Perhaps unwittingly, Ezra Klein last week got at why Democrats are unlikely to pass their health care overhaul: they lack the will to do so:
If 51 Democratic senators and 218 Democratic congresspeople are dead-serious about passing a bill, they can, and will, pass a bill. . . . If that many Democrats were committed to this project, the other chamber won’t fear their colleagues leaving them hanging out to dry. It’s a fairly straightforward path to passage, and they’d begin walking down it. That they haven’t moved is evidence that will is missing, not that the rules are too complex.
And methinks that in the wake of Scott Brown’s election last month, there is even less will to enact health care reform than there was when the House passed its version of Obamacare last November, with 219 Democrats and 1 Republican voting in favor.
Over at Redstate, Moe Lane does a rundown of the votes Obamacare proponents have lost since November. And how many of those remaining in the chamber who voted “yeah” are getting cold feet now as the 2010 campaign heats up, with polls showing ever-growing opposition to the president’s plans?
The White House, various liberal and left-wing pundits as well as the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate may have the will to push through this health care overhaul, but I would dare say such will is lacking among members of their party’s rank and file. They may indeed favor such an overhaul, but given the electoral landscape at present, would rather not bring it up for a vote.
Don’t quite follow this logic. Republicans are going to run against healthcare reform whether it passes or not. If I were a Dem rep going out to face my constituents – especially my base whom I need to come out for me – I would rather be able to say that “we stood up to the obstructionists and managed to get something big and important done” – rather than have to say ” they beat us, we accomplished nothing, please send me back’.
Once the bill passes, a lot of the opposition from the left will dissipate, and that alone will make the healthreform approval numbers even, at least. Plus there will be some benefits kicking in before election day, so there will be some percentage of people who will also temper their opposition because they will realize that the right has just been fear-mongering. And finally, success tends to be rewarded. There will be some percentage of people who express disapproval of the whole process so far, primarily because it seems to generate tons of heat and nothing actually gets done. Once something is done, they will be more approving.
Not to say that the opposition will crumble, but it will be significantly lessened by November – certainly to a sufficient extent such that going ahead with the vote is probably the smartest option.
The liberals can’t get past one fact. 86% of Americans were fine with their health care. It wasn’t perfect, it wasn’t FREE, but we were fine with it. Obama took the whole board and threw it up in the air……to please the 14% some of whom CHOSE to not pay for health care because they are HEALTHY. The liberals Dems can’t get past the 86% number. Simple.
Obama care was to have the fees and taxes begin almost immediately while the so called “benefits” free healthcare wouldn’t start for 4 years. Is that suppose to be a winner for Dems running for re election in 2010 or 2012?
You could make the argument that Obama and the liberals Democrats STILL pushing for Obama care, while 70% of the population is against it…you could make the argument that they are just DUMB.
Sorry off topic….
Ahh Gov’ment
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1884422
Is this the equivilent of Mayor Nagen not firing up the 150 school buses to empty NOLA?
Once Mr. Obama starts to talk down to the ignorant, uneducated, God seeking, gun carrying Americans to clearly explain his proposal, perhaps more of the American people will agree with him…
Then the liberal woke up…
If the R’s are obstructing this process, they are doing so at the will of the American people. It is the D’s that are standing in the way of the reform that the American people want and expect.
Perhaps, the American people will clearly communicate their proposals to the House, the Senate and the White House at the polling places this fall.
#5 I mean Mr President …..the snow is……
SHOVEL READY! hehe boobs…
another off topic sorry….
Just saw independent FOX NEWS trying to get the bottom of what killed Congressman John Murtha. Murtha died days after having a routine gallbladder operation, a laparascopic surgery. It was botched and his intestine was nicked, flooding his system with poisons.
His surgery was performed at Bethesda Naval Hospital as Mr Murtha was a former Marine.
Do you all recall a few years back the scandal over the peeling paint and mildew at military hospitals. Bush 43 and Rumsfeld were ripped to pieces for their in attention to details at vets hospitals.
Well, peeling paint or killing Congresspeople…..wonder which one will get the most MSM play? HUMMMMM?
Gene,thanks for that update. What comes to mind is that many of our military sick and wounded still face the deplorable conditions in our veterans hospitals! No one should have to have that worry.
Sorry to follow an off-topic line, but it is just disgusting to see Gene try to exploit the tragedy of a man’s death, and what was most likely a slip of the hand by a military surgeon – to make some ridiculous partisan point.
Even if we go there with Gene, his point is beyond ridiculous. The conditions in a veteran’s hospital are very much under the control of the government and their policy and spending priorities. What kind of a scandal would Gene have the MSM make out of this slip of the hand? How can anyone consider these situations comparable?
My God are you liberals heartless. John Murtha dies because of a horrible mistake and you don’t want to get to the bottom if it? Peeling paint caused countless hours of media coverage, but as usual the typical liberal attitude when they are responsible is “MOVE ON”! heartless.
While Obama was watching the super bowl with some cronies, a congressman was dying in a veterans hospital. But Tabo doesn’t give a damn.
re #1: You seem to assume that all Dems, or a sufficient majority of them were sent by large enough left base constituencies to win the election. Certainly there are some, but not enough. Too many current Dems won with the votes of the left base and a significant portion of moderates and independents.
Nancy Pelosi will act as you would, but Lincoln Davis of Tennessee won’t (TN CD 4 went for McCain by 29%). If I were Rep. Davis, or even Betsey Markey of Colorado, whose district McCain won by only 1%, I would then be more concerned about that critical middle third or more that voted me as reaction to the Bush years but still don’t like the health care bill (and not because it isn’t left leaning enough). Indeed, if I were predicting electoral turnout now, I would assume that the right base is going to be more enthused and activated than the left base, and I would prefer to make my case to as many centers, and center rights as I could, coupled with a certain amount of left centers voting for me because I am not a Republican.
As a vulnerable Dem, I would prefer that the bill dies, so I don’t have a publicly recorded vote on it. I could assure my left Base that there was nothing I could do, and try to assure the centers and rights that oppose the bill that I wouldn’t have voted for it if it had gone to the floor.
Also, don’t count too much on benefits before election day. The costs (i.e. benefits to the electorate) are back-loaded to improve the CBO score, and revenue raising features (i.e. costs to taxpayers) are front loaded for the same reason. This is an old but still important point. Moreover, there will be private sector risk adjustment for those benefits that are immediate, such as the requirement to cover pre-existing conditions, that likely will result in raised premiums on more people than will benefit from new federal requirements. My guess is those unhappy with a bill passed will outweigh those happy that one passed.
Goes back to what I said the other day: The Democrats, more than the Republicans, need to face up to the fact that the Democrats have Congressional majorities. (And the fact that the American people hate many of their actual policies.)
Actually Ms. Pelosi doesn’t have 218 votes any longer. One of them died.
Well, according to Senator Harkin, the House and Senate versions had been reconciled days before Brown’s election. They also feel that the damage has already been done – that the GOP will use their votes as a stick to whack them with in the Fall whether they drop the bill now or not.
I think this is a fundamental misreading of the electorate. People will forget in 9 months if nothing happens. But they will remember in spades if their rates go up, their taxes go up, they lose their employer-based insurance and, as Alex points out, they are left with no upside. Forget the progressive base, they’ll never regain the trust of the independents if they keep up this nonsense.
Best wishes,
-MFS
Tano in #1:
Nope.
Tano, the difference between healthcare reform and Obamacare is the difference between honest deliberation and premeditated gang rape.
Please, please, please sprinkle your superior, elite wisdom on us and defend Obamacare over a transparent process with all players having a seat at the table and openly deliberated on C-Span. Hows about they post the resulting bill on the internet for seven days before it is voted on? Don’t you think it would have been wonderful if Obama had come up with this idea?
Alex,
You lay out well the altrenate theory of this election season, but I am not convinced, for a couple of reaons.
“Indeed, if I were predicting electoral turnout now, I would assume that the right base is going to be more enthused and activated than the left base, and I would prefer to make my case to as many centers, and center rights as I could,”
I agree with the assumption – and that is the problem. You need an enthused base to support any foray to center – indeed it is often the enthusiasm of your base that tends to bring along people in the middle who get a sense of where all the excitment is in the campaigns and jump on the bandwagon.
If you sense your base is dispirited, then getting them engaged is job #1. You simply cannot win a competitive election if your base sits on their hands and the other guy’s base is fired up. With their enthusiasm, they will win their share of the middle – there will not be enough votes left there for you to compensate for your base staying home.
“As a vulnerable Dem, I would prefer that the bill dies, so I don’t have a publicly recorded vote on it”
Too late for that. Both houses already passed versions of the bill.
“And the fact that the American people hate many of their actual policies.”
Thats not really true. There are a few Dem positions that poll badly, but most are popular. And the opposite is true for Republicans.
Some empirical evidence on these points…
New ABC/WaPo poll:
By 63% to 34%, the people feel that lawmakers in DC should keep trying to pass a comprehensive health-care reform plan, vs .giving up.
58% of the people feel that Republicans are doing too little to compromise with Obama. 44% feel that Obama is doing too little to compromise with the GOP.
LINK
Tano – I know a physician at the VA. It’s not for lack of money that some VA facilities are in poor repair… much of the help is unionized and spends a fair amount of time filing grievances against the professional staff and management (that is not to say there are no conscientious and caring workers – there are). The stories would fill a book.
Also, Tano, you seem to think that conservatives are against any and all reforms. That is not correct. There are lots of common sense reforms that have been on the table for a long time. It’s not hard to find out about them with a little effort on your part.
I don’t trust the gummint to efficiently manage the healthcare system for the rest of us any better than they manage care at the VA or Indian Health Service (or the TSA for that matter).
Hells bells – the local gummint here can’t even coordinate traffic signals a block apart (but they never miss a chance to nag about carbon emissions).
Gene: As far as John Murtha… surgical accidents do happen – seeing as how sharp objects are involved. Mistakes and complications occur in the best facilities with the best physicians and nurses.
I forgot to add… we can’t afford Obamacare.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/14/taxes-social-security-opinions-columnists-medicare.html
Tano, in a vulnerable district and with a base enthusiasm gap, it is far more dangerous to lose those precious middles by pitching to the more-difficult-to-rouse-anyway left base. The better strategy would be taking the left base members you get for just being a Democrat and make up with the middles. Nancy Pelosi and Dennis Kucinich do not have to do this, but enough Dems do have to that this bill will become poison.
“Too late for that. Both houses passed versions of the bill”
Fair enough. Scratch from my comment “so I don’t have a publicly recorded vote;” replace with “so I can move on to other legislative agenda items that will better appeal to the middles I have to retain.”
Despite that correction, I stand by my and Dan’s point: enough Dems have personal career interests against passing Obamacare, and such interests intensify as time progresses, that passing this monstrosity is becoming less and less likely. Impossible? Maybe not yet, but the window is closing and the will is weakening.
And you’d be a lying sack of crap, as usual. It’s your dems opposed to this criminal travesty. The bipartisanship lies in the OPPOSITION to the exalted one.
Oh yea Tano, did you ever declare that you’re willing to let hundreds of thousands die while waiting for ObamaCareless?
Tano (#20) of poll-land tells us:
I am surprised it isn’t a higher number of people who want honest, openly deliberated, all parties invited to the discussion, comprehensive healthcare reform instead of Obamacare.
Tano, do you ever think out your links or do you just automatically lean toward something that tangentially complements your ideology?
Only the most screwed up questioning could lead to this farce of contradiction. If you support health care reform and reject Obamacare, as the Republicans do, what is there to compromise? On the other hand, if Obamacare is the basic program, what is Obama willing to compromise ……. which day of the week it begins?
58% of those polled think the GOP should help Obama take over a huge section of the economy. I doubt they were asked that. 44% of those polled agree that Obama should have coaxed the Republicans more in his take-over of a huge section of the economy. I doubt they were asked that, either.
Tano, you are forever trotting your polls in here. You can not really believe that you are making any inroads with your tripe.
If I were a spin machine employee, I would do what you are doing. I would float all manner of possible spin to gather the objections and then refine the spin. After all, the average ACORN seduced voter will join the Flat Earth Society if he is told he will see a government solution to his victim of society status.
As I told you (#17) and you so completely ignored:
But you insist on talking about healthcare reform when the issue is Obamacare. I guess buzzards only see road kill from one perspective.
Helio,
Thems a lot of words that really don’t amount to much beyond the fact that you are intent on being totally impervious to the real world.
The people support a comprehensive health-care reform being negotiated and passed. That is what the Dems have been trying to do for nearly a year now. They have compromised enormously already – there is no single payer system despite many on the left wanting that. Heck, there isn’t even a public option in the Senate bill. The Dems spent all last summer negotiating with the gang of six – Obama has tried constantly find some common ground with Republicans – to the point where he has massively teed off his own base, many of whom think he is far too willing concerned with what Republicans think than what his base thinks.
The American people see that quite clearly. They do not want Republicans, or Democrats to go to DC and try to ram through programs that their bases support. They want the two parties to go to DC and take a break from campaigning and actually get something done. The Dems have done that – as I mention above, they have compromised enormously already in terms of the general outlines of the bill.
With each passing day, I am getting more and more the impression that Obama just might end up turning recent events to his advantage. I hope he is a crafty enough politician to do so, because there really is an opening.
You guys seem convinced that the populist brouhahas of the moment are some rejection of Washington in general. I suspect it is more a rejection of dysfunction in Washington. If things were getting accomplished (and of course, if the economic recovery becomes more manifest at the street level), then the anger will lessen.
But each party, as well as you and me, we all have our own hypotheses as to what is going on in the country. There is no use arguing over it, because neither of us would ever buy into the worldview of the other, and it is right and proper that we offer alternative views. The people will decide and I guess we are both content to let that happen.
No, they’ve been trying to increase costs and bury the American people in even more regulation.
And stuck with trying to get Snowe, which was their plan in the first place. They gave up nothing in that process and stuck with Comrade Obama’s arbitrary deadline after stating publicly that they wouldn’t.
[Citation Needed]
In what alternate universe does a photo op or two constitute trying “constantly”????
I don’t believe for a second that you don’t support Statist tyranny.
Need a pair of bullshit boots in here. It just keeps getting deeper and deeper.
Oh ….. my …… gosh!!! Tano! Open deliberations. Everyone gets a seat at the table. The public sees it on C-Span. The bill on the internet for days before a vote. Remember that? Huh? Do you? And you have the brass to say this:
Are you insane? Or, do you think no one noticed that the Democrats rammed this whole thing up the rear end of the electorate? Have you no clue what is eating the TEA party movement? Do you think you can stand next to Pelosi and declare this the most “open” and “transparent” effort ever and everyone is going to swallow that bald faced lie? You have to be world class stupid to think that spin will dazzle the masses.
What astounds me about your “strategy” is that you will not and cannot admit that you had, until Scott Brown, all the necessary alignment of the stars to pull your sorry Obamacare off. But you couldn’t control your own party, so you have set upon Republicans for not coming over and picking up the slack.
It is OK in your world for Democrats to waver, but when the Republicans stand united it is “obstructionist.” Please, dear Tano, take your silly strategy down the hall to the sophomore club and stir them up.
Obama is a world class screw up. All his continued bluster and Mussolini chin in the air only lowers his effectiveness and approval ratings. He boxed himself behind the safety wall of the bull ring with loud bravado. The crowd is rooting for the bull and the matador is hoping the bull will make him look good. Now the crowd is booing the Matador and the Matador thinks he can win them back by arching his back and striking a pose.
Just how does the Matador start the match anew? The bull has been gored, he is fighting mad. He is drawing a bead on the Matador. The Matador is all style and no substance. So, the Matador calls for the bull to compromise. The Matador hopes the crowd will award him an ear when he kills the bull after a clumsy, cowardly strutfest with no class, no bravery, and no ownership.
And sweet Tano tosses the Matador a rose.
Ooops! I forgot to add that the libs are keen on allowing thousands to die and keeping tens of millions uninsured in an attempt hold on to their power.
Oh yeah,
Any economic recovery will become “more manifest” if the liberals don’t accomplish anything on their laundry list. The market tanked for 24 days, last year, after passage of the porkulus and it recovers more an more as the liberals fail.
If they shut their cakeholes and got the f**k out of people’s way, we could have a real recovery.
Tano, you are ignoring the fact that the compromise you describe was not a compromise with Republicans, who were all but shut out of the process of creating the bills, but with moderate Democrats, who feared the public option just as much. Don’t forget Ezra Klein’s point: To get something through the Democrats don’t have to compromise with Republicans. They had, and to a large extent still have big enough majorities to do what ever they can agree amongst themselves to do. The negotiations and log rolling were to try to cobble together a proposal that could be supported by a sufficient number of the members of one party. If they can pick up a Republican here or there, that’s makes it a prettier package, but is unnecessary to pass something.
Alex,
Lieberman was the key to the public option collapse, and he is as much a republican as a democrat, given that he was elected as an independent, and campaigned for John McCain.
I don’t buy your claim that the GOP was shut out of the process. I’ve heard many folks claim, even Obama said this, that 160 -some GOP amendments found their way into the Senate bill – and I have never heard any Republican deny that. We all saw the gang of six negotiations, and how Baucus insisted for months that he was going to do his best to get a much GOP support as he could. He did, in the end, get Snowe.
And all this happened within a context where some GOP leaders were quite explicit – that defeat of ANY healthcare reform was their goal – it was to be Obama’s Waterloo – a way to hand him a political defeat. They never gave a damn about the actual issue (well some of them indiviually may have, but not as a party).
I think Obama is going to exploit this fact. He is making a very public appeal for bipartisan cooperation. If the Republicans were to be serious, and actually come to the table with ideas about how to improve the bill (and no – just coming with demands that it end up being a Republican bill is not serious), then it would be hard for him, politically, to dismiss those ideas. He would have to put his actions where his mouth is and accept some of them.
I actually think he would be ok with that. But what seems most likely is that the GOP will prove to be totally irresponsible – they will grandstand a bit about starting the whole process over (as they already are), they will demand that the only acceptable bill is a total GOP fantasy bill, as if they had a majority mandate, and the one thing that they will not do is ever agree to anything (I have seen some reporting in the last day or two that confirms that). That will then give Obama and the Dems all the political cover they need to push the bills through the “House passes Senate bill, then both pass fixup bill, in the Senate through reconciliation” pathway.
In the end there will be major reinforcement of the meme that was illustrated in one of the polls I mentioned – that the American people credit Obama more than the GOP for trying work together to get things done. Obama will be seen as doing that once again – going the extra mile, and the GOP be the uncooperative ones. Plus, a bill will pass. Two big political wins for Obama.
Too late for that. Both houses already passed versions of the bill.
So since the bill has passed, no changes can be made to it.
There is no capacity to incorporate other ideas. The bill is established. Thus, it is clear that Obama is lying when he says he wants “new ideas”; he can’t put them into the bill anyway.
This is again no surprise. Obama, as you would expect from someone who says that graduates of public universities are intellectually inferior, thinks he can lie with impunity because people in his mind are too stupid to recognize when he’s lying. This is reinforced by his puppets like Tano, who support and endorse anything that he says.
They never gave a damn about the actual issue (well some of them indiviually may have, but not as a party).
You lie again, Tano.
Republicans have repeatedly offered plans on multiple occasions.
The Obama Party has blocked and refused to consider any of this. The screaming Obama has refused to consider any improvements or Republican ideas.
As mentioned before, Obama is simply lying. There is no capacity to make changes to the bills that were passed. Republicans should point out repeatedly the backroom deals, the payoffs for individual Obama Party politicians, the massive tax increases on individuals and businesses, the heavy mandates, and the cuts to benefits for seniors that are the Obama Party’s strategy.
Obama is accountable for every one of those provisions. Obama approved and endorsed the payoffs, the tax increases, the benefit cuts, and everything in that bill. Obama needs to be a man and own up to what he and his leftist party want.
And what the American people are realizing is that Barack Obama simply lies when he talks about “bipartisanship” — as we saw yesterday when he blabbered about it in his speech, and then his puppet came in and insulted Sarah Palin.
And there was even more.
Obama said he warned the Congressional leaders face-to-face that he will use his power to unilaterally fill some empty positions if the logjam in the Senate cannot be broken.
“I made this very clear — if the Senate does not act to confirm these nominees, I will consider making several recess appointments during the upcoming recess,” the president said. “We can’t afford to allow politics to stand in the way of a well-functioning government.”
Funny, Obama adamantly opposed recess appointments and screamed that there was no need to make them when he was in the Senate.
It’s just a pity that Tano lacks the intellectual consistency to recognize Obama’s lies. It’s becoming even more obvious that Tano is, exactly as GP said, a lickspittle, nothing more than a talking-points repeater who demonstrates the cancer that liberalism is to intellectual thought, discussion, debate, and politics.
Name them. If it’s true, then surely you won’t have any problem finding them and sharing them with us. What we have heard is liberal douchebags and the same from the WH chanting over and over that Republicans haven’t offered anything meaningful. And then the Professor claimed he never said it whilst in Baltimore.
So which is it? Did Republicans offer anything or not???
Au contraire. They DO give a damn which is why they oppose the Statist ass raping the liberals are proposing.
They can’t get it passed as is, so one would naturally conclude (unless you’re a dumbass) that starting over is necessary.
And what’s funny is that the lickspittle Tano is trying to spin even as the mainstream media recognizes and calls out that Obama’s calls for bipartisanship are a complete and total sham.
What these presidential appeals for bipartisanship always mean is: do it my way.
Mr. Obama said he “won’t hesitate to embrace a good idea from my friends in the minority party.” But he wants his way. He wants his energy policy enacted along with his jobs bill, his financial regulatory reform and his health care plan.
When even the network that published blatant lies on behalf of the Obama Party to attack Republicans is saying this, the scent of impending doom is overwhelming.
Look right now the public hates the liberals and has a growiing dislike for Obama. They agree with Republicans on every major issue. When Obama had that kind of high ground he did nothing but make fun of the opposition. Remember the “I won” comment. Nice for a President of all the people. Now that the conservatives have the high ground as his party can’t get anything done …..and his solutions have made the problems worse he wants to either bask in the sunlite of conservatives or contaminate them with the liberals aura. Why would any thinking opposition leader agree to that?
Why is it liberals can always play politics but no one else can?
And nobody’s laughing at/with Baghdad Bob Gibbs anymore.
Say Tano, while you’re looking for those 160 Republican ideas liberals supposedly adopted, perhaps you could find how many jobs Chairman Obama created or saved for the Ritz Carlton LV employees.
I’ve got a blunt question for liberal Democrats.
What is it with you people and black elected officials?
R Burress, sitting Senator from Ill…told by the old bulls of the party, no, you can’t run again.
Governor Patterson NY, sitting governor of NY, elected LT Governor of the state. Told by Democrat liberals, no, no, you can’t run again. You have to step down.
Former congressman H Ford TN. Moves to NY state like Hillary, thinks about running for Senator against a novice, white lady. But the old entrenched bulls of the liberals Democrat party say. No, Mr Ford, you can’t run here.
I think there was another man who wanted to run for head of the Democrat National Comm when nutty Howard Dean ran a few years back, he was black balled as well.
What exactly is their problem with elected black officials?
Boehner addressed the so called 160 Republican ideas in the Obama care bill. He said most were spelling corrections, paragraphs, capatalization errors. But of course to liberals this is a sign of bi partisianship.
You may recall that Lieberman ran for VP with Gore in 2000. You may recall that the Dems unceremoniously dumped him when he wouldn’t play ball on bashing Bush and minimizing the War on Terrorism. You may recall that Lieberman won his reelection as and “Independent.” You may recall that the Democrats crawled on their knees to fold him into their 60 seat super majority.
Tano, any one of the 60 Senators making up the super majority is “key” to anything the Obama thugocrats want to accomplish. They would crap all over Lieberman if they had two more seats. And now that you have to cry about the death of Obamacare due to Scott Brown, you step out front and start the crap on Lieberman dumpfest.
Why didn’t you brave, principled leftist/progressives just kick Lieberman down the stairs from the get go? Why did you sully your fine reputations by sucking up to him when you had a use for him? You guys play stick ball by ghetto rules.
I think I heard that in only 12 years of our 250 year history has a President of the same party had as big majorities in both houses as Obama teleprompter. So we are to listen to his and his parties whining about not getting anything done. Listen to the people. Do the peoples work not the liberal trolls.
They got their token in the WH to assuage their White Guilt. That’s all they need.