Barack Obama’s thought process; “I’m black, so everything I do is right and everyone who disagrees is a racist.”
I don’t care what color the President is, mainly because that is irrelevant to whether or not he or she can do their job. But in this case, we have a President who cannot and will not do their job and expects us to ignore that fact because of their skin color.
No Gene. The system in the UK is NOT national health insurance. It is national health CARE, and has been since the late forties.
“How come all of a sudden we can’t use Obamas words on critical issues?”
You can use whatever words you want. If you are interested in persuading other people, rather than just ranting though, you will make strong arguments rather than weak ones. That is one of my jobs here – to point out to you the weakness of your arguments. Y’all should be paying me…
“Whether it was 2 , 5 or 10 years ago, it tells you where his heart is.”
But no one denies that his “heart” is with single payer – he has said as much, and no one denies it. But his head told him long ago that it is not practical given the system that we have evolved, so he has gone another way.
“Then explain how exactly that system DIDN’T bring GM Chrysler and almost FORD to their kneees begging for a bailout.”
??? Howwzzat? GM and Ford did not participate in some government health insurance scheme. What is your point here?
LOL 🙂 – I was trying to go easy on you, Tano, by not dredging up too many examples at once of Obama declaring his true agenda to be single payer.
He has said it more than once. I can see you are behind the curve. I will supply another. This one I believe is from 2007:
Emphasis added. He called it “That perfect system”, Tano, and laid out in no uncertain terms that it was where he wanted to lead us, “over time”.
Now let’s compare that with my original claim, from #5:
Emphasis added. Now, you took exception to that. But I was spot on, now wasn’t I? Why not just admit it, Tano? You would look less foolish.
“I don’t care what color the President is,”
Oh really? Then why do you obsess about it in just about every comment you make?
I think you desparatly want people to call you a racist – and you are just furiously chumming the waters and hoping for a strike. You probably have your whole little “i’m a pretty little victim of all these meanies calling me a racist” speech, ready to go.
Give it a break, eh?
And now Tano lies. (See above.) Just as I predicted at #9.
This is so easy and fun, let’s review, in fact!
Let’s watch again, as Tano’s Dear Leader declares explicitly that single payer is his true desire:
Now let’s watch Obama flagrantly lie about his support for single-payer:
Then why do you obsess about it in just about every comment you make?
Because, as I pointed out already:
But in this case, we have a President who cannot and will not do their job and expects us to ignore that fact because of their skin color.
As for calling us racists, we already have that. Barack Obama is calling us racists, Neanderthals, evilmongers, Nazis, and so forth as he whines and screams and throws his temper tantrums.
Perhaps Obama and the Dems failed to realize the utter depths of vile dishonesty that those on the right were willing to go in order to hand him a political defeat.
Perhaps Chairman Obama can hold up “his” bill, point to specific sections and page numbers and prove everybody wrong. Wouldn’t that make more sense, and be more presidential, than calling everyone liars, Nazis, mobs, racists, teabaggers etc?
He knew which section referred to “Death Panels”, why not show us what the section ACTUALLY said? If it was so damn great, why pull it out?
No matter. Silly season is coming to a close. The ranters have shot their wad. Come the fall, there will be resolution in the committees. There will be a single bill. And only then will we see who does or doesn’t have the political smarts.
No matter. Chairman Obama is launching investigations into alleged CIA “abuses”. What’s more, he’s going to erase 9/11 permanently. That’ll keep those ignorant Proles busy.
Let me be blunt. You dont know what you are talking about. What you claim is inevitable, is in fact, highly unlikely, if not downright guaranteed NOT to happen.
The CBO, PolitiFact & FactCheck seem to disagree with you.
BTW, doesn’t HR 3200 require hospitals and physicians to switch over to non-profit status? If they can remain private, why require them to change?
No Tano, not everybody in America. Only you socialists who try to pretend that you’re not – who try to pretend that you somehow still believe in private property and individual freedom, on some level, when all your plans and regulations and mandates serve only to destroy human freedom. Just you.
Poor Tano really doesn’t know how the world works, does he?
Private doctors and hospitals negotiate rates with Private insurances. These two private entities come to an agreement on price. Or they don’t come to an agreement and the insured choose to go there, knowing the insurance pays at a reduced rate (or no rate if that’s what their plan says. Don’t know what your benefits are? RTFM)
Places like the Mayo clinic don’t negotiate with anyone, because they know they’re big enough, skilled enough and damnit famous enough that people will go there if it’s difficult. They also know that people who go there will pay.
There’s this thing called ‘Reasonable & Customary’ (R&C). R&C is gathered by checking what doctors and hospitals charge in an area and charting the average. Despite people not understanding, this is not done by insurance companies. They buy the data from third parties that just do this.
That’s the real world. Now Medicare/Medicaid don’t work in the real world. They don’t negotiate. They say “We pay x for y. Take it or leave it.” Obama’s lies and what would be called slander by anyone else of doctor’s aside, they don’t get 10k for an amputation.
If the government is the single payer (or even in the game) it’s not a level field anymore. The private insurance negotiates. the ‘public option’ says ‘take it or leave it’. Which becomes ‘take it or we’ll mandate you take it’.
I hope Tano is out there reporting us on the fishy “snitch” line this minute. (The White House closed ‘flag’, but opened a new addy, right?)
#28, no, they created a web page, that you enter a post into…basically, the same thing though…
Wow! Tano just got his butt handed to him!
That happens a lot gary.
Maybe this time he actually noticed?
Are Republicans now telling us that there really were WMD’s in Iraq, so Bushie couldn’t have lied about it, even though BUsh himself admitted there were none?
So they are saying Bush lied that there were no WMD’s?
How cute!
As for this:
“The private insurance negotiates.”
That’s hillarious! Every year the cost of the policies go UP but the amount they pay out stays the same or goes down.
So who are they negotiating with? Themselves to make sure that the CEO of Insurance company X makes the same as the CEO of Insurance company Y!
After all they realllllllllllllly need a bigger and better yacht every year or they won’t get the best looking “escorts” they can ply with $1000 of wine that WE PAID FOR!
YOu must have gotten those “this is not a bill *yet* forms that show what a small amount of your money goes to the doctors and hospitals compared to what the doctors and hospitals say are their costs.
So it is the insurance companies that are telling doctors what they can and can’t do, despite your belief that doctors have some say in it.
Sorry, I’m not interested in turning over MY MONEY to some megarich guy who thinks he’s a god and can take all the money he feels like.
I love capitalism, but what the REpublicans have been doing for most of the last 28 years has no connection to real capitalism.
The POINT Of capitalism is to spread the wealth, not to have the few at the top having most of the money. And it’s not giving tax breaks to those who inherited their money.
And capitlism sure doesn’t say that America should hand billions of dollars and American jobs over to commies as the Republicans did. Our balance of payments has been negative for most of Bush’s 8 years (if you don’t know what “balance of payments” mean you could look it up if you know how to dothat).
That Republican view of capitalism is in fact that same as the monarchies that our Revolution fought against.