If House Democrats had the votes to pass the latest incarnation of the president’s health care overhaul, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi long since have scheduled the vote. And her minions wouldn’t be trying to figure out clever procedural gimmicks to ram it and cram it through the House.
I bet that if you had a vote tomorrow in the House on whether the chamber should push forward with some version of the Senate plan or start afresh, starting afresh would win a comfortable majority. (I know that’s not how they vote in Congress, it’s either yes or no on a particular piece of legislation or amendment thereto.) There would be Democrats voting to move on, er, start afresh,ssss that if you combined their tally with the Republican tally, you’d have a majority.
But, since the Democratic leadership sets the schedule in the House, they determine what gets voted on. And they want to pass a massive health care overhaul. It’s not that the grassroots is clamoring for it, well, some in the fringes of the grassroots are, but that Democratic leadership is insisting on it.
Americans have moved on. We’ve made up our minds about the Democrats’ proposed overhaul. And no matter how many more speeches–or campaign-style rallies–the Democrats hold, we’re not going to change our minds.
But, we do see what the Democratic leadership is made of–and the left-wing ideology which defines it.
This is actually true. What was hoped for in 2008 was solid Democratic support and a few Republicans joining. What we’ve found is conservative and corporatist Democrats wavering, and Republicans in absolute opposition. There’s still definitely a majority in favour of the overhaul in the senate, I don’t think anyone denies that, but there aren’t the 60 votes the Republicans are demanding.
I agree with this too, but what you fail to mention is that the Democrats and Republicans would both be in favour but for diametrically opposed reasons.
The Republicans think the strategy of overhaul with government involvement was flawed from day one, and want a different strategy focused around tort reform and deregulation to stimulate competition in the market.
The Democrats want the public option. As far as they’re concerned, any overhaul is meaningless without a strong public option to provide a large, non-profit insurance option to drive down prices.
So the Republicans want to scrap the entire strategy and go in a different direction, the Democrats want to go back to where we were about six months ago before the bills started getting stripped down in an attempt to get bipartisan support. Both sides are convinced the public are on their side, and the public calling for congress to “start again” can be interpreted either way, though I tend to think interpreting it as support for the Republican way is more of a stretch.
Now this is just dishonest. Of course the grassroots are in favour of a massive healthcare overhaul! They’ve been clamouring for it for decades! What I’ve been hearing from the grassroots is along the lines of “Stop thinking the Republicans will ever support you and just use reconciliation to pass the overhaul without them”. The grassroots are to the left of the current leadership, of that there can be no doubt.
Who’s this ‘we’? I reflected earlier that you seem to be masters of projection. You see the public calling to scrap the current bill and start over, and think of that as support for your view against government involvement in healthcare. I see the same and see it as the public being disgusted with the evisceration of the healthcare bill, and a desire to see the reintroduction of the public option that polled so well back when it was on the table.
With the public option as left-wing and tort reform/deregulation as right-wing, the Democratic leadership is currently sitting bang in the centre. But then ‘left-wing’ isn’t a political ideology around these parts, it’s a pejorative for anyone you don’t like.
Serenity: You do love to live in lala land, but I can guarantee you that the MAJORITY of American’s want this bill dead. Dead and buried. WE want to be able to buy across state lines. We want to be able to get the same deal the Canadians DIDN’T earn or pay for on the drugs. We did. to support their incompetent for runner of the same mess you would force on us.
Of course then where will your Canadian friends go to actually get health care.
Oh.. and by the way? I am by birth a Canadian. quite happy I am NOT up there for healthcare, and down here where I am expected to pay for my own, like a grown up the left will never be, but I get the best, than the garbage they, and you would force on the masses.
Get over yourself. REAL Americans hate this health care take over grab attempt.
Think of health care reform as pizza. If someone proposed that the government buy everybody pizza once a week, it would probably poll pretty well.
Then, people would learn the details. There are only going to be two kinds of pizza, plain and anchovy. And not only that, private pizza companies will only be allowed to make the two kinds of pizza the Government does. And “Pizza Reform” is going to cost a trillion over ten years. The pizza will be made to school cafeteria standards. And anyone who doesn’t want pizza will be forced to pay a fine to subsidize other people’s pizza.
This is a pretty close analogy to the way ObamaCare “Reforms” health insurance.
Now, when some people say, “I don’t like what you’re proposing. I’d rather continue to have a choice and pay for my own pizza,” the pizza reforms advocates say, “What’s wrong? Don’t you want everyone to have pizza? Why so selfish?”
Obviously, there are better ways to reform the system than restricting choice and driving up costs. Unfortunately, it is the Goal of Democrats to restrict choice and drive-up costs.
I love the pizza analogy. And it is truewith anything “run” (and we know they dont supervise anything they do) by the government and paid by the taxpayers – that it is subpar, uniform, top-heavy and not very well-managed. Obama has said in the past he is for a public option and this is just the way forward on that…liberals are always sticking their nose in everyone’s business and trying to control them. Once they have the gov’t agencies in place to control health care delivery, look out!! They are already trying to control inland waters. These people never stop. They should get a life.
Must-read piece in WaPo today from two Democratic pollsters, Pat Caddell and Doug Schoen: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031102904.html
Amen!
As for Serenity:
That seems about right.
But that one was pure blather in its original form, and I had to fix it. (My fix begins with the strikeout.)
Now that is just dishonest, Serenity. Unless you’re talking about the grassroots of some completely different country, like say Cuba or North Korea.
The American people, Serenity. By large majorities. See my post just about this one, then look at some of the numbers the pollsters cite or follow their embedded links to other pollsters.
And that is complete nonsense. You see, whether or not the bill includes your so-called “public option” at this time, the whole thing is a public option. The whole thing (further) burdens American health care with so much in terms of mandates, programs, taxes, spending and regulations, that it *is* a government takeover of health care, whether or not it leaves health care nominally in private hands. So, it is left-wing. It is socialism, in the broad sense. (If you want to use the word “socialism” in the narrower sense of literal government takeover, then “fascism” would be the technical term for what the Democrats are up to.)
Sorry, typo, “my post just -above- this one”
P.S. Another measure of the left-wing ideology behind the health care push (Dan’s title) would be the blatantly unconstitutional character of both the bill itself (i.e. mandates), and the profoundly unconstitutional and anti-democratic means by which the Democrats now propose to pass the measure.
(e.g. the Slaughter Solution, abuses of Reconciliation, etc.)
What’s always so funny in these pieces is when the writers talk about the “majority” wanting the bill dead. They never mention the fact that the “majority” hates the bill because they’ve absorbed Republican lies about what’s IN the bill, but that it shifts back to majority SUPPORT for overhaul when it’s explained to voters what’s actually IN the bill.
It’s the constant Republican strategy: keep the voters as stupid as possible. It’s just always so hard to tell whether the talking/bloggingheads are stupid like the voters or evil like the corporate entities ginning up fake “grassroots” opposition to it.
I’ll give the benefit of the doubt here: I don’t think the writers here are evil.
Well, at least you concede that much of reality.
Ah, yes. Those pesky, “stupid” voters. The stupid American people. If only America were a dictatorship, then it would have a glorious socialist future, eh Evan?
Ah, that Canard. V already answered it:
They never mention the fact that the “majority” hates the bill because they’ve absorbed Republican lies about what’s IN the bill
Actually, the most effective Republican strategy has been to simply point out what’s in the bill, i.e. the Cornhusker Kickback.
The problem is that Evan and the rest of the Obama worshipers simply are so divorced from reality that they see unicorns and skittles everywhere they look. Even though the bill clearly cuts Medicare benefits, something that even Barack Obama had to admit in the health care “summit”, Evan and his fellow Obama worshipers insist that it does not and that any attempts to say otherwise are “lies”.
Here’s a question, Evan; why is it your belief that only you are correct and that all voters are stupid? Is it because of your sexual orientation?
The pizza we had in school wasn’t too shabby. Not what I would want to eat all the time though.
Did I ever say all voters are stupid, NorthDallasThirty?
No, just voters like you. And actually yeah, a great majority of American voters are pretty stupid when it comes to matters of governing and policy, because our current media encourages ignorance. They encourage people to use flyover-country “common sense” rather than actual policy knowledge or anything that smacks of book larnin’.
But as I said before, actual polling shows that when the actual elements of the bill (not the fever dreams of wingnuts) are explained, it’s got broad support. You just have to make sure voters understand which things are actual elements of the bill and which are just giblets from Sarah Palin’s illiterate vomit.
And no, sweetheart, it doesn’t cut Medicare benefits. This has been explained time and time again, but there’s no use trying to explain things to to the mental equivalent of huffed paint, so I’m certainly not going to waste my time. Perhaps you can find a copy of the bill and read it for yourself, or maybe have someone read it to you. I’m very sorry it doesn’t have any pictures, though. Maybe they’ll come out with a pop-up version?
Also? These people were duly elected. If you don’t like the bill they pass, then campaign against it, and if you regain a majority try to repeal it. (Fat chance of that happening, of course, because once it’s passed and people start benefiting from it, the GOP wouldn’t DARE repeal it. That’s why they’ve been lying about the bill from the start, because they know they can’t argue with it on policy terms.)
The comment about “Obama worshippers” is hilarious, since I’ve been calling the administration out on its ass since he was inaugurated, but that goes against your narrative, and thus yoy can’t grasp it. I understand that and I meet you where you are, rather than where I’d like you to be mentally.
Oh, and the pizza analogy is completely backward, so a giant gold star is awarded for that one. (Also, PS: Part of the reason for the low polling on HCR is that progressives are pissed off about it. Hate to break it to you. Remember when public approval sank? It was when the public option was removed and the Senate started buying off conservatarded Democrats like Nelson and Lieberman.
Anyway, no need to expect another response, because I have no desire to hang out at your little intellectual Chernobyl any longer. Bored!
Did I ever say all voters are stupid, NorthDallasThirty?
Yup.
It’s just always so hard to tell whether the talking/bloggingheads are stupid like the voters
Next:
And no, sweetheart, it doesn’t cut Medicare benefits. This has been explained time and time again, but there’s no use trying to explain things to to the mental equivalent of huffed paint, so I’m certainly not going to waste my time.
Well, first, we have the CBO, which had to read the bill in order to score it, stating that benefits would be reduced.
And then we have the author, chief promoter, and pusher himself stating that benefits would be reduced.
3:05 p.m.: Obama clarifies that cuts would apply to Medicare Advantage, an enhanced Medicare benefits program.
Now, the stupid one here would seem to be the person who was screaming at the top of his lungs that no benefits would be cut when there is clear, obvious evidence from the people who have read AND written the bill that benefits would be cut.
But then again, we can’t expect a “real gay” like yourself to do actual research, versus just repeating Obama Party talking points. That would be too much of that “common sense” to be actually referring to the facts versus doing exactly what the Obama Party tells you to do. Besides, you’re a minority, so you’re not expected to be capable of thought. That’s why you have the Obama Party — because everyone else expects you to do things right, versus just patting you on the head and telling you that everything you do is right because you’re LGBT.
I’ll take “Things Progs Say When They’re Losing an Argument for $200, Alex.”
Was that the category? Or was it “Promises That Never Come True”?
This may be a dumb question, but if the “public option” has overwhelming popular support, why is it not in the bill?
For the libs who troll here:
and you ignore the incontrovertible fact that there have been untold targets and villains and causes and predictions and reasons for “health care reform” floated by Pelosi, Reid, Obama, et al since the whole sideshow began in early 2009. Then you show up with statements like this:
What, pray tell, is the overhaul? 2,000+ pages of jargon and constant wrangling over what it says and there is a majority in favor of the overhaul in the Senate as if it is no more complicated than rearranging the colors on a stop light?
That verges on the impossible. I don’t get it. If you listen to Republicans you are saps who feed on lies. Then you get turned back into informed mainstream educated voters when the Democrats speak. How does that work?
This nebulous “overhaul” terminology is about as useful as hope and change. I would like the libs to lay out what is in the overhaul with which they are so intimately familiar and which they so totally favor. And, I would like to know what all the constant Democrat meetings and chatter about adding this and taking out that is about behind closed doors.
But, alas, there is scant chance that any lib troll is really interested in dealing with facts.