Over a decade ago, when I was active in Republican politics in Northern Virginia, I tried to convince a friendly, socially conservative woman that gay people were capable of mutually supportive monogamous relationships. No, she assured me, “homosexuals” (she, as I recall, never used the word, “gay”) just couldn’t control their sexual libido (though I think she used another term) unless, of course, they found Jesus and went through an intensive course of “reparative therapy.”
What struck me was not just her intolerance, her parroting of the ex-gay talking points, but the fact that she held to her prejudices even when dealing with a real, live “homosexual” who was trying to tell her about the reality of gay people’s lives. Reality didn’t seem to intrude on this woman’s narrow world view.
I thought of this woman when I reviewed some of the comments to Bruce’s recent post on The American Divorce Agreement (which had been caught in our spam filter). Their authors displayed the same sort of prejudice as did that woman who received her opinion of “homosexuals” from people who had limited, if any, knowledge of such a creature.
Only the prejudice our readers displayed was not to “homosexuals,” but conservatives. It seems they derive their entire knowledge about conservatives from left-wing blogs and the mainstream media. As I case in point, let me offer you “Auntie Dogma’s” comment in its entirety:
As if! Like the conservative freakshow is SOOOOO going to give you gay “patriots” a bunk on their bigoted ark. You’d be the floorshow, babycakes. You’d be walking the plank the minute they spotted a pod of Orcas.
Bon voyage. Enjoy your new home in Palindia — if they let you in. And remember, you won’t be missed.
Once again, someone assumes that American conservatives exclude gays and would prefer us dead. Yeah, there are some right-wingers who would do just that. I referenced one at the outset of this post.
But, since Bruce founded this blog, he and I have been referenced (regularly) on other conservative blogs, included in events for conservative bloggers (I believe he’ll be participating in CPAC later this month) and even offered credentials to the 2008 GOP convention. I’ve been invited to speak to a local Republican meeting and invited to appear on Pjtv.com.
But, facts just don’t matter to some people. They’d rather see the world through their prejudices. And this applies to extreme social conservative just as it applies to leftists.
Oh, and one more thing, that socially conservative lady with her narrow views on homosexuals was civil to me. Wrong-headed she may have been, but nasty she was not.
Isn’t there a cliche about that? Stereotypes keep the shallow-minded from actually having to form an opinion?
Don’t call me judgmental or anythin’, but there’s often a truth behind the stereotype. . .
I recently came across this sort of thing when an acquaintance of mine said, after the passing of Prop 8, that, referring to the proposition, here is proof that half of America hates me because I like boys. I pointed out that half of America doesn’t hate him, that yes, there are some that do, but they are in a minority. He proceeded to use some examples of a gay bashing, a cab driver kicking a gay couple out of their cab, and a restaurant asking some lesbians to leave (who were holding hands across the table) as evidence of system-wide persecution of homosexuals and evidence that half of America hates him. I pointed out that I’ve been working with Mormons in AZ and haven’t once been treated poorly as a result of my sexuality. I also have a position at a very conservative church (where I am out) and have always been treated well. Someone else joined the conversation and told me that he should not count me as a friend if I was not going to be supportive. “Don’t bother me with the facts, my mind is made up” comes to mind.
“But, facts just don’t matter to some people. They’d rather see the world through their prejudices.”
This is coming from the guy who freaked out because someone else didn’t like “The blind side” You could only see someone’s critique of a movie through your own political lens.
Its natural. Its one of the fundemental flaws of humanity!
“someone assumes that American conservatives exclude gays ”
Actually, I think you are being a bit unfair, Dan – and taking things out of context. Remember, the post was about some hypothetical divorce between conservative America and liberal America. A situation where sharp lines of distinction would be drawn – a situation that was obviously very much NOT like the everyday life we live. In the real world, almost all of us actually have conservatives and liberals in our own families (and thus, conservatives and liberals who we dearly love and cherish). In the real world, all manner of interactions take place.
It was Bruce who laid out the context of a divided America – so divided that it would be necessary to get a “divorce’. Apparently he found that prospect highly amusing.
The question does remain – in such a highly charged context, given that each side would probably determine their rules democratically, do you really think that the majority in Conservativeland wouldn’t jump at the chance to dump all the gays into Liberalland? I don’t think that anyone claimed that it would be a unanimous vote by the conservatives. I don’t think anyone could argue that it wouldn’t be a loudly voiced option either.
No, to admit this does not mean you claim that all conservatives are hostile to gays. It does not deny the fact that some conservatives ARE gay. It just speaks to the attitudes that are prevalent in conservative circles.
“there are some right-wingers who would do just that. “
Unfortunately there are indeed. Of the GOP folks I know, I can guess who they are. But not to worry, because I think most of us who are politically active in GOP politics in NOVA are seeing things your way….
As someone often referred to as an “ex-gay” I find it ironic, after reading your blog now for about two years and been very open about my Christian post-gay journey, that you would reduce our beliefs and life journey down to “talking points” for other people to parrot. You do that instead of actually engaging a real live one … right here right now.
You characterized my experience and identity through *your* prejudice.
I work for Exodus … and just so you know … I have been very vocal rejecting the false label of “ex-gay” and don’t have a problem referring to you as a gay man if that is what you prefer.
You have my email address. Feel free to send a note if you’d like to see what we are really like instead of dismissing our lives and experience out of hand … just like the liberals do.
From the point of view of one who is not gay but enjoys this site because it stands up for freedom, fairness, free speech, privacy and true American values” in an intelligent way — I think that we who cherish the Constitution need to hang together in defending it against statist socialism. Men who are attracted more to other men than to women are never going to comprise a voting majority, so you need allies. And those of us for whom the prime value is Constitutional freedom also need allies, as the imperial state can buy a great many votes with its programs of bread and circuses. In short, THIS American conservative (and, he suspects, many like him) neither hates gays nor wishes to exclude them from movement conservatism. Doesn’t mean that we must necessarily all agree about “gay marriage” any more than all conservatives must necessarily favor the Boeing tanker proposal over that of EADS/Northrup, or any other individual issue. Having a gay marriage certificate won’t necessarily mean a great deal if Obama & crew manage to convert the USA into a 21st century version of the Weimar Republic.
I am openly gay and have never felt unwelcome in any the conservative circles I run in. I am an officer in my local Republican party, a member of several Republican groups, and a board member of many. I advise several conservative political campaigns. Almost every conservative I come into contact with is glad to know a gay person who actual shares most of their values. Indeed I cannot think of a single exception to this in the past five years. Perhaps we differ on a few issues, and I don’t shy away from them, but by and large, conservatives are much more welcoming of gays than gays are of conservatives.
Before you think it has something to with Denver, keep in mind that before I moved to Colorado I lived in one of the most socially conservative states in the country, and my experience was no different.
The question does remain – in such a highly charged context, given that each side would probably determine their rules democratically, do you really think that the majority in Conservativeland wouldn’t jump at the chance to dump all the gays into Liberalland?
I’m not surprised that Tano thinks that; it’s probably the rationalization Tano has created to avoid having to confront his own behavior.
The problem is, Tano, that “gay rights” activists like yourself who dress children as sexual slaves, take them to sex fairs, and claim that doing so is an “educational experience” are just plain perverted. But rather than admit that fact, you try to claim that your doing so is normal, and that anyone who disagrees with you is a homophobe and “close-minded”. Hence, you truly believe that normal people would throw you out for simply being gay — because you rationalize your need for sexualizing children as being a normal part of your sexual orientation.
It is funny that we try so often to put gays in either left or right political categories because of the belief that being gay is a political decision. It is not. It is nature. After all, what political party do the gays of China or Europe, or Japan join? Or Africa or South America? There are no Demos or Repubs over there. Nor was there any political parties centuries ago, when there were gay people too.
There are those on the left who are just as anti-gay as the right. They are fringes.
There are a vast majority of people who are perplexed at the existence of gayness – -even many gays. (go ask in a gay bar why someone thinks they are gay, marvel at the plethora of reasons.) Even a passel of all liberal gays will come up with different reasons for the gayness.
On the other hand, as the tea party liberty movement moves forwards I’ve never seen so many conservative websites link to gay conservative websites as I’ve seen of late.
There is a commonality in Liberty, even if a perplexity of why gay — strange bedfellows enter the same room — and the harsher sides will ameliorate.
Randy,
I’m gay, conservative, and Christian. I am also not “self-loathing” as those dreaded liberals call me. But I also strongly disagree with people who tell me I need to go to “reperative therapy” to be saved by God.
I can respect your views if you can respect mine. Yes, I am familiar with Exodus. In fact, I have personal experience with your organization.
I ultimately realized that being gay is who I am. There is nothing to change about my sexual orientation, because this is who I am. The God I know, loves me just the way I am.
All major, accredited medical and psychiatric organizations, led by physicians, pyschologists and scientists agree that “reparative therapy” can be harmful, and that doctors and counselors should not tell their gay patients that they can become straight.
You probably disagree with all of those medical professionals. That’s okay. But when you have a heart attack, please consider asking to be taken to your church instead of a hospital.
Reparative therapy techniques encourage gay men to either suppress their same-sex attraction and be celibate, or enter into a marriage with an opposite-sex partner. Such an arrangement would be unfair to both the gay man and the woman (or lesbian & straight man). And while there is nothing wrong with being celibate, that is a lifestyle decision that should be made individually and out of one’s own volition, not foisted upon them by an organization because he or she is not worthy of being attracted to someone of the opposite sex.
Again, Randy, while I strongly disagree with your views, I can still respect them. My life journey is not yours, and your experience in life is different than mine.
You asked Dan if he would be interested in learning more about your organization.
I have friends and some family members who are very socially conservative and they strongly oppose gay marriage. They don’t understand homosexuality, but at the same time they don’t tell me that I need to “leave the gay lifestyle.” They accept me as a person and are willing to be there for me, through thick and thin.
Would you be interested in being friends with gay conservatives, who are conservative AND still comfortable with their gay sexual orientation? Could you be friends with two men who were legally married in Massachusetts? Could you be friends with two lesbian women from California who have two adopted children?
And…….could you be their friends without insisting that they follow your “post-gay journey”?
If yes, then there is at least some common ground here. If no, then you aren’t much better than the liberals out there.
To Tano…
I’ve never met you and yet I don’t like what you are…. not because of the way you butter your bread… on the contrary, my upper lip curls in disdain due to your ideology, it’s progressive premise is anathema to my being.
I don’t have to step in dog shit to know it’s not for me…. its smell alone has always been enough to remind me to keep away.
““homosexuals” just couldn’t control their sexual libido”
I’m concentrating on the first part of the sentence.
If you go to left wing blogs, you would still get this impression that homosexuals have no self control. In fact, it is broader, everyone cannot control themselves. Thus this emphasis on safe sex. Everyone is doing it!!!
To bring it full circle, since homosexuals are mostly left wing, they are intentionally promiscuous by nature, rather than choice. There is NO choice. (Yet we are to believe they are capable of having safe sex.)
I am Gay and am a Catholic convert who fully agrees with the moral teachings of the Catholic faith when it comes to chastity. I have never been asked to go to special ‘reparative therapy’ by anyone at my parish, though a few Christians on the ‘net don’t like that I ‘define myself’ as Gay.
Within the ‘Gay community’, however, I’m about as welcome as a puppy-eater at the PETA convention.
Prejudice is in everyone, but sooner or later some of us grow up.
One of the most fascinating discussions going on right now is whether a gay culture actually exists, and what that gay culture consists of, if it does exist. I spent nearly five years in a straight marriage, and have spent the last 15 years in a gay relationship, and have concluded that there is not much difference between the two. It’s hard work staying with the same person over time. It always will be. It has its joys, it has its challenges. And from my point of view, there is no single gay culture: the concept does violence to all of us who have ever been in a single-sex relationship.
Frankly, I hate that part of the gay establishment that wants to project its image as if it were the only image, and I greatly disliked the rampant sexuality, drunken license, and wretched self-serving cattiness that I experienced when I was single and out in the gay world. But, I’ve also concluded that most men, at some point, at some level, would love to be freely sexual, with no rules or guidelines or obligations. Gays have no monopoly on unethical or out of control sexual behavior, as anyone who spends any time in areas frequented mainly by young straight people will attest.
Gays love to scream at the notion that they have “an agenda.” I’m a relatively liberal person, and I am here to say that they have one. That’s why they scream at the idea that they have one. As Malcolm X once said, “every time I hear white people scream, I know that I’m getting closer to the truth.” And thus I become the first person in the history of this blog to quote Malcolm X in support, generally speaking, of this blog’s political stance!
As I said, there is a gay agenda. Some pieces are positive and benevolent, and some are disturbing. I dislike the extent to which the gay left in particular screams when ANY part of its agenda is questioned, and the extent to which suggesting the benefits of imposing ANY kind of limitation on gay sexuality results in the one making the suggestion being labeled a nazi or a homophobe.
Not sure what that makes me… but then, I have always been difficult to label.
Facts don’t matter to those who have their own prejudices……
The sky is falling global warmers, now we know it’s all a fraud, even the most extreme fanatics are bailing on the global warming faux “science”….
read this…..
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/the-great-global-warming-collapse/article1458206/
its all a lie, a fraud,
Isn’t it time for the liberals to fess up, call it a day, and move on to some other provable “crisis”?
If liberals can’t fess up and call the global warming crisis a fraud, can we trust them on any other life changing policies? Health care, cap and tax, nuclear power,
Reid calls Obama a man who can cover up his negro dialect, Emmanual calls people retards, now MS Obama our first lady calls her girls FATTIES. Is there no end to this embarrassment? Aren’t liberals held to the same PC standards as the rest of us, the rabble?
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Health/michelle-obamas-obesity-comments-bringing-malia-sasha-wrong/story?id=9751138
I’d say, personally speaking, most conservatives don’t care who you bed with, as long as you’re not fornicating in public (that goes for gay and straight, btw).
When I was married, my wife and I would have a quick kiss before we went off to our desks. I’d not be offended or ‘grossed out’ if Bill and Ted did the same thing. I’d be just as much ‘get a room’ if Bill and Ted were checking each others tonsils as I assume most would be if my wife and I had.