Why President Should Ditch Obamacare, Focus on Economy
The farther away I get from the 2008 presidential election, the more amazed I am at how well John McCain did in the November balloting. Our anxieties about the economy were stoked by a media eager to portray the then-President as a failure and McCain the candidate of that man’s party couldn’t articulate a coherent economic message.
McCain’s campaign slogan had little to do with Americans’ (then-) current concerns. He did nothing to calm our fears, did not clearly articulate a plan to improve things.
And in came Barack Obama, calm, cool, collected. He tapped into our anxieties and promised change.
People trusted him to fix the economy and yet, while there are still signs of recovery, unemployment continues to climb with only one in eight American employers expected “to add to their workforce” in the fourth quarter this year. While hiring expectations “are improving around the world,” 14% of domestic employers “expect a decline” in their workforce.
My advice thus to the President, use his speech tonight to recall how he owed his electoral success to economic anxiety, choosing to put health care overhaul on the back burner and focus on the economy. I mean, just imagine the speech,
Many of you have rallied this past month against radical reform of health care; I’ve heard your concerns. I agree. We need to slow this down, take some time to craft a solid program for reform. Meanwhile, many Americans are losing their jobs, while others fear they could be the next to be laid off. Let’s first fix the economy before we proceed to other necessary projects. You elected me to fix the economy. And that’s what I’m going to do.
Should he speak those words or something similar, he’d reverse his slide in the polls, would probably pick up a point or two (or half-dozen) and leave Republicans confused, confounded and sputtering.
My fellow partisans may declare victory in stalling Obamacare, but the President would have regained the initiative.
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He should have been laughed back to Chicago when he said “Call me if you need me”.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — September 9, 2009 @ 2:06 am - September 9, 2009
…or pigs could fly out of his butt. (Probably more likely too)
Democrats do not WANT health care reform. They want single payer.
They couldnt give a damn if their bill makes health care more affordable (it doesnt. It makes it more expensive according to the CBO), the only thing they care about is forcing more people into government run care, while sabotaging whats left of the private market with impossible regulation.
He knows exactly what he is doing. He knows he is lying to Americans through his teeth, and more and more Americans realize it every day.
Comment by American Elephant — September 9, 2009 @ 7:11 am - September 9, 2009
Well look at what letting Joe Biden focus on the stimulus has done.
Heck of a job, Barry!
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 8:54 am - September 9, 2009
“They want single payer…. the only thing they care about is forcing more people into government run care’
Once again we have an example of how the loudest critics dont seem to have the slightest clue about what they are talking about.
Leaving aside the question of whether the basic points here are valid, lets just look at the characterizations here. “Single payer” – what liberals all supposedly want, is a system of government INSURANCE that will pay for PRIVATE care. Y’know, like Medicare. Medicare does not own hospitals. It does not employ doctors. It does NOT PROVIDE CARE. It is INSURANCE.
So how on earth can someone say, in the very next sentence, that all these people who want single-payer INSURANCE, really want to force everyone into government run CARE (like the VA, I suppose)?
Either by willfully carrying on the profoundly dishonest argumentation that the right has been pushing for months, or not knowing what the heck you are talking about.
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 9:34 am - September 9, 2009
First, Tano’s Dear Leader would never admit he was radical. That’s not what Alinskyites do.
Second, the more he tries to “fix” the economy, the more he is doomed to fail. That is the path of the Great Depression. The Great Depression started out as just an ordinary recession. Recessions naturally fix themselves: that is, when left alone, people naturally ‘do things’ that make the economy and employment grow in the aggregate. When let alone, and when not given perverse incentives by socialism / Big Government, people will naturally behave to improve their lot: they will start a business (creating jobs), work at the business or job someone else just invented, etc. It takes a powerful, oppressive government to ruin that.
And in the 1930s, that’s what we had. First Hoover, and then Roosevelt, tried and tried to “fix” the economy – and the very effort undermines what people naturally do and ruins the economy. Between them, Hoover and Roosevelt took an ordinary and healthy recession – one needed to liquidate speculative excesses from a Fed-created investment bubble, sound familiar? – and dragged it out into a 13-year torment. FDR has THE single worst economic record of any U.S. President.
And Obama is now on the same dark path. Obama is repeating most of the Big Government mistakes of Hoover-Roosevelt. We haven’t had Hoover’s or Roosevelt’s massive tax increases just yet; but give him time. Obama has proposed massive tax increases – see cap-n-tax; and/or proposed insane levels of spending that will inevitably drive us there – see Porkulus, $1.6 trillion deficits and most of all, KopechneCare. Obama has proposed and/or enacted massive increases in regulation that must inevitably lower production, and therefore employment. What he’s still missing is the Smoot-Hawley tariff. Let’s give Obama time on that one, too.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 10:22 am - September 9, 2009
And again, Tano shows his ignorance of market forces.
I go to the doctor I chose, from my list of providers. I changed doctors years ago because my previous doctor was no longer taking my insurance. She made a market decision to accept contracts from insurance.
In a single payer system, she doesn’t have a choice between MMOH and Cygna. She goes to Governments R Us or hangs up her shingle.
Yet, in Tano-land, being able to only be paid by one organization is some how compeditive.
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 10:41 am - September 9, 2009
Tano – If I were you, I wouldn’t be trying to change the subject to the fact that Obama wants single payer and that many Democrats support his KopechneCare plans as more-than-a-Trojan-Horse to get to their goal of single payer. You got your ass handed to you, the last time. Before you fled the thread.
No – It just dictates terms, to the point where it may as well own the hospitals and employ the doctors.
By the way, Tano, that is a variant of socialism called “fascism”. With communism, the socialist government takes over the means of production outright. With fascism, the socialist government pretends that it loves private enterprise, but then in reality, burdens private enterprises with so many dictates and directives and mandates and price controls, yadda yadda, that freedom and ‘private enterprise’ become horrible fictions.
Question answered above.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 10:48 am - September 9, 2009
P.S. Since the topic is ObamaCare in part, here is why I have started calling it KopechneCare.
The reference is, obviously, to the fact that Democrats want to rename it KennedyCare since Kennedy’s death, and to Mary Jo Kopechne, a tragic example of someone killed by the Senator’s “care” (or lack thereof).
Medicare has several “parts”, A through D. Here are parts A through F of KopechneCare. (Hat tip V the K, on Part F.)
A. Bloated, ne’er-do-well government gets drunk – on its sense of power.
B. Bloated, ne’er-do-well government traps you in a car – reducing your options of escape.
C.The waters are rising. You need help.
D. Bloated, ne’er-do-well government puts itself first and rations its rescue efforts, drowning you.
E. Bloated, ne’er-do-well government lies to cover it up.
F. Media applauds the compassion of bloated, ne’er do well government, proclaims that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 10:58 am - September 9, 2009
Well, it appears that The One not only isn’t taking your advice, GPW, but he’s obviously learned NOTHING from the angry protests of the last several weeks. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that in his speech tonight, Obama plans to endorse a government-run insurance option and individual mandates requiring Americans to carry health insurance with a failure to comply leading to penalties of up to $3,800 per family.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125240777810092069.html
I, for one, am thrilled. Regardless of what happens now, Obama is making no effort to conceal his contempt for the majority of Americans who have sent a loud, unequivocal message to him condemning this plan. Now there’s no question–he doesn’t care what Americans want and it is irrelevant to him that the CBO has consistently and repeatedly confirmed that his healthcare plan will be an unmitigated train wreck. He knows best and that’s the end of it. Hopefully this will have the positive effect of finally waking up his “moderate” supporters and confirming for them that everything conservatives have been saying is absolutely true. Obama’s loyalty is first and foremost to his leftist agenda. All other considerations are secondary.
Comment by Sean A — September 9, 2009 @ 11:13 am - September 9, 2009
#7: “By the way, Tano, that is a variant of socialism called “fascism”. With communism, the socialist government takes over the means of production outright. With fascism, the socialist government pretends that it loves private enterprise, but then in reality, burdens private enterprises with so many dictates and directives and mandates and price controls, yadda yadda, that freedom and ‘private enterprise’ become horrible fictions.”
Well said, ILC.
Comment by Sean A — September 9, 2009 @ 11:16 am - September 9, 2009
Mandates = fascism.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 11:16 am - September 9, 2009
Finally some clarification on what Obama means when he says he wants to work with Republicans in a bipartisan effort to reform the healthcare system: “Thanks, but no thanks.”
http://www.breitbart.tv/goper-obama-told-us-thanks-but-not-thanks-on-offer-to-work-together-on-health-care/
Comment by Sean A — September 9, 2009 @ 11:38 am - September 9, 2009
#5
ILC –
1st you are trying to rewrite history through arguments such as “could haves” “would haves” and “if onlys”
By using your logical fallacies, one could prove that storks are responsible for babies.
Here are some people who have thought this subject through:
Berneke:
Only with the New Deal’s rehabilitation of the financial system in 1933-35 did the economy begin its slow emergence from the Great Depression.”
Gross: “One would be very hard-pressed to find a serious professional historian–I mean a serious historian, not a think-tank wanker, not an economist, not a journalist–who believes that the New Deal prolonged the Depression.”
If you read actual thinkers (not just Fred Barnes) you can learn fantastic things.
2nd For the 100000000th time. Fascism is not an economic model. Fascism is the fostering of “love of state” to hyper levels. – usually through fearmongering. Nationalistic fervor is what makes fascism so dangerous. Not the economic polices.
And then this:
“mandates = fascism”
So is the draft fascist?
Are seat belt laws facist? Is madating educational attendence fascist?
or are you just over the top?
Comment by gillie — September 9, 2009 @ 11:44 am - September 9, 2009
As gillie predictably pops up here after having been whacked in another thread…
Yes gillie, no one ever showed FDR prolonged the Great Depression.
Though gillie using ‘real thinkers’ is laughable.
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 12:20 pm - September 9, 2009
Not at all. It is a fact, gillie, that FDR has the single worst economic record of any President in United States history. The highest unemployment, the lowest growth, and the lowest rise in living standards. Fact. It is also a fact, gillie, that the Depression lasted *nine more years* under his policies and only WW2 ended it.
Here, I’ll say it again with *bold stars*, so maybe it will sink in this time: *FDR had/has the worst economic record of any United States President*. Fact.
As for Bernanke: He is a huge part of the current problem. He was one of Greenspan’s top lieutenants in creating the financial bubbles and thus, the financial crisis. That’s why your Dear Leader loves him and just re-appointed him: the DL wants more of Bernanke’s low interest rates that inflate bubbles. Quoting Bernanke’s existence at me means nothing. Note that your Dear Leader just re-appointed him, thus taking ownership of Bernanke’s policies and earning the blame when the next wave of Bernanke’s crash-with-inflation hits in 2011 or late 2010.
TL – Great links. In addition, Amazon has books for gillie, that he of course will never read – it’s too challenging:
FDR’s Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression (Paperback)
The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression (Hardcover)
gillie – Did I not make myself clear? What part of “mandates = fascism” is not clear enough for you? OF COURSE the draft is fascist. That’s why Democrats, such as Charles Rangel, have kept on proposing to bring it back.
No – but very clearly, you are. LOL
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 12:40 pm - September 9, 2009
It looks like Obamateleprompter will stick to his guns tonight, wanting govt health care, single payer preference. I’m thrilled. Nothing will please Republicans more. All we need is to have the Democrat Congress ram it thru in a party line vote. Watch the town hall meetings after that! hehe It is gonna be a fun year leading up to next November!! Can’t wait! So much for the post partisian President! What a liar. He hasn’t talked to Republicans about health care siince April.
Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — September 9, 2009 @ 12:48 pm - September 9, 2009
One of TL’s links is worth quoting in full, for the click- and reading-challenged (you know who you are):
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 12:51 pm - September 9, 2009
gillie if you’ve not already scurried to another thread answer me this:
Why does the government need to restrict my options? Why do they need to tell me to wear a seat belt? Why can’t I choose not to?
Why does the government need to force me to wear a helmet?
Why does the government need to conscript my labor without paying me a fee I feel is appropriate?
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 12:54 pm - September 9, 2009
I would add to that, that the New Deal’s true prolongation of the Depression came from its restrictions on the supply side of the economy – its restrictions on production and business competition. At one point, business people were prosecuted for being able to deliver a product or service more cheaply than their competitors!
By preventing free markets from functioning – that is, by preventing *people* from functioning – the Depression was prolonged.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 12:56 pm - September 9, 2009
For the 100000000001th time: It is.
In economics, fascism is that form of socialism in which the socialist government pretends that it loves private enterprise, but directs and expropriates private enterprise ‘de facto’ through regulations, controls and mandates.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 12:59 pm - September 9, 2009
Wow Gene, you really live in your own little fantasy land, doncha?
“It looks like Obamateleprompter will stick to his guns tonight, wanting govt health care, single payer preference.”
You really not paying attention. Single payer, and gov’t health care are two entirely different things, and I explained to another local genius above. And Obamacare will be neither of those.
” Watch the town hall meetings after that! hehe It is gonna be a fun year leading up to next November!!”
Sorry to burst another bubble. But all the polling that came out in the past few weeks shows that all the noise and bluster of the town hall bullies has amounted to absolutely nothing. It didnt move the numbers one bit, in terms of support or opposition to Obamacare.
“What a liar. He hasn’t talked to Republicans about health care siince April.”
You are the liar. He has been constantly talking to the gang of six. In fact he has lost a lot of support on the left for being too accomodating to the GOP. Many feel he is being played for a fool by Grassley et al. who seem to be pretending to negotiate in good faith, but then turn around and claim they may vote against the bill even if they get evrything they ask for!
One fo the House committee bills accepted 161 amendments put forth by Republicans, and then didnt get a single GOP vote.
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 1:02 pm - September 9, 2009
gillie,
You are wasting your time with ILC. What can you expect from someone who is in love with an abstract ideology? I guarantee you, there is no rational argument you could possibly make that would make him waver from a full-throated defense of his loved one.
He is a fundamentalist. That means his attachment to his love is more fundamental than anything else, like reason. He has no interest whatsoever in solving problems, so he will not admit that they exist. He has no interest in thinking through what a wise policy might be, he is already totally in love with an ideology that can generate answers to any situation. It makes no difference if the answers make sense in the real world, it simply their source – his great love – that gives them validity.
Of course he, and his fellow fringe fundamentalists, have to try to attack the liberal solution to the Great Depression. The GD is one of the clearest, most obvious examples of the failure of free-market capitalism. The reforms of FDR were probably the one thing that saved the capitalist framework. Imagine that – he loves capitalism, and for its existence today he has to thank FDR!! Its WAY too much for his little brain to deal with. And so we get these hilarious convoluted fairy tales.
He needs these stories desparately. He will not let them go, no matter how smart or logical an argument is mounted against them. Its a quesiton of faith and committment.
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 1:15 pm - September 9, 2009
Ah Tano, you make it too easy.
Reports President Obama will still push for the public option. Politico and ABC both report it.
And lets not forget his lies here in Ohio.
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 1:19 pm - September 9, 2009
Wow, Tano,
we’re still waiting for a ‘smart or logical’ sentence from you let alone from gillie.
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 1:21 pm - September 9, 2009
Tano, I have yet to see you make a rational argument on this blog. Please try sometime.
I would love to see you refute me sometime with, you know, *actual facts*. Please do try – even though it didn’t work out for you the last time (see the link I posted at #7).
LOL
Left-liberal ‘projection’ strikes again. You are the one with a Dear Leader, Tano.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 1:21 pm - September 9, 2009
As for this:
Somebody seems to not have the slightest clue what capitalism is. Here are some hints.
- Bailouts are not capitalism.
- Subsidies are not capitalism.
- Mandates and directives are not capitalism.
- Prosecuting business owners who fairly and legitimately undersell competitors is not capitalism. (Yes, the New Deal went that far.)
- Democratic socialism/fascism – or American politics of the last 8 decades, from Hoover-Roosevelt onward – is not capitalism.
We are not (and have not been) living under capitalism. Would that we were!
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 1:30 pm - September 9, 2009
ILC,
Thats why I said “the capitalist framework”.
We have a regulated capitalism with a considerable, but inadequate set of safety nets. A reformed capitalism, if you will
I agree, we do not have a pure capitalism. To the extent that ever existed, it proved to be a monstrous living hell of a system. One could make a good case that the key driver of the general history of the 20th century, was one long effort by the world to come up with some economic system that could replace capitalism – because it was apparant to almost everyone on earth what a terrible system pure capitalism was.
Thats why you got all these experiments with communism, socialism, fascism etc etc etc. They all won over millions of people willing to give them a try (good honest well intentioned people who were despartly looking for some humane system). And they all failed terribly.
We in America were so lucky to have FDR who patched together a system which allowed for the continuation of the good parts of capitalism – freedom and markets, but instituted (or continued the progressive effort to institute) the necessary regulatory controls as well as the safety net programs that could actually make capitalism work for all. And of course, unions had a big part in allowing for the development of a strong middle class.
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 1:41 pm - September 9, 2009
Livewire,
Dont understand your point. Sure he will push for the public option tonite. Did I say anything to make you think I was saying something different?
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 1:47 pm - September 9, 2009
Glenn Beck Not the Joker from Batman depicted in Posters. Glenn Beck is the Riddler. Buy The Ticket Take The Ride.
http://youhavetobethistalltogoonthisride.blogspot.com/2009/09/sighkids-glenn-beck-isnt-joker-hes.html
Comment by keyboard jockey — September 9, 2009 @ 1:47 pm - September 9, 2009
Tano: THAT’S NOT CAPITALISM.
You concede my essential point, yet spin as though I haven’t made it. How Orwellian of you.
What you call “reformed capitalism” is, in fact, fascism. In economics, fascism is that form of socialism in which the socialist government pretends that it loves private enterprise, but directs and expropriates private enterprise ‘de facto’ through regulations, controls and mandates.
There was a time – namely, 1930s and the New Deal – when fascism was openly admired by the Left. Many of the New Dealers drew their inspiration from measures undertaken by Mussolini and later, Hitler. Amazon has a book on that for you:
Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning (Hardcover)
What muddled thinking, Orwellian language, and falseness!
Freedom and mandates are direct opposites of each other, Tano. To the extent you have freedom, you don’t have mandates. To the extent you have mandates, you don’t have freedom. Hoover-Roosevelt’s fascist system didn’t preserve capitalism, i.e. freedom – it ended it, or at least greatly reduced it.
As for the middle class: Look what 80 years of the Hoover-Roosevelt-Greenspan-Bernanke-Obama system have done to the American middle class. This generation of Americans will have a *lower* living standard than its predecessors – thanks to that system of “Americanized fascism”.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 1:53 pm - September 9, 2009
As for the unions: They, too, prolonged the Depression. A large factor in the Depression was the inflexibility of the labor market, resulting in real wages never reaching a market equilibrium (being propped artificially above it), resulting in… 25% unemployment. The unions were a large factor in causing all that. Again, Tano, read the suggested histories of the Depression.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 1:56 pm - September 9, 2009
And now Tano wants to pretend that no one on the left has said that the public option is the first step to the single payer. He really does make this easy.
Comment by The Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 1:59 pm - September 9, 2009
P.S. to #31: I will give Obama-Bernanke credit for probably not making that mistake. They are giving the unions some payoff, to be sure. But they are also printing money, to create inflation. That will effectively lower real wages, tending to raise employment above 1930s levels.
So I don’t predict an exact repeat of the Great Depression. Here’s what I predict. Obama is following policies that must and will lower production and living standards. That will play out as a decade (or longer) of economic malaise. It won’t be 25% unemployment, but it will 7-15% unemployment – accompanied by an inflation that gathers slowly, but is ultimately worse and more painful than the Carter years. Obama’s Presidency will ultimately collapse on that note.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 2:04 pm - September 9, 2009
#21 once again the leftists in here just make crap up…..
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/57859-boehner-gop-leaders-havent-met-obama-for-health-talks-since-april
Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — September 9, 2009 @ 2:14 pm - September 9, 2009
Ah Gene,
you said he hadnt talked to Republicans. Thats a lie. He may not have talked to Boehner since April, but he aint the GOP point guy on health insurance reform. He has been talking to Grassley, Snowe and Enzi, at the very least, on a regular basis – since those are the Republicans who are (in some cases pretending to) negotiating on this issue.
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 4:15 pm - September 9, 2009
‘You concede my essential point, yet spin as though I haven’t made it. How Orwellian of you.”
No ILC, you are the Orwellian here, trying to pretend that the term “capitalism” can only apply to some abstract pure transmission from Adam Smith himself. Thats why I called you a fundamentalist. Its like those who say that there are no Christians, or Muslims, except those who strictly adhere to medieval interpretations of the sacred texts.
Out in the real world, one of the hallmarks of real capitalism is its profound pragmatism. In fact, that characteristic is the precise reason that capitalism can work in so many areas (not all though), and why it can be adapted to so many different cultures. And when the theory generates bad results, even horrific results, then pragamatic capitalists, like FDR, figure out ways to modify the system, and to make it work ever better.
You, along with so many on the right, seem entranced with the supposed power of the f word. Anyone who is the slightest heretic from fundamentalist capitalism is a fascist. You dont seem to realize that word usage is a transaction. You call someone a fascist, you might do injury to their reputation, but you more than likely just water down the meaning, and thus the force, of the charge. And undermine your own reputation in the process.
Its like we see with the socialism charge. So many wingnuts blabber on endlessly about socialism, and use it against things like Medicare, the end result is more likely to be that people begin to think that socialism might not be so bad – cuz they sure do like their Medicare.
You should try sometime to make measured, thoughtful, and incisive arguments, instead of hysterical, over the top nonsense. But then again, I am asking a fundamentalist to be rational – which I don’t believe is possible. So, whatever…
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 4:25 pm - September 9, 2009
“Look what 80 years of the Hoover-Roosevelt-Greenspan-Bernanke-Obama system have done to the American middle class.”
What a blind fool. The union movement, and progressives (including both Roosvelts) had a major hand in building that middle class. What have they done to the middle class? They MADE IT.
“This generation of Americans will have a *lower* living standard than its predecessors – thanks to that system of “Americanized fascism”.”
No, thats thanks to Ronald Reagan. It was under his policies that, for the first time, middle class standards of living and real wages started to stagnate. They have done so for a geneation now, except for a brief reprise under Clinton.
You actually seem to have some real facts and understanding within your reach. if you werent so blinded by your love for abstract ideals, you might even have a chance at achieving real understanding.
I think an intervention is called for….:)
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 4:31 pm - September 9, 2009
I think the percentage of unionized workers in Ameria is at a new low of 11%. If it was so great why aren’t the masses flocking to unionization? Because they destroy jobs. If we had let GM and Chrylser go bankrupt like the natural order of things, that 11% would be even lower. It was the unions who bankrupted the auto industry. Facts, hard things to deny.
Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — September 9, 2009 @ 4:38 pm - September 9, 2009
ILC-
You are saying America has been a fascist country since 1933.
Do you honestly believe that?
Or have you painted yourself into a corner?
Comment by gillie — September 9, 2009 @ 4:38 pm - September 9, 2009
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Pingback by Tonight’s TV Coverage of Obama (Yawn) Health Care: Robert Gibbs Snarky about FOX Airing “So You Think You Can Dance?” « Frugal Café Blog Zone — September 9, 2009 @ 4:55 pm - September 9, 2009
Spoken like a true Orwellian. Seriously – you mean the term “capitalism” should be applied to economic systems that demonstrably are *not* free?
Since WW2 and the Holocaust, fascism has rightly become a dirty word. Therefore, American fascists try to hide the nature of their views and appropriate the great prestige of capitalism – the system that ended slavery and produced the greatest century-plus of progress in all of human history, 1789-1913 and after – as their own. Tano is giving us a fine performance.
You yourself conceded, Tano, my essential point: That our system is not free. That we are not living under capitalism. Yet you want to spin as though I haven’t made it.
You mean: Its willingness to compromise with socialism and fascism? Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong answer. It’s true that tragically vast numbers of *business people* show that kind of destructive pragmatism, but destructive and immoral compromises with fascism and socialism are not capitalism.
Huh??? Many on the right disagree with me, and wouldn’t count my views on their own. Try again.
Nope. I have been precise in my usage of the f-word and explained carefully what I mean by it.
The essence of fascism, Tano, is personal identification with, or a kind of worhip of, the power of the State. That’s what Hitler promoted. That’s what Mussolini promoted. It plays out differently in different countries and different spheres, but that is the essence.
In Hitler’s case, the State was identified with the Race and so we got racial programs along with the other claptrap of fascism. But not in Mussolini’s case. And Mussolini is the one who gave us the word, “fascist”.
Fascism is that form of totalitarian socialism which emphasizes patriotism (or nationalism, if you prefer) and pretends to compromise with the idea of private property. In contrast to communism, which is that form of totalitarian socialism which pretends to be internationalist and to abolish private property. That’s exactly what I mean.
Insofar as your political views resemble fascism, Tano, then, to that extent, you are a fascist. I don’t claim that you are responsible for the Holocaust or WW2 or even that you desire anything like them. I mean nothing less or more than exactly what I just said: **Insofar as your political views resemble** fascism, Tano, then, **to that extent**, you are a fascist.
You clearly don’t like having that pointed out. But it’s the truth, and “pointing out the truth” is all I’m doing. You are the one with bad (both practically and morally) political views; you ought to change them.
That’s simply false. The historical facts won’t support it.
**Capitalism** built the middle class. **Capitalism** is how Henry Ford was able to offer his five-dollar-a-day wage. (At the time, an unbelievably rich wage.) Unions did not produce that or contribute to that AT ALL.
Same with Rockefeller’s achievement in making cheap energy widely available and employing lots of people at that; Carnegie’s in making cheap steel widely available and employing tons of people at that; etc. Capitalism made the middle class. Unions, in the Depression, have been one factor helping to destroy the middle class.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 4:56 pm - September 9, 2009
(i.e. in and since the Depression; and one factor among several)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 4:59 pm - September 9, 2009
I mean what I said: that America’s economy has *not been capitalist* since at least 1933 (probably earlier), and that America’s economic system resembles fascism more than anything else.
As for whether “America is a fascist country” – that’s your formulation. I would say: not quite. America has been a strange mixture. Countless ordinary Americans reject fascism. As we have seen in the Reagan era, today with the Tea Parties, etc. In a fully fascist country, political controls would extend to the stifling of dissent and the indoctrination of schoolchildren. You know – the kind of stuff that you and your Obamaprompter dream about.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 5:02 pm - September 9, 2009
Exactly. Capitalism made the American auto industry possible; unions have been slowly but surely destroying it.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 5:06 pm - September 9, 2009
The union movement, and progressives (including both Roosvelts) had a major hand in building that middle class. What have they done to the middle class? They MADE IT.
Yeah? How’s the middle class doing with the unions these days? If their companies aren’t shut down and/or shipped overseas, their losing out on pay so the union thugs can keep their bennies. My partner had his pay cut 10% almost a year ago and they stopped matching 401(K) deposits. The company just got a pittance of concessions from the Teamsters.
How are the airline unions doing? How about the Teamsters? The UAW? Well, the UAW does have their kickbacks from Chairman Obama, but not before they wrecked the American auto industry.
And all that is aside from the members of the middle class who’ve been assaulted, harassed and threatened by the unions.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — September 9, 2009 @ 5:07 pm - September 9, 2009
Oh yeah. The Sun-Times is cutting pay for nonunion workers. TAKE THAT, middle class!
Comment by ThatGayConservative — September 9, 2009 @ 5:12 pm - September 9, 2009
We’re seeing today that union thugs are part of Obama’s army in stifling dissent against his socialist-fascist policies that will further destroy the middle class.
As for the past: Unions didn’t create the innovations and productive achievements of the great capitalists who brought us all out of the Middle Ages (the agrarian system). It was, obviously, the great capitalists who did that.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 5:14 pm - September 9, 2009
ah, has whack-a-gillie decided to pop his head up here again? What’s wrong, gillie, ignoring my questions because you can’t answer them?
Tano,
Mother Jones herself said that the unions have two enemies. Business and their own leadership. I’ve seen a union abandon its membership because they wanted to *gasp* vote for their own leadership.
How did either Roosevelt ‘make’ the middle class? Typical Liberal Delusion: The masses can’t do anything w/o the government leading them.
Comment by The_Livewire — September 9, 2009 @ 5:21 pm - September 9, 2009
I can tell you how Rockefeller made the middle class: He thought of ways to multiply cheap oil production by a factor of 100 or more. That put oil – i.e., energy – in every American life: powering lights, cars, interstate trucking, machines at universities and hospitals, etc. It all didn’t exist (or at least not in mass quantities) before he did his thing.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 5:25 pm - September 9, 2009
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(and obviously, I would be referring to oil-generated electricity as well as gasoline)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 5:35 pm - September 9, 2009
gillie wries, to ILC
“You are saying America has been a fascist country since 1933.”
Yes indeed, thats exactly what he is saying. What is the point of arguing the fine points of a worldview if its foundation is built on such lunacy?
Show of hands here. How many of you other regulars around here think that America is a fascist nation?
Oh my, I just had a scary thought. Could it be that my worldview is closer to the average GP commenter’s worldview than either of ours is to this nut’s?
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 7:39 pm - September 9, 2009
Wrong again. Somebody can’t read, it looks like.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 7:43 pm - September 9, 2009
Maybe if I add *bold stars*, that will help it sink in. So here, again, is what I said:
Exposing lefties: Useless, but a little bit fun anyway.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 7:52 pm - September 9, 2009
To the extent that ever existed, it proved to be a monstrous living hell of a system.
Of course it did — because it has a nasty habit of rewarding the productive, the skilled, the thrifty, and the educated, and not rewarding the lazy.
So then we have moochers like Tano who want the good things that capitalism produces, but don’t want to do the work. That’s when they developed this whole concept of “equality” based on sheer envy and jealousy, and when they decided that government’s job was to enforce “equality”.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — September 9, 2009 @ 8:22 pm - September 9, 2009
So I guess what Tano is saying is that the Statists and their president, who’ve been running around saying “we’d love to hear the Republican’s proposals and ideas” are lying.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — September 9, 2009 @ 8:23 pm - September 9, 2009
Yes indeed, thats exactly what he is saying. What is the point of arguing the fine points of a worldview if its foundation is built on such lunacy?
Translation: Tano cannot challenge ILC based on facts, so Tano is namecalling and attacking ILC in a desperate attempt to restore credibility.
This is typical of the Obama Party. They are so insanely addicted to their ideology that they literally will abuse the law to personally destroy anyone who dares question them, such as their misuse of government records to attack Joe the Plumber.
Furthermore, they themselves are hypocritical with their own ideology — witness their insistence on raising taxes even as Rangel, Geithner, Obama, Solis, Daschle, and Sebelius cheat on and refuse to pay theirs.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — September 9, 2009 @ 8:37 pm - September 9, 2009
#55 well said NDT.
Comment by Gene in Pennsylvania — September 9, 2009 @ 8:59 pm - September 9, 2009
It takes a leftist to call the greatest source of progress in human history “a monstrous living hell of a system”. LOL
But I think NDT hit the nail on the head. Hardcore lefties want the products and benefits of freedom/capitalism – but only out of envy of others, and with great resentment of the idea that they should be earned by real work, real productive merit, etc.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 9:05 pm - September 9, 2009
Tano,
No Tano, its FASCISM — hell, its the dictionary definition of fascism for crying out loud. government seizing control of private industry.
the only difference between Obamas Democrats and fascists is that Democrats hate their country. Hell, Thomas Friedman even defends fascism in his latest column:
Get your dictatorial little hands off my health and my liberty.
Comment by American Elephant — September 9, 2009 @ 9:55 pm - September 9, 2009
ILC,
Thanks for clarifying by repeating.
“America’s *economy* has *not been capitalist* since at least 1933 (probably earlier)
America’s *economic system* resembles fascism [in its economic aspects]”
Gee, now I get it. We dont have a capitalist country. We have a country that resembles fascism. In economics.
Fine. You are still every bit a nut.
And the elephant thinks Medicare is fascism too.
Oh please please please, could you guys work really hard and become the loudest and most influential voices in the Republican party? Please?
Comment by Tano — September 9, 2009 @ 10:32 pm - September 9, 2009
That’s better, little one.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 9, 2009 @ 10:58 pm - September 9, 2009
P.S. My basic point in all this is: Human freedom is good. Freedom from tyranny – from the oppressive hand of the State – is good. I’ve made it the top value in my politics.
You, Tano, have a big problem with that. You even call it lunacy, blah blah. Need I say more? I mean: Need I spell out the inescapable implication that you don’t human value freedom? Which is exactly the truth I’ve been pointing out. Thank you for making my point, for me.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 10, 2009 @ 12:09 am - September 10, 2009
(sorry, haha – “…that you don’t value human freedom”…)
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — September 10, 2009 @ 12:10 am - September 10, 2009
Still waiting for an explanation of how Obamacare, Medicare etc. are constitutional.
And the elephant thinks Medicare is fascism too.
Well it can’t be since Chairman Obama wants to rob it of half a bil.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — September 10, 2009 @ 2:11 am - September 10, 2009
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