In the past few days, Nick and I have come to (metaphorical) blows over our difference son “Draw Mohammed Day.” We did have a good conversation last night over the phone where we resolved, with each making a bit of sacrifice, to handle the situation as we did yesterday.
And since I think Nick is a swell fellow, when, before my drive went south (metaphorically not geographically) today, I called him to share an insight I was sure he would enjoy. (It’s always nice to agree than disagree with your friends.) Because of the connection, he didn’t hear everything I had to say, but he did get the gist of it.
So, now comfortably ensconced in my hotel, let me elaborate. As our readers know, I take offense at Draw Mohammed Day because it gratuitously mocks religion — just as I have long taken offensive at the juvenile antics of the gay men who style themselves the “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence,” dressing up as nuns and rollerblading around on Pride Day.
I wonder why is it that all too many in our community condone (celebrate even) this mockery of the Catholic faith, yet remain silent on a faith which persecutes people like us? Why don’t we those who would mock Catholicism (whose extremists may judge homosexuality harshly), but refrain from mocking Islam (whose extremists murder homosexuals)?
It probably has something to do with the Catholic church being a more local and immediate antagonist towards the gay community. The catholic church has been mocking gays and intimidating gays and hurling all kinds of accusations against gays corrupting the society for decades now. Radical Islamists want to kill Americans period, they don’t target American gays specifically and even if they did, terrorist attacks aren’t something that any American needs to fear on a day to day basis here in the United States.
If the Catholic Church can dish it out, then they should expect to take it. And again, I’d like to reiterate how silly it is to automatically respect the absurd ceremonies and special pleadings of any religion simply because it’s a religion. As if invoking whatever God you believe in means you should get to say and do whatever you want without people making fun of you for it.
I think we should draw Muhammad and I spent about a day putting down my thoughts on the topic, including a response to Dan’s reservations about insulting another religion.
http://shortshrifts.wordpress.com/
To paraphrase the first comment, it probably has something to do with the plain fact that Muslims who take exception to their religion being mocked often do so by killing the mockers. The Catholics? meh. They only call you sinners. Yes, some of them mock and hurl accusations. Muslims decapitate and hurl large rocks. Rather like the reactions of some members of the California GLBT community who discovered that Mormons are a safe target to attack, compared with African-Americans, as when you call the African-Americans filthy names, they come and beat the stuffing out of you. That explains, better than any other hypothesis, why insulting any Christian religion is “okay”, while insulting the “Religion of Peace” is not.
Well a) there’s a very small minority of Muslims in the US, .6% to the 78% of Christian religions (there’s more Buddists than Muslims in the US) and most people don’t focus on it much unlike paranoid neocons and b) did you see a recent episode of the Big Gay Sketch Show where they do a parody of The Hills except they’re Muslim women in the middle east so it’s called The Caves?
Another strawman argument I see.
Dan, you can’t really be this naive. You seriously don’t why gay leftists mock Christianity and won’t mock Islam?
Leftists dislike and distrust traditional American culture. So they naturally dislike and distrust Christianity as the traditional religion of the United States.
Islam, however, is foreign and exotic. So it is to be respected and praised. Besides, Muslims are third-worlders and therefore victims of white European colonialism, which lefties consider to be one of the greatest evils ever.
[Dave, do hope you realize I saw the title question of this post as rhetorical. My analysis of the situation (as per my past posts) is similar to your own. I appreciate comments like yours for helping spell it out. –Dan :-)]
Yep. You have a huge sweet spot for religion, Dan. It’s far bigger than I feared.
EDMD doesn’t mock religion. It mocks one very stupid and idolatrous tenet of one religion.
And the mockery isn’t gratuitous. Not in the slightest. It is occurring only because a school of Islam considers itself above all criticism and will use violence to silence its critics. (See my comment to your post “My Objection to Draw Mohammed Day.”)
All Muslims must learn such behavior will not be tolerated.
Nobody did. Which leaves one to wonder: How does a sketch on a show nobody watches, created by an ignorant cow, disprove what Dan wrote?
Fear.
Catholics will just give them a pained or dirty look when ridiculed. A Moslem will wage a jihad on them.
It was the same reason that gays attacked the Mormon church during Prop 8 but left the black and hispanic churches alone.
Typical bully
I generally deplore the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence because their ossified schtick makes a mockery of Fresh and Entertaining Comedy, but…
…having said that, I’m not sure if the guys in the picture are necessarily mocking Catholicism. I mean, I suspect a lot of people would look at that photo and think, “Oh, look, it’s a couple of Evil Space Clowns in 1920s flapper-drag” — mistaking the cornettes for some sort of Easter-Parade bonnets. My point is that a “nun’s costume” can become so stylized that at some point it essentially ceases to make fun of nuns.
Argh, I can say “point” again if you want me to.
It does come down to picking on a target that won’t fight back. (i.e. Kill you). I see it in the D/s community too. It offends me, but I deal with it.
Personally I’ve always wondered at the mixed message it sends. “So if we pray for them they mock us, if we kill them they leave us alone…” Fortunately for Western Civilization, Christianity outgrew its angry adolesence some time ago.
Oh and Levi? 83 days and you still having found a successful socialist country?.
Fear? Really?
It’s simple demographics. As the other poster noted, there are far more Christians in this country than Muslims. Christians are usually behind the initiatives and maneuvers to exclude or otherwise marginalize gay people in this country.
Wow, how is this not obvious?
Dan, there could be different reasons for different individuals why Catholicism is mocked, but not Islam. At least three were given in this thread alone. Heck, fear apparently was the reason that Comedy Central censored an episode much less offensive to Islam than episodes that were more offensive to Catholicism. And this was one of the reasons for EDMD.
And I do get the reason that because there are much fewer Moslems than Christians, a lot of people do give Moslems a free pass. But let’s face it. I’m afraid to say that we are much better off having 78% Christians as opposed to 78% Moslems. It just seems like most countries with such dominance of Moslems are repressive, not just to gay persons, but to women, or the whole citizenry.
It was the same reason that gays attacked the Mormon church during Prop 8 but left the black and hispanic churches alone.
While a lot of people gave Black and Hispanic churches a free pass (although I didn’t), I thik the reason why the Mormon church got the brunt of it was because of all the money they spent on Prop. 8.
And again, Levi still can’t back up his comments with facts. Pathetic littlie coward, liar, and lickspittle is Levi. Of course, given his ignorance of how the government works and embracing a system that has 150 million dead+ under it’s banner, why should we be surprised he hates Christianity? After all it was the work of the Pope and two Protestants that helped bring his socialist utopia down, freeing millions.
I still think most everything comes down to respect.
Either you were raised to respect others’ ideas, values and things they may respect, if for no other reason but common decency and peace-keeping, or you weren’t.
Now, murdering people in the name of (fill-in-the-blank) changes the rules. However, because we as humans seem to have degenerated into whiney, selfish, petty individuals and groups DEMANDING respect and that others ‘value’ what we do…we’ve lowered the bar so far down…that it doesn’t surprise me that someone thinks they are ‘holding the line’ somewhere by threatening to kill offenders who disrespect ideas dear to them.
I think this is true whether it’s Mohammed’s depiction, our freedom of speech, someone’s value of marriage, another’s respect for a nun, or still another’s desire to be left alone and not ‘forced’ to accept/tolerate ‘anything’.
Why don’t we those who would mock Catholicism (whose extremists may judge homosexuality harshly), but refrain from mocking Islam (whose extremists murder homosexuals)?
One more thing, Dan. Isn’t this exactly what happened yesterday (mocking Islam) in your view? It wasn’t just conservatives who participated, but the left as well.
Depends on the POV, Pat.
I mean I don’t look at it as mocking the Muslim Cashier at the local UDF, or a Muslim I work with. It’s aimed at the people who want me dead for being 1/4 Jew, or you dead for your choice of bedmate, or want my mom dead because she’s an educated woman.
It’s more of saying, “You want Mark Steyn and others? Come and Take Them”
THIS! IS! AMERICA! *chestkick*
Livewire, I agree. But I thought that one of the reasons Dan disagreed with EDMD was because Islam is being mocked. But whether one views this as mocking or not, this is an instance where many on the gay left are not giving Islam a free pass.
Levi in #1 strips bare and it is not a pretty sight:
What happened in little Levi’s life of licentious lust to loose such lame and limp labored loathing?
Crush the Catholics and a thousand gay blooms will blossom.
Actually, Levi, it is the Sons of Ralph and the Daughters of Phoebe who are really behind the conspiracy to mock gays and make gays look like fools when they do their parades dressed up like normal flamingoes in heat.
Lets see…. mocking a religion that can only condemn me from the podium or mocking a religion that issues fatwahs that result in my death….. HMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Probably because Catholic Church and Christian Religious Conservatives have more power and a longer history with the Gay Community in the US than Muslims do. The two have been going at it since at least the 60’s, and really since the beginning. I see plenty of people mocking Muslims for their treatment of woman, so its not like it never happens.
It usually seems that most of the efforts to ban gay marriage or gay adoptions or so on, are lead by well known figures of the Christian community. I believe that is what it leads them to be openly targeted and mocked by the gay community.
… except, Dan, that it doesn’t.
(continued) All it does is … draw Mohammed, an actual figure from history.
That’s not an act of mockery, it’s one of the basic acts of both art and scholarship. Most basically, it is an act of creation (while mockery goes more in the direction of destruction). That self-appointed fascist defenders of Islam would kill people who engage in the basic human creative act, of making a drawing of a historical figure, is profoundly evil and well worthy of challenging.
Furthermore, Dan, your premise that it must offend the real religion of Islam is arguable.
Since they are actually engaged in mockery, not in the basic human creative act of making a drawing, that comparison is really reaching. Still, I acknowledge and entirely agree with your main point about them:
Speaking only for myself (of course), I think it’s perfectly alright to mock any religion. Rude, yes, but permitted nonetheless. Mocking Islam is certainly more likely to get you killed, since so many of them are f**king radical nutjobs. (What was it that I read on another website? Ah yes – “Radical Islam is a tautology”.)
I identify as catholic (small “c”, since I no longer support the RCC) but I don’t find the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence to be mocking so much as maybe satire. I view them more as theater, especially since one of the things they do is raise money for AIDS-related charities, which I think is a good thing. If you can have fun doing it, more power to ya.
Just my thoughts anyway.
I love the Sisters and first encountered them years back at a Seattle PRIDE event.
The Abbey of St. Joan, in Seattle, Washington, continues the mission of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Over the years, we have grown, but our mission has remained unchanged. We continue to educate the public on safer sex issues, we fight for queer rights and visibility, we address women’s issues and the needs of homeless youth, and support other community organizations that share our vision.
We are often asked, “Why are you mocking nuns?” Well, we ARE nuns, silly! We recognize what “women of the cloth” have done over the centuries. They raise money for the needy, we raise money for the needy. They tend to the sick, we tend to the sick. They build their communities, we build our community. They have taken vows of celibacy, we… we have raised money for the needy. We are nuns for the 21st Century!
from the Abbey of St Joan website
rusty,
My only objection to that statement is ‘nun’ has had a specific meaning, calling yourself a ‘nun’ doesn’t make it so, any more than me calling myself ‘a poor black child’ would (with hat tip to Steve Martin).
It’s like when I go to church (and don’t get hit by lightning) I see a ‘pastor’ not a ‘priest’
So, rusty is arguing that it’s okay for the Sisters to mock people’s religious beliefs because they (claim to) do good deeds.
Does that mean he’s okay with churches that are otherwise “homophobic” because they do charitable work? Or is this a one way street?
I mean, I am assuming the could do all the same good works they claim to do with out the nun fetish ensembles. So, obviously, they do dress up that way quite deliberately.
V the K,
Well apparently it works for Hezbolla, as the administration wants to open talks with them.
Making a religion of being gay certainly completes the circle of fatuous indulgence.
As a straight man of faith, it is clear to me that if you can’t get religious sanction for random buggery, your only recourse is mockery. Okay by me, but do not mistake indifference to your dog and pony show for acquiescence.
However, I do wonder if you expect the world to go ballistic if and when the Muslims start beheading gays. You lib gays expend so much vitriol of those who hate the sin but love the sinner that it is confusing why you do not seem to be disturbed by radical Islam which just plain hates gays. I think you are so agenda driven you have lost your sight, your brains and your right to respect. Nonetheless, lib gay, I love you man.
Well if I have to endure “Piss Christ” and images of Madonna made from dung without chopping off heads, methinks Muslims can do likewise.
Draw Muhammad Day may not be completely charitable but it is necessary against the kind of tyranny Muslim extremists would just love to bring to us wee folk in the Dar al-Harb. Besides, as one can see at zombie’s website there are plenty of images of Muhammad from Muslims sources without these idiots going ballistic because someone “dares” show the “Prophet’s” supposed face.
As for the “Sisters”, I don’t care what they’re peddling. Come up to me dressed like that and I’m not buying. I don’t care what their cause is or how many supposedly good deeds they do.
One more thing, people act as if this is something new. It’s not. Look up the history of iconoclasm in Christianity and pay special attention to when and why it originated in the Eastern Empire…
What happened in little Levi’s life of licentious lust to loose such lame and limp labored loathing?
Crush the Catholics and a thousand gay blooms will blossom.
Actually, Levi, it is the Sons of Ralph and the Daughters of Phoebe who are really behind the conspiracy to mock gays and make gays look like fools when they do their parades dressed up like normal flamingoes in heat.
Do you really think you know me so well?
I’m not gay, I’ve never been to church a day in my life, and I’ve been in one serious relationship that is about to enter into its seventh year. So much for your theory about my lustful, amoral existence, eh helio?
I’m posting in this thread as an outsider of both gay and religious communities, and from my perspective, American Christians have done far more to vilify and marginalize gay people than American Muslims. The Catholic Church has been spreading misery throughout the gay community for decades through their propaganda and insincere moral proclamations. There are too many examples of Pat Robertson blaming the latest calamity on gay people to deny this. What have American Muslims done? Certainly they’re intolerant of the lifestyle and if they were in the majority, they’d be the gays’ primary antagonists, but if the assertion is that they’re worse for the gays in America than the Christians, you’re just raving and delusional.
How entertaining…
Levi thinks Pat Robertson is Catholic.
I should also point out, again, 84 days and no example of Levi’s socialist utopia.
All I can say is that I personally don’t know enough about Muslims to mock them very much and most of what I do know is too unfunny for me to satirize. Kathy Griffin, however, did a long bit on this in her act when she went to Iraq and Afghanistan as part of a USO show. She’s definitely a liberal. So it’s not that no one has. Personally, I think most of us don’t have much experience.
And on a personal note: I have to keep my mouth shut about any criticisms of the RCC in front of a good many friends because they get so emotional and defensive, not matter how factual and legitimate the criticism. But at least they don’t make death threats.
1. I like this comment below from number 26, The Livewire — it made me laugh out loud:
“My only objection to that statement is ‘nun’ has had a specific meaning, calling yourself a ‘nun’ doesn’t make it so, any more than me calling myself ‘a poor black child’ would (with hat tip to Steve Martin).”
Good one Livewire!
2. I liked this comment below from # 32 Levi — it made me laugh out loud:
“The Catholic Church has been spreading misery throughout the gay community for decades through their propaganda and insincere moral proclamations. There are too many examples of Pat Robertson blaming the latest calamity on gay people to deny this.”
Silly Levi– Trix are for kids…facts are for adults, hopefully before you die, you’ll figure out the difference. I can’t remember the last time a Catholic Priest, or any Catholic for that matter, built a television ministry by promising donors compound interest in the after-life.
Perhaps I could re-name you “Levi’s.” Would you mind ? As your Gay Patriot comments are always below the belt, like my beloved jeans….it’s only one additional “s” to your comment name… what do you think?
It is bigotry, plain and simple. I’m sorry that liberal gays feel the need to justify their lack of class.