The Curious Incredulity of* Gay Conservatives’ Liberal Interlocutors
Broadly speaking, there are two types of reactions we get when we come out as conservative to our gay peers, particularly to those who have never previously met a “homocon.” To be sure, there is also a third type of reaction we get, but that from those who more regularly interact with gay conservatives and who are truly familiar with the ideas undergirding modern American conservatism. And while it may seems sometimes that most who meet us respond with bile and vitriol, we only report those stories more often because they provide greater entertainment and reveal much about a growing strain of intolerance inherent in the new American left.
We also tend to remember such dramatic confrontations more readily than we more polite and genuinely curious expressions of incredulity. And that type of incredulity seems to be the more common reaction, gay men and lesbians who seem legitimately astounded that someone so intelligent, sensitive and interesting could support ideas or back the political party whose guiding principle, they have been taught to believe, is preserving straight white male privilege. Unlike the “third type” mentioned above, they have little real experience with real conservatives and almost no understanding of Republican ideals. They don’t know the history of the conservative movement and remain unfamiliar with the everyday concerns of rank-and-file Republicans.
All they know is what gets filtered through the mainstream media, what they learn in conversations with their friends and, increasingly, what they find presented in various social media. They have rarely met actual conservative individuals and have had almost no exposure to our web-sites, magazines, editorial pages nor have they read books which articulate our ideals.
It is no wonder then that when I met last week Mito Aviles, that energetic challenger running for West Hollywood City Council, was surprised to learn that a gay man who had the same concerns about our city as he, could identify with the GOP. He politely listened as I outlined the ideas which formed the backbone of my conservative “ideology,” expressing opposition to the growing size and increasing scope of government at all levels and articulating my trust in individuals — and the associations we freely enter — to set their own courses, my belief that entrepreneurs (and artists) are a necessary creative force in our society and a conviction that they should be left alone to provide the goods and services we needed. When we give them the freedom to experiment, produce and market their ideas, we are all the better for it.
I could not (yet) convince Mito of the merits of my political philosophy, but I did get him to listen. I could tell from his facial expressions that he was truly interested in my response. And that is one reason I endorsed him. He does not harbor an ineradicable animus against right-wingers, just has, like many of our gay peers, a limited understanding of his (presumed) ideological adversaries.
It is important that we gay conservatives bear that in mind. Many of those ideological adversaries do have open minds. We may not be able to convince such folk to change their political affiliation, but we may at least be able to persuade them them of the sincerity of our own conservative convictions.
——–
*(many, but also not all)
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Lol, poor you. The way people on here talk about “the gay left” I wonder what you do to provoke such reactions. All you people do is talk down about other gays, perpetuate false heteronomative behavior as some kind of litmius test to being a man, and seem to get off on whining against gay rights at every turn. In fact you continually talk about the “gay left” as playing the victim and yet here you are, crying.
Get back to me when you actually know what discrimination feels like. Because in my experience most gays are fine with gay conservatives, its when they break out into their typical gay hate that everyone has an issue.
Comment by Doom — March 3, 2011 @ 2:19 pm - March 3, 2011
I was wondering if this post was going to bring out the trolls. I guess the answer is ‘yes’.
Good catch on the religious bigot being the #1 poster. Unfortunately he’s too small. Throw him back.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 3, 2011 @ 2:36 pm - March 3, 2011
Lol, yes all those Christians face so much discrimination each day.
Christian is the new black huh? But then according to you guys I’m also a racists who hates black people.
Comment by Doom — March 3, 2011 @ 4:14 pm - March 3, 2011
1. Let me guess, you took Gay and Lesbian studies? perhaps gender studies?
2. You do realize that is meaningless, pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook, right? No, of course you don’t.
Comment by American Elephant — March 3, 2011 @ 4:56 pm - March 3, 2011
What amazes me is how they think that if they can just come up with the right combination of insulting and condescending behavior, they’ll get us to admit that black is indeed white. It’s like there’s an alternate universe where debates are resoloved not on the basis of being right or being able to support one’s position… but on the basis of being snotty.
Comment by DaveP. — March 3, 2011 @ 5:09 pm - March 3, 2011
Dan, Incredulity is only natural from people whose entire identity is dependent on the crutch of false and feigned victimhood, when others from that supposed victim group thrive while rejecting their phony crutch.
Comment by American Elephant — March 3, 2011 @ 5:13 pm - March 3, 2011
If you had to guess how many of your posts are on not getting the respect you feel you deserve for being a gay conservative how many would that be? I understand you feel slighted but don’t you think you might just be playing into the whole “Victim Mentality” you decry so much?
Comment by Tim — March 3, 2011 @ 5:30 pm - March 3, 2011
Oh. Is it a pissing match? Or am I to believe that discrimination from the intolerant liberal bigots doesn’t count? How about Calypso Louie’s rants about Zionism? Is that not anti-Semitism merely because he’s a favorite pet of the liberal left?
Please favor us with your “experiences”.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 3, 2011 @ 5:31 pm - March 3, 2011
I would guess about 97% of them would fit that category.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 3, 2011 @ 5:37 pm - March 3, 2011
When Millions of your relatives are marched into gas chambers, Dooms, then you can talk to me about discrimination.
See, I can make trite phrases too. Unfortunately, intelligent discourse is beyond Dooms’ bigoted little mind.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 3, 2011 @ 5:48 pm - March 3, 2011
Great photo of the Young Gay Conservative
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20031524-503544.html
20-year-old college student Kevin Zabel, a gay conservative, at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington
These new faces are out there chatting up their buddies. . .
but the article goes with
The music was blaring at a party for gay conservatives in Washington on Thursday night, and 22-year-old college student Matt Hissey was declaring victory.
Hissey had been asked about the decision by some social conservatives, including the Family Research Council and Sen. Jim DeMint, to boycott the Conservative Political Action Conference over the involvement of gay conservative group GOProud.
“The whole idea about conservatism is about individual freedom, individual liberty,” said Hissey, a GOProud volunteer and a “very conservative” supporter of Sarah Palin. “And they have the total right to disagree with me, but who won the PR battle here? We did. So they are more than welcome to feel that way, and act upon it, and try to lobby their supporters, but they lost in the end.”
Will have to wait to see who gets to play in the big SAND BOX at CPAC 2012 under that big tent of inclusivity. Methinks those young folk are changing hearts and minds but to what extent?
Comment by rusty — March 3, 2011 @ 5:48 pm - March 3, 2011
As a child of a Red state, with a large extended Red family, like so many of your woe-is-me postings in the past, I can only offer one question in response. Would you like some cheese with your whine?
Comment by Countervail — March 3, 2011 @ 6:18 pm - March 3, 2011
People like Doomed, Auntie Bigot, Counterfail et al simply reinforce the truth about how much the GayLibLeft is on the DNC plantation (and yes, the slavery reference is obligatory and very descriptive).
Here’s the truth, whether you like it or not, libtrolls:
Conservatives like you for WHO you are. Libtards like you for WHAT you are.
Prove me wrong.
Regards,
Peter H.
Comment by Peter Hughes — March 3, 2011 @ 6:18 pm - March 3, 2011
It’s always difficult to live according to one’s principles. Yet to that person the principled life is worth living.
Of course, as a human being matures in life, one realizes that life is not so black and white, that one’s ideology may need tempering. Then one must think for oneself, and judge the merits of each argument through the prism of pragmatic reality because one can’t always have one’s way.
I feel the hard-core conservatives and liberals will be forever out of the political mainstream. Americans are not ideologically inclined, much less gay Americans, since the preferred stance is center-right (but just a little to the right). Both parties have failed in recent decades, and need to grow up too. And work a little more closely together instead of adopting expedient yet false adversarial positions.
Comment by Bryan — March 3, 2011 @ 6:32 pm - March 3, 2011
Amusing how many of our critics trot out their template to comment on this post. They see it as saying what they want it to say and me as offering the tone I offer not in most of my posts, but in their imagination.
This is not a whiny post, not in the least. I’m making an observation which both Doom and Tim clearly miss. Let me give you a clue just by how wide a margin they miss the mark. I give one example in the post of the curious incredulity referenced in the title. That example is Mito Aviles — whom, let me put this in italics and bold so they get it I endorsed for West Hollywood City Council. Yeah, I know he’s a gay Democrat. Yeah, I know he was surprised to learn someone was curious about his candidacy, eager to support him, engaging in conversation (:-)), yet who happened to be both gay and a Republican.
But, I give his example to show that he listened, that he treated me courteously, as do most such people. In this most, I indicated at the outset that the intolerant ones are a distinct, albeit outspoken and sizable, minority. And yes, I do note that many people have a skewed view of the modern Republican party and the burgeoning conservative movement.
But, despite this prejudice, as I noted in my closing (and most consequential) paragraph that we need bear in mind that some of our adversaries have open minds and we may be able to persuade them about the sincerity of our beliefs.
Amazing how, in their haste to take offense, some of our critics missed the point of the post. If anything, it was an upbeat post, serving as a reminder to fellow conservatives that our adversaries may well be open to our ideas.
Comment by B. Daniel Blatt — March 3, 2011 @ 6:45 pm - March 3, 2011
#14 When you stand in the middle of the road, you’re eventually gonna get hit. Pick a lane and stick with it. Hazy shades of ambiguous gray may seem comforting, but that’s not reality.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 3, 2011 @ 7:02 pm - March 3, 2011
Go to any number of conservative blogs/news org websites. Tell me how much “suppourt” you see for the gays.
Comment by Doom — March 3, 2011 @ 7:21 pm - March 3, 2011
Gone are the days of gay solidarity, if ever they existed …
Since the religious angle was brought up, I’m hoping to find an answer to a question I posed in comments at this opinion piece at CNN — http://tinyurl.com/4qp4u8j — namely, why do gays and lesbians insist on the marriage thing when the major religions clearly prohibit it? I’m all for civil unions, and don’t understand the whole need for spiritual sanction from folks who are against it. Why not create a new religion then?
Comment by Boris — March 3, 2011 @ 7:30 pm - March 3, 2011
@Doom: Dunno. HOT AIR, Ace of Spades, this fine weblog, the Campaign Spot at NRO…
It makes me proud to see the support we’ve gotten – not grudging acceptance, mind you – support.
Best wishes,
-MFS
Comment by MFS — March 3, 2011 @ 7:35 pm - March 3, 2011
This is not a whiny post, not in the least.
No, it’s not. Accusing you of “whining” is just the liberals’ way of refusing to acknowledge their rotten behavior; while implicitly admitting to such behavior.
Comment by V the K — March 3, 2011 @ 7:49 pm - March 3, 2011
Peter in 13:
Dan in 15:
Clearly, Dan leads with ‘I’m a gay Republican!’ when he’s talking to people. Sorry Pete, but you’ve clearly got your little formula reversed. You guys are throwing up cartoon characters like George Bush and Sarah Palin to lead the country, and you want to pretend like image isn’t everything to the conservative movement? He’s a cowboy-warrior who clears brush and she’s a hockey mom in heels – won’t you please vote Republican?
Remember, the only reason that anybody knows about Sarah Palin is because John McCain thought disaffected Hillary Clinton supporters would vote for a Republican ticket if a woman was on the ballot. Because women were going to vote for Hillary just because she was a woman, right? If that isn’t playing identity politics, I don’t know what is.
Comment by Levi — March 3, 2011 @ 7:57 pm - March 3, 2011
As for Dan’s original post – I’m sure that I am one of the people he has in mind when he refers to people that don’t know anything about the Republican platform or the ideology of modern conservatism. I disagree, to say the least, and in my opinion, the point of American conservatism is indeed to preserve straight, white, male privilege. I can’t think of a single Republican position that doesn’t specifically cater to straight, white, male privilege. For what it’s worth, I’m not as perplexed about why anyone would be a Republican if they were gay (althought that doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, either), what’s more confusing is why anyone would be a Republican if they weren’t making $5 million a year.
Gay or not, the Republican party is clearly devoted to the preservation of the modern aristocracy, and they’re good enough at politics and propaganda that they’ve got millions of people excitedly voting against their own self interest every couple of years. That’s what doesn’t make sense, your homosexuality only compounds the confusion. Okay, so you basically want corporations to be completely free to do whatever they want to seek a profit, but you’re also going to vote along with people who equate your sexual lifestyle to pedophelia and beastiality?
I think it’s Dan that doesn’t understand anything about modern conservatism.
Comment by Levi — March 3, 2011 @ 8:13 pm - March 3, 2011
As for Dan’s original post – I’m sure that I am one of the people he has in mind when he refers to people that don’t know anything about the Republican platform or the ideology of modern conservatism. I disagree, to say the least, and in my opinion, the point of American conservatism is indeed to preserve straight, white, male privilege. I can’t think of a single Republican position that doesn’t specifically cater to straight, white, male privilege. For what it’s worth, I’m not as perplexed about why anyone would be a Republican if they were gay (althought that doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, either), what’s more confusing is why anyone would be a Republican if they weren’t making $5 million a year.
Gay or not, the Republican party is clearly devoted to the preservation of the modern aristocracy, and they’re good enough at politics and propaganda that they’ve got millions of people excitedly voting against their own self interest every couple of years. That’s what doesn’t make sense, your homosexuality only compounds the confusion. Okay, so you basically want corporations to be completely free to do whatever they want to seek a profit, but you’re also going to vote along with people who equate your sexual lifestyle to pedophelia and beastiality?
I think it’s Dan that doesn’t understand anything about modern conservatism.
Comment by Levi — March 3, 2011 @ 8:13 pm - March 3, 2011
Would the “Modern Aristocracy” include the Kennedies, Gores, Udalls, Kerry-Heinzs, Rockefellers, Cuomos, Sulzbergers, Daleys, Caseys, et c? All those aristocrats who pass on their positions of public power to their offspring, regardless of merit?
Comment by V the K — March 3, 2011 @ 8:27 pm - March 3, 2011
#16
You missed my point that deciding for oneself is never easy, that it is the labels of conservative or liberal which lull one into a comforting sense of security. I think I read Dan’s post quite clearly, especially in light of his follow-up about the ability of Mr. Aviles to listen to Dan (an excellent trait often lacking by followers of this website on both sides). Nonetheless, TGC, we can agree to disagree.
Comment by Bryan — March 3, 2011 @ 8:40 pm - March 3, 2011
Yes. This is essentially the problem that has been plaguing human civilization for thousands of years now, and as much as you’d like to pretend that it’s all the Democrats, the modern conservative movement is the aristocrats’ flag-bearer today.
That you can snidely talk about people passing positions of power to their offspring given the most recent Republican President demonstrates precisely how incapable of grasping this problem you are.
Comment by Levi — March 3, 2011 @ 8:46 pm - March 3, 2011
Actually, Levi, most times I meet with people, I don’t lead by coming out as a Republican, but in this particular case I did because it was well a meeting about a potential political endorsement and I wanted Mito to know I was a Republican.
But, to his credit, he still met with me knowing that.
And treated me with great decency and listened to my explanation of my political principles with great respect.
Comment by B. Daniel Blatt — March 3, 2011 @ 9:05 pm - March 3, 2011
Love it, love it, love it!!!
Tell me, Doom, what exactly constitutes “suppourt” for the gays in your alleged mind? Perhaps it goes something like this:
No “suppourt”=gas chamber.
Minimal “suppourt”=thrashing, trashing and bashing.
Grudging “suppourt”=burning pink flamingoes in your front yard.
Indifferent “suppourt”=snubbing you.
Phony “suppourt”=taking your money.
Plain face “suppourt”=hiring you conditionally.
Smiley face “suppourt”=do as I say and we can get along, maybe.
“Suppourt”=unconditional “suppourt” which means gays set the rules.
Certainly, in the Doom mind, “suppourt” includes gay marriage at the very least. What else, Doom? You used the word, at least define it. How about affirmative action for gays? Reparations? Tax breaks to off-set the inability to procreate? Maybe special deductions for pets as stand-in dependents as a replacement of children? Waiver of the incest rules?
Detail your ground rules for gay social justice and egalitarianism. It is only fair. (Whatever “fair” means.)
Comment by heliotrope — March 3, 2011 @ 11:22 pm - March 3, 2011
#27 – Dan, did it ever occur to you that it was in his self-interest to be courteous to a blogger of particular influence? To be courteous to a constituent of his district? To indulge someone who would make the particular effort you did to meet him? You see it’s you making this an issue about Left versus Right, right? Personally I’m fine socializing with people who are very right-wing conservatives as long as they keep their political opinions to themselves. I don’t generally lead with my political ideology in meeting new people, do you? But why should you expect those on the left to be cowed by your philosophy and to be humble about their opinions? We’re a nation built on the principles of speaking out and bucking the establishment. The people in everyday life you may interact with, that you confess your conservative ideology too have no same obligation to courtesy. You obvious obliviousness as to why mainstream/liberal people may find your ideas offensive is more telling then these people having that reaction in the first place.
Was I on-topic now for you not to whine about not being on topic finally, or has the bar been moved yet again?
Comment by Countervail — March 4, 2011 @ 12:39 am - March 4, 2011
I don’t think there is anything unusual about any of that. I was mainly addressing Peter and his ‘conservatives care about who, liberals care about what’ comment.
Back to your claim that the conservative movement is about something other than preserving the dominance of the straight, white male… take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NutFkykjmbM
That’s the tea party movement in a nutshell for you – groups of white people screaming at children because of the way they dress/pray. You even have Congressmen that actively seek out being involved with this kind of stuff. You can go on and on Dan, about your principles and morality, but at the end of the day, the Republican party would be nowhere without the electoral contributions of people that scream at 4 year olds.
Comment by Levi — March 4, 2011 @ 12:51 am - March 4, 2011
To wit:
• the point of American conservatism is indeed to preserve straight, white, male privilege.
• I can’t think of a single Republican position that doesn’t specifically cater to straight, white, male privilege.
• the Republican party is clearly devoted to the preservation of the modern aristocracy
Here endeth the lesson from Levi the lesson giver.
Get with the program, Dan. Levi has defined modern conservatism and you don’t fit the definition. Now ain’t that special?
Levi: I don’t think you understand anything about modern liberalism in America.
• It is based on the ends justifying the means with the Constitution as an occasionally useful guideline.
• The money belongs to the government.
• Social Justice must be identified and distributed by an elite set of over-seers who keep the people from harming themselves through ignorance and/or selfishness.
• People in general can not be trusted to know what is good for them.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 4, 2011 @ 1:26 am - March 4, 2011
Now watch as we make Levi run away from this thread.
First we point out how Levi whines and cries about this:
That’s the tea party movement in a nutshell for you – groups of white people screaming at children because of the way they dress/pray.
Then I point out the hilarious hypocrisy of Levi whining about children being “attacked” because of the way they dress/pray given his previous utterances.
<That’s why forcing your kids to be the same religion as you is tantamount to child abuse in my book…..The only way for religion to continue is to teach kids from a very young age, when you can take advantage of their gullibility and inability to reason.
So what we have here is a classic example of Levi and his fellow progressives and Obama Party members attacking and mocking these children and parents for the way they dress/pray, calling them ignorant and gullible and claiming they’re child abusers — while trying to sanctimoniously project said behavior onto others.
Basic rule of thumb with liberalism: the degree to which they accuse others of something is directly proportional to the likelihood that they practice it themselves. This is why they insist that anyone who criticizes gays and lesbians is in fact a closeted one; that sort of coping projection is literally all they can do to function. Levi accuses conservatives of antireligious bigotry and racism because he is in fact an epic antireligious bigot and racist, saying that these parents and their children should be mocked and that black babies should have their spinal cords cut.
We didn’t even have to add how Levi brags about how proud he is that “creative” child rapists like Roman Polanski are on his side and part of his Obama Party, or that his politicians appeal to those who sell their children online as sexual objects.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 4, 2011 @ 2:03 am - March 4, 2011
And now for Counterfail, who is even more entertainingly clueless.
As is typical, Counterfail makes some kind of epic pronouncement:
But why should you expect those on the left to be cowed by your philosophy and to be humble about their opinions? We’re a nation built on the principles of speaking out and bucking the establishment.
Except for conservatives, of course:
Personally I’m fine socializing with people who are very right-wing conservatives as long as they keep their political opinions to themselves.
So what we have here is a classic example of Counterfail and his fellow progressives and Obama Party members demanding that conservatives shut up and never buck the establishment or criticize them — while trying to sanctimoniously project said behavior onto others.
Basic rule of thumb with liberalism: the degree to which they accuse others of something is directly proportional to the likelihood that they practice it themselves. This is why they insist that anyone who criticizes gays and lesbians is in fact a closeted one; that sort of coping projection is literally all they can do to function. Counterfail wants to silence others, so he projects onto them his desire to make everyone who disagrees with him shut up.
We didn’t even have to add how Counterfail brags about how proud he is that “creative” child rapists like Roman Polanski are on his side and part of his Obama Party, or that his politicians appeal to those who sell their children online as sexual objects.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 4, 2011 @ 2:10 am - March 4, 2011
#30 And liberals would be nothing without the money and votes of these hate-filled SOBs, dipshit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wc-I_j68Ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3049ny1JczA
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=81d_1298691905
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGyIVstNTa8&p=4BE39F4F30F8D91C
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onov-nMMvlA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVFDVtJQwGs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlHlSENxoVQ
I can go on, if you like.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 2:25 am - March 4, 2011
#21: Levi still can’t touch his keyboard without typing the letters P-A-L-I-N.
Comment by Sean A — March 4, 2011 @ 2:29 am - March 4, 2011
TONS. I comment at Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, Ace of Spades and other, and get plenty of support. Michelle often uses my photshops and even posted on of my articles once. Another arch conservative, pro-traditional marriage Christian, Laura Ingraham, has pistol packing Tammy Bruce as probably her most frequent guest host.
You live inside a delusional world of your own hateful construct.
Comment by American Elephant — March 4, 2011 @ 3:06 am - March 4, 2011
Perhaps best of all, our resident racist spouts this:
And when called on it, spins it into this:
So now Levi’s saying that even the modern left is ‘conservative’ to him. Is anyone surprised?
And of course I love this:
Coming from a boy who thinks that brown people can’t comprehend democracy, thinks that Americans shouldn’t have self government, and thinks that because Sarah Palin is smarter, more educated, and more successful than him, she should drag him kicking and screaming into the future.
Apparently personal determination and the Republic are part of those ‘straight, white, male’ privileges.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 7:55 am - March 4, 2011
FIFY, AE, and is precisely the reason why, after more than a decade of participation, I now frequent this blog just about as often as I wade on over to the swamp that is the DailyKos.
The left has been spewing the same petulant crap for so long, they’ve become as predictable as diarrhea after a long alcoholic bender (and about as pleasant). They have redefined annoying, as if somehow, their shrill repetition will result in acceptance. Sorry to say, but without barbed wire, an evil camp interrogator and hallucinogenic drugs, it isn’t going to be very effective.
Lately however, they seem to be doubling down, as if they’re realizing their Berlin Wall is falling. Personally, I don’t like to watch things die, so do me a favor and drop me a line once the corpse has been cleaned off the side of the road of American history.
Comment by Eric Olsen — March 4, 2011 @ 8:12 am - March 4, 2011
Like the paranoid persecution fantasy of White male privilege; which excuses all obnoxious behavior by those who profess to hate white male privilege.
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 9:15 am - March 4, 2011
Yawn.
Find me a video where a mob of liberals are screaming at kindergarten kids and calling their parents terrorists, while Democratic congressmen cheer them on.
Happy hunting.
Comment by Levi — March 4, 2011 @ 10:09 am - March 4, 2011
Well, let’s go over some specifics.
Abortion – the pro-life position is anti-woman and anti-poverty. Informed almost entirely by Christian theology, which is itself an institution dedicated to preserving straight, white, male privilege.
Taxes – the conservative position is that progressive taxation is unfair. Conservatives believe the rich and the poor should pay the same rate, which ultimately means that rich people (disproportionately whites) would end up paying less in taxes while poor people (disproportionately non-whites) would end up paying more.
Regulation and oversight – Conservatives believe there is too much of this, and corporations (mostly owned by wealthy white men) should be able to do what they want without government interference. Anti-regulation arguments are arguments against safeguards for American consumers and workers (both diverse groups) in favor of bigger corporate profits (white guys, again.)
War – Old, white, rich Republicans who avoided military service when they were needed send 18 year olds off to die in hopeless wars that end up giving new meaning to the phrase ‘war profiteering.’ American companies (owned by white men) make off with billions of dollars while teenagers are killed and maimed.
I could go on. Social security privatization? Environmental policy? Resistance to healthcare reform? Eliminating the Department of Education? All of these are positions that are undeniably favorable to the wealthy and powerful at the great expense of all the rest of us.
George Bush had his lawyer right a memo that said that it was okay to torture people. Republicans have absolutely no standing to lecture anyone about abiding by the Constitution.
Well what is the money supposed to belong to? The free market?
Money belongs to the government, and the government belongs to the people.
Not quite – there is simply a need in this day and age for there to be someone concerned with the big picture. The world is a lot more crowded and resources are being consumed far more quickly than the first few centuries of our country’s existence, and we need to be more aware of the cumulative effect that our society is having on the world in terms of things like the environment and geopolitics. This is the part where you start calling me a dictator that wants to compel exercise and vegetable-eating, but all I’m saying is that we need to be planning ahead. Conservatives really don’t seem to think beyond the next quarterly report, maybe the next election. Liberals take the long view.
Comment by Levi — March 4, 2011 @ 10:46 am - March 4, 2011
And Levi doubles down on teh stoopid:
Taxes – the conservative position is that progressive taxation is unfair. Conservatives believe the rich and the poor should pay the same rate, which ultimately means that rich people (disproportionately whites) would end up paying less in taxes while poor people (disproportionately non-whites) would end up paying more.
Again, let’s emphasize this: Levi believes that, if everyone paid the same rate, rich people would pay a lesser amount in taxes than poor people.
Or in other words, Levi believes that 10% of $1 million in annual income is less than 10% of $10,000 in annual income.
Somehow, even though basic science and mathematics say that 10% of $1 million is $100,000 and 10% of $10,000 is $1,000, that the latter is a greater amount than the former.
This is how delusional and stupid the Levi boy is. Levi boy is literally dumb enough to claim that the percentage of a larger amount is less than the identical percentage of a smaller amount. He does not even understand a basic calculation that the vast majority of people have mastered by the end of fifth grade.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 4, 2011 @ 11:03 am - March 4, 2011
Abortion – the pro-life position is anti-woman and anti-poverty. Informed almost entirely by Christian theology, which is itself an institution dedicated to preserving straight, white, male privilege.
Actually, Levi, as Kermit Gosnell shows, the abortion position is about killing minority women and eliminating their undesirable children by snipping their spinal cords in the name of “eliminating poverty” for straight white liberal males like yourself and, in the process, generating millions of dollars in campaign contributions for straight white liberal male politicians.
You are anti-woman, Levi, given that you support killing and murdering them when they are pregnant and killing and murdering them when they are helpless, innocent children because you find them to be “unwanted” and “undesirable”.
And you are anti-poor, inasmuch as you openly state that the poor and their children should be killed to eliminate poverty.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 4, 2011 @ 11:09 am - March 4, 2011
Not quite – there is simply a need in this day and age for there to be someone concerned with the big picture. The world is a lot more crowded and resources are being consumed far more quickly than the first few centuries of our country’s existence, and we need to be more aware of the cumulative effect that our society is having on the world in terms of things like the environment and geopolitics.
Such as the liberals like Levi who scream about waste, carbon footprints, fuel consumption, and obesity while demanding taxpayer-funded 757s, fully stocked with premium liquor and dark chocolate dipped strawberries and capable of carrying nearly 200 passengers, to fly them and their 20 or so friends/cronies/donors coast-to-coast in both directions within 24 hours so they can attend a birthday party.
Liberalism is all about lying, hypocrisy, and racism, trying to guilt and attack people into doing what you want them to do. It is an infantile and immature ideology, the instinctual response of actual three-year-olds and those like Levi who never progressed emotionally beyond that age.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 4, 2011 @ 11:22 am - March 4, 2011
NDT beat me to shredding the abortion canard.
And to Levi failing math (again).
Though Levi lets his mask slip in this:
Yet Levi’s been against self government constantly. He believes in government by the elite, and democracy is overrated.
Racist, fascist, leftist. That’s our boy Levi.
Levi believed that anything you earn and buy belongs to the government. Get paid for your labor? Your labor belongs to the government since you took money for it. Your home? Government owns it.
Of course he believes that killing the unborn is fine, after all, you’d have to use the government’s money to pay for their upbringing, so they belong to the government.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 11:25 am - March 4, 2011
Whoa. That *is* Communism. No other word.
The people who earned it. Here in America, Levi, we call it the right to life, liberty and property. It’s in this thing we call the Constitution. You might want to learn about it, as a North Korean visiting our strange but charming land.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — March 4, 2011 @ 12:02 pm - March 4, 2011
This is fun:
Because shipping jobs overseas due to stifling regulation and compliance costs, not to mention high labor (union) costs and massive taxes is good for po’folks.
Who was the “rich Republican” president, who avoided military service, that sent kids over to war over an imaginary 400,000 massacred Albanian Muslims???
Because allowing poor, black kids to go to quality schools is bad because…..??? Rich, white liberals don’t want their kids to go to school “with no pickaninnies”?
1) How in the HELL do you right a memo? Was it listing to one side?
2) By US law, to claim torture, you have to prove intent. Without intent, there’s no torture. When an alleged Nazi war criminal tried to fight extradition from the US to Germany because he feared he would be tortured, the Obama DoJ told him the same thing.
3) Look into Operation Keelhaul sometime. That was your boy FDR.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 12:12 pm - March 4, 2011
All liberal policies are based on selfishness:
Abortion: Liberals get to have irresponsible sex without consequences; minority; poor and minority populations are kept down so liberals don’t have to pay for their welfare.
Taxes: Liberals believe they should be raised on other people and spent on them.
Regulation: The means by which Liberals selfishly use Government to force everybody else to adopt their lifestyle choices.
War: Liberals get to preen self-righteously about their pacifism while brown people are slaughtered by the millions by despots. (See: Iraq, Vietnam, Cambodia)
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 12:12 pm - March 4, 2011
Labeling coercive interrogation as “torture” is another example of liberal selfishness. Simply stated, liberals don’t care how many people are killed as a result of their objection to pouring water on a terrorist’s nose; a process which is not done in retribution, nor seriously or permanently injures the person on which it is inflicted. We waterboard our own troops as part of their training.
Liberals are simply too selfish to care if people die in order to advance their sense of self-righteousness and their political agenda.
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 12:15 pm - March 4, 2011
Levi,
I didn’t get my chance since so many others got there first and far better. But please do refute them. I love the part about money belonging to the government and government belonging to the people.
Tell me which is one controls the other. From my knuckle-dragging, str8 homophobe, Neanderthal, drooling point of view, the people control the government and We the TEA Party of the United States of America are going to peacefully overthrow the socialist-cum-communists who hid from open, transparent, full public debate as they crammed Obamacare down our throats in a fashion no political science guru could relate to the Constitution of the United States of America as written by We the People.
Ho, ho, Obama and his socialists gotta go!
Nonetheless, I do so much enjoy your topsy-turvy view of how the Constitution structures the United States government. Bring some more to the table, you make yourself so stark nakedly obvious.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 4, 2011 @ 1:15 pm - March 4, 2011
It could be because you support people like Donald Trump, who had this to say about gays
“After indicating to the Des Moines Register that he will compete in next year’s Iowa caucus should he decide to seek office, Trump was questioned on his stance concerning same sex marriages. “They should not be able to marry,” the Celebrity Apprentice star asserted. Trump also admitted that he hasn’t developed a “fully formed” opinion on extending medical and civil benefits to gay couples, but he added: “As of this moment, I would say no and no.” The TV personality has suggested that he will announce his final decision on whether to launch a presidential bid in the coming months.”
http://www.digitalspy.com/showbiz/s79/the-celebrity-apprentice-usa/news/a307210/trump-i-dont-support-gay-marriage.html
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 1:20 pm - March 4, 2011
And non-sequetor boy comes back.
Nice try Dooms. But you’re failing again. Let me again ask you the question you refuse to answer.
You have the exact same ability to marry one person at a time of the opposite sex, subject to the laws of the state of residency that I have. How is that discriminatory?
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 1:33 pm - March 4, 2011
TL, I am sorry if this interferes in your thing with Dooms, but I see the real answer so clearly: it discriminates against the couple. Not against the individual, but against the gay or lesbian couple. They can’t get a helpful State license recognizing them as a family, that a straight couple can. The question is whether that discrimination is good or bad (“invidious” in SCOTUS lingo). The whole point of any State licensing scheme is precisely to create discrimination. For example, to discriminate between people who are allowed to practice medicine, and people who aren’t. So it’s a legitimately arguable question, and I take the other side from yours, trying however to never “make you wrong” on a personal level for being opposite me.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — March 4, 2011 @ 1:46 pm - March 4, 2011
Livewire, thats like saying in the 60′s the marriage laws weren’t discriminatory because I could still marry a “colored” I just couldn’t marry a “white”.
This is why other gays dislike you people so much,you try so hard to impress the people who dislike you.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 1:56 pm - March 4, 2011
Some of us would like to get married and share all the same benefits as married people, raise children, you know stuff like that.
What really makes me laugh is that GOProud does not support gay marriage…but isn’t Barron married? Hypocrisy, another reason you uncle toms are so disliked.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 2:01 pm - March 4, 2011
So in other words. Dooms fails the question. Again. (Hint, Dooms check out that comic book like I sent to you, it will show you the flaw in your argument)
ILC, I agree it is discriminatory. But I believe you will agree with me that there’s no ‘right’ of government recognition of marriage. Dooms can’t argue against my question because it boils down to that it doesn’t discriminate against a person it discriminates against government recognition of a contract between two people. I’ve not wavered in my desire to see ‘Fred’ established, but government recognition of your (or my!) social contract isn’t a ‘right’
(Amusingly this may go back to Cas’s comments about subsidies, something that I am still formulating a reply to).
Unfortunately showing Dooms is a bigot and a fool takes less effort (and is more immediately gratifying) than having an intelligent debate with Cas.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 2:16 pm - March 4, 2011
You people keep calling me a bigot, but you’ve yet to provide any instance of me being a bigot.
And really, if you think calling religious nutjobs out on their bigotry is in a sense it’s own bigotry…well there is no hope for you.
But if you want to see some REAL bigotry? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM&feature=player_embedded
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 2:20 pm - March 4, 2011
Wow I was not going to post but Levi put me over the limit of ignorance that I could handle. First let me state for the record I am white, heterosexual male and if you want to stereo-type me and close your mind like a bigot very well. Regardless let me attempt to help you understand some very basic concepts.
Abortion – My wife ( who has had five children by the way ) is far more upset about abortion then I am. She has felt the baby ( not fetus ) move in her womb, she knew it for what it was, a life that had endless possibility rather than some parasite meant to keep her from achieving. She is unabashedly pro life ( oh and of Hispanic descent btw since for some reason race seems to matter to you )
Taxes – Money is simply a representation of bartering power. While the ‘money’ is technically property of the United States Government it is only the FAITH people have in the currency that defines its value.
Now that being said the Progressive Tax System is a horrible burden to companies and individuals who actually make money and disincentive to push for a greater mechanism for wealth creation as well as a method for creating ignorant class warfare. So lets say I make $80,000 a year. I decided I want to create some auxiliary income. I start investing in goods that I purchase and begin to generate additional income. First off for every dollar I bring in at this point the Government is taking $.25 That is if you can make any profit to begin with, but now lets say that you manage it and you get over the $82,600.00 mark that now means that $.28 now goes to the government. Think about that the harder you work to generate wealth the more the Government is entitled to? Once you actually start to try to do this you FEEL the effects of the government as though it were a thorn in your side and I can only believe you have never created something of value if you are ranting about the merits of the Progressive tax system.
Regulation and oversight – Seriously you think major corporations are the ones that are effected by the regulation? They have the money to comply with it. What it does do is shut the little guy out so they can never accomplish what the major cooperation are doing because you have to have the finances of a major corporation to do it, nor the marketing capabilities to absorb it.
War – Seriously? White Rich Men? Wow, I can only say can you be any more biased? My father fought, My grandfather Fought, my Great Grandfather fought and my Great Great Grandfather Fought. War occurs typically in the USA for defense of others or the creation of liberty in areas. I am willing to place my life on the line even for you, are you willing to do the same for me?
Social Security – Largest Ponzi Scheme ever invented, Seriously please look into before slamming the reason behind privatization which was simply supposed to be to remove it from the Government giving empty promises. It was never meant to be what it has become.
Environmental Policy – Seriously, you mean understanding that industrialization has an environmental cost and attempting to strike a balance between banning and off-shoring? Sure you then blame us when CEO’s and businesses look for locations that turn a blind eye to the pollution rather than attempting to strike a balance to keeping the jobs here!
Healthcare Reform – You mean not believing in creating another entitlement program to fix an inflation based government interference situation that is already occurring. Your right I resist that idea because it is stupid. Rather I would like to talk about the reason costs are so high such as, regulation, law suits, etc. No one factor simply contributes to the inflated cost but rather it is a tapestry that must be addressed rather than ramming an idiotic bill through and then attempting to ‘fix it later’ the phrase ‘we have to pass it to see whats in it’ is just plain stupid.
You my friend live in a world where rather than attempting to create something you are a parasite off others who have created. You obviously do not work for yourself or else these stupid notions of how wonderful the government is would go right out the window. You have never had to make a payroll and had to dip into your own rainy day fund to pay the government its pound of flesh, and you most obviously are a bigot in the third degree. I do not know if you are white, black, Native American, gay, straight, Hispanic, Czech, or any other race, religion, creed, or what have you. Go and attempt to create something for yourself and you will feel just how suffocating the Government is. Instead you whine about how you are kept down rather than raising yourself up and seeing all the obstacles that Government lays in your path. If you were independent of the government then they could not profit off you.
Comment by Innocentious — March 4, 2011 @ 2:41 pm - March 4, 2011
And that’s why you’re such a miserable, ignorant wretch. Skippy the Wonder Asshole in the WH opposes gay marriage. And no, he’s not changing his mind (waffling) and yes, he’s STILL defending DADT.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 3:20 pm - March 4, 2011
Does this quote ring any bells, bigot?
Courtesy, TLW, one thread up.
You hate Christians based on our faith. You have no tolerance for Christians. That makes you a bigot.
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 3:20 pm - March 4, 2011
Thank you for catching my error, V the K
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 3:24 pm - March 4, 2011
Exactly. REAL hatred and violence on the part of the left doesn’t bother you at all. Not surprisingly, yours is the same response of the liberal media.
And then we find that the peace loving unionistas did $7.5 million in damage to the WI State House, had to be bounced out by a judge so they wouldn’t impede free access by the citizens, and they left behind dozens of rounds of live ammunition.
Wouldn’t find that at a TEA Party rally, asshole.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 3:25 pm - March 4, 2011
I don’t hate Christians based on their faith, I hate the ones who seem to think that being a Christian gives them the right to force the rest of us to live by their rules.
If you can’t understand that then you are as stupid as you seem.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:26 pm - March 4, 2011
LMAO 7.5 million dollars in damage…from scotch tape..thats right apparently Scotch tape holding up posters causes 7.5 million dollars in damage.
You people are sad. I bet none of you have ever had a single job in your life in which you needed a union.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:28 pm - March 4, 2011
Lol I rather place my bet on someone who has an evolving stance, or a cononfrontational stance on gay rights than people who outright call me nasty names and tell me I’m going to hell.
You idiots seem incapable of that though, you keep supporting anti gay bigots and then cry when gays don’t want to have anything to do with you.
Please, whine some more, the rest of us laugh at you.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:30 pm - March 4, 2011
Translation: Dumms is comfortable with his bigotry.
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 3:35 pm - March 4, 2011
The people here never fail to provide a good laugh, whether they are actively denying their white privilege, berating the poor for being poor, or attacking gays (is anyone here even gay?) you people prove that the people who run this site are truly the dumbest homosexuals in the world.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:36 pm - March 4, 2011
Right, I’m the bigot. Because Christians are such a persecuted minority and my feelings toward their actions are totally unwarranted.
Please, just stop, don’t you have some serious conservative bigot fanny to kiss up to?
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:37 pm - March 4, 2011
Meanwhile, the government regulation that Levi champions leads to shortages of lifesaving drugs.
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 3:38 pm - March 4, 2011
“I’m not a bigot, I have lots of [insert group] friends!”
Keep telling yourself that Dooms. The first step to fixing a problem is to admit you have a problem.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 3:46 pm - March 4, 2011
Like you care about anyone in a hospital.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:48 pm - March 4, 2011
Lulz, right. Me, a black male who knows exactly what its like to grow up black in this country is the racist one..against my own blackness…wait what?
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:51 pm - March 4, 2011
And you still can’t find anything to support your claim that I’m racist. At this point you liken yourself to a lunatic running around shouting nonsense.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 3:52 pm - March 4, 2011
I worked in an IBEW office once. Everybody got the same shitty pay ($7.31 starting) as the union members got. We also had the same meager benefits that the union members got. PLUS, by Florida law, you can ask and receive union representation even if you’re not a member. The only “benefit” of being a member was that it took a lot longer to get fired.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 3:55 pm - March 4, 2011
Let me congratulate and thank all of those on here (NDT, Heliotrope, The_Livewire, V the K, ThatGayConservative, American Elephant, and others I can’t remember) for having the fortitude to beat back flawed thinking and logic by Countervail, Levi, Dooms (and others I don’t want to remember). They are exhausting to read. I don’t know how you all do it so effectively, vigorously, consistently……and still maintain your sanity. I owe you all at least a beer or two. Really…..I can’t thank you enough.
Comment by Scott Lassiter — March 4, 2011 @ 3:58 pm - March 4, 2011
Good thing I never called you a racist then, bigot.
Though like most Liberals, you dive to the race card when losing the argument. Sorry, it’s been maxed out.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 4:00 pm - March 4, 2011
Wait wait wait, you people have been calling me racists for as long as I can remember, and then when I point out the fact that I am black, I’m accused of playing the race card.
Wooooooooow.
Guess I shouldn’t tell you I was raised by baptists either.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 4:03 pm - March 4, 2011
Practice. A long time ago, it used to get me mad. Now I just laugh at their stupidity and point out how full of shit they are.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 4:11 pm - March 4, 2011
I don’t know how you all do it so effectively, vigorously, consistently……and still maintain your sanity.
For myself, I find that reading Counterfail’s, Levi’s, and Dooms’s posts a source of constant reassurance of the rightness of my own positions.
Comment by V the K — March 4, 2011 @ 4:14 pm - March 4, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-kffThytmCk
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 4:19 pm - March 4, 2011
Easy. You’re a liberal. You vote for the party of slavery, segregation and the Klan. You vote for those who don’t want black kids to go to decent schools. You vote for those who keep blacks dependent on Uncle Sugar and have kept blacks in grinding poverty for decades. You vote for those who don’t believe blacks are good enough to get into college or get a job based on their merits. You vote for a party that actively slaughters children, especially blacks, because they’re “undesirable”.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 4:22 pm - March 4, 2011
Lol, you use the quote of someone who lived in a time when the republican party was the democratic party. Something that lasted until the 60′s.
What would any of you know what it’s like to grow up black in this country? Guess where most of the racsim/homophobia comes from in this country?
White Christians.
Comment by Dooms — March 4, 2011 @ 4:50 pm - March 4, 2011
Right, on both counts.
Comment by ILoveCapitalism — March 4, 2011 @ 4:58 pm - March 4, 2011
And his bigorty goes on. Though now I think we can call Doom a racist if he blames his inadequacies on white Christians.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 4, 2011 @ 6:13 pm - March 4, 2011
And as a sidenote – neither Doomed nor Levi have been able to show sufficient proof as to deny the validity of my assertion, which is STILL as follows:
“Conservatives like you for WHO you are. Liberals like you for WHAT you are.”
And Doomed, showing how he “hates Christians,” is a perfect example.
Checkmate.
Regards,
Peter H.
Comment by Peter Hughes — March 4, 2011 @ 8:12 pm - March 4, 2011
Got that from the Fredrick Douglass Republican Club of Central Florida whom, I would wager, know a helluva lot more than your gay ass about growing up black in this country. They know democreeps gave you Black Codes and Jim Crow laws and riots. They know the democreeps were the majority opposed to the Civil Rights acts. They know that it was libs like Johnson who despised “that nigger preacher” Martin Luther King Jr.
And the Republican party was never the democrap party, no matter how much your white massuhs try to keep you afeered.
You’d think someone with a lick of sense would steer clear of a candidate with the support of so many white supremacists.
http://tinyurl.com/6mg3o6
But, I suppose, party and skin color trumps all, right Doop? But you’ve bought into the scary stories about eeeeeeevil white devil Republicans and Christians you’ve been told to keep you on the plantation. I highly doubt that you have any clue what it means to be black in this country. You know what you’re supposed to believe and, sadly, there’s not a damn bit of reality that will change your warped mind.
I honestly feel sorry for you. It’s very sad that you believe real fairy tales meant to keep you in your place as a slave to the party that wants to keep you and yours dependent on them.
Comment by ThatGayConservative — March 4, 2011 @ 10:36 pm - March 4, 2011
Dooms @63:
You mean these? —-
It is really a bitch when you can’t steal and murder and do adultery as a recreational sport, isn’t it.
Dooms @72:
Every black male who grew up in this country knows what it is to grow up black in this country. However, Dooms says that his black self who grew up in this country knows it is “a racist country” and so we must assume all other blacks “know” the same ….. But he does not say what you call a black who does not know it is a racist country. Perhaps, such a black is not authentically black. Who knows? Maybe such a black is an Oreo. Only a bigot would know for certain. I can show you numerous blacks who grew up black in this country who do not think it is a racist country. So, Dooms, what are they?
Dooms @73:
See #72 and #77 and #82.
Dooms @77:
Meaning, of course, that a black can not be a racist. If a black appeals to pity by leaning on his race, you must understand that race has nothing to do with it. Right?
Dooms @82:
So Dooms can call racism on “White Christians” but there is no racism on the part of black Christians who lay into “punks.” (gays.)
Ah, sweet bigotry laced with racism.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 5, 2011 @ 12:47 am - March 5, 2011
The torture argument demonstrates precisely how cowardly and ineffective conservatives are when they debate. Without fail, conservatives defending Bush’s torture regime will diminish and consolidate all of the evidence into some variation of ‘terrorists having a little water splashed in their face.’ The fear is as palpable as it is understandable. You’d rather be taken for a moron that doesn’t understand the connections between Abu Ghraib, Gunatanamo Bay, the CIA blacksites, individual cases of rendition, testimony of people released by Bush, the John Yoo memos, etc., than to face the reality that you might have voted twice for someone who has committed a laundry list of crimes against humanity.
So from the mouths of small government conservatives who implicitly mistrust the government – we are told that we must implicitly trust the government in a case in which it has every reason to lie in the world and when there is a stack of evidence proving their guilt. You’re pathetic, but then I’d probably lie to myself if I vote for monsters like Bush and Cheney as well.
Comment by Levi — March 5, 2011 @ 11:55 am - March 5, 2011
Levi exhales a firestorm of liberal hyperbolic halitosis:
Ho, hum.
We have seen your silly laundry list Levi. Any trained chimp can make a laundry list. What you fail to produce is the EVIDENCE.
Might I add that your fear of producing proof is as palpable as it is understandable?
Now run along and play. We know you will be back beating the same old dented pot with your serving spoon. That is the way liberal dandruff flakes.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 5, 2011 @ 1:55 pm - March 5, 2011
Fixed it for you.
Comment by V the K — March 5, 2011 @ 7:04 pm - March 5, 2011
And the interesting part about this is that Levi supports and endorses people who put others in the situation of choking to death on poisonous gases, being burned alive by flaming jet fuel, having chunks of concrete and steel crush them, and being torn apart by explosions — as happened to the people in the WTC and Pentagon and on the 9/11 airliners.
One can only imagine the terror and torture that those on the planes, in the WTC, and at the Pentagon were put through, the pain, the suffering, the knowing they were going to die — and Levi doesn’t care a whit about any of that, only about protecting, endorsing, and supporting the people who did it.
The reason you and your whining don’t matter, Levi, is that people have seen that you only consider it a “crime against humanity” to be a Republican. You don’t care about anything an Obama Party member does, or anything a Khadafy or Hussein does, or anything an al-Qaeda terrorist does. They can torture, maim, murder, brutalize, and even continue the same policies that Bush did, and you laugh and clap and cheer.
In short, you’re merely projecting your own pathological sickness and support of torture, murder and terrorism onto others.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 6, 2011 @ 1:18 am - March 6, 2011
Abu Ghraib, Dana Priest’s story about CIA black sites, the John Yoo memos, the admission by senior officials, including Bush himself, that he authorized the ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ that the rest of the world recognizes as torture, Red Cross reports about the conditions at Guantanamo Bay, personal testimony from the people we have held for years without charges, the CIA’s destruction of interrogation sessions with Al-Qaeda members….. is this not enough for you?
This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_al-Hajj
This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
These guys?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Six
Again, the conservative tendency is to reduce all of the above to ‘terrorists having water splashed in their face.’ The rest of these points are habitually ignored by conservatives with no justification – even though it is precisely these actions that foment anti-American sentiment and bolster Islamist recruitment efforts in the first place. It’s hard to convince people whose country you invaded that you’re there to help them when you’re maintaining an elaborate, clandestine prison network where their fellow citizens are held and tortured with no charges.
Heliotrope, I know your religious programming precludes you from having any appreciation for what the word evidence actually means, but I think that the above list would be hard for even you to refute. If those people were terrorists, why did George Bush let them go? If they weren’t terrorists, don’t we have some moral obligation to compensate them for the abuse they’re endured? Wouldn’t this whole situation be a lot easier if we, oh, I don’t know, charged people with crimes and had the government present evidence in court?
Comment by Levi — March 6, 2011 @ 8:47 am - March 6, 2011
And let’s keep in mind, Levi’s perfectly fine with giving Bill Clinton and Al Gore a pass on the rendition program they started, but as soon as a Republican’s in the white house, it’s evil.
Levi, I know your lack of education and racist programming precludes you from having any appreciation for what the word evidence actually means, but I think that the the fact that you can’t refute any of my posts, that you still cling to your belief that Bush was complicit in 9/11, and that Arabians can’t comprehend democracy shows just how much of an ass you are.
Find where ‘the rest of the world’ recognizes as torture. Again you trot out the big lie. if ‘the rest of the world’ recognizes as torture, then why do we not have charges in the Hauge? Why have we not been kicked out of the UN?
The answer is ‘the rest of the world’ doesn’t Fringe leftist truthers like yourself do.
Let’s look at Al Hajj.
All the allegations of mistreatment came from him. No evidence.
He went through *multiple* legal procedures, that ended in his release. So much for being held w/o process.
And then, despite your own article showing no evidence refuting the charges against him he was released. Likely in part from pressure by terror supporters like yourself.
But hey, you support the terrorists being released.
Maher Arar? Well given that your favorite administration supports an embassy in Syria, you should be just fine with him being sent to his homeland.
Your Algerian Six? Why they’re so innocent that Bosnia doesn’t want them back.
*yawn* More lies from Levi.
Levi’s like his fellow Truther Charlie Sheen, though without the drug induced humor and less intelligent.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 6, 2011 @ 9:40 am - March 6, 2011
Shorter on Levi. Not only does he complain when a terrorist gets wet, he screams for a release despite the lack of vindicating evidence and then complains that we released a terrorist.
Being Levi means never having to face your double standards.
Comment by The_Livewire — March 6, 2011 @ 9:43 am - March 6, 2011
#90 – Thanks, V!
Regards,
Peter H.
Comment by Peter Hughes — March 6, 2011 @ 4:13 pm - March 6, 2011
It’s hard to convince people whose country you invaded that you’re there to help them when you’re maintaining an elaborate, clandestine prison network where their fellow citizens are held and tortured with no charges.
And the entertaining part is that the idiot Levi was screaming that the Iraqi people loved and supported Saddam, when in fact Saddam was maintaining an ENORMOUS “elaborate, clandestine prison network where their fellow citizens are held and tortured with no charges”.
Again, projection. Levi supports and endorses prisons, tortures, genocide, and mass murder of brown people, especially when Levi and his fellow liberals are receiving kickbacks and bribes to ignore it. That much is obvious when you see how Levi and his fellow Obama Party members were demanding for Sarah Palin to be imprisoned and tortured without charges following the Tucson shootings.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 6, 2011 @ 4:35 pm - March 6, 2011
You know what, Levi? Your tortured logic concerning torture is beginning to torture me.
I used to think that having to watch The View was the worst form of torture, but now I find that following your “logic” is akin to unscrambling eggs in order to get a ticket to by-pass a proctology exam by the TSA wearing gloves wrapped with barbed wire while standing on one foot on a high ledge overlooking a roiling volcano.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 7, 2011 @ 2:04 am - March 7, 2011
You know what, Levi? Your tortured logic concerning torture is beginning to torture me.
I used to think that having to watch The View was the worst form of torture, but now I find that following your “logic” is akin to unscrambling eggs in order to get a ticket to by-pass a proctology exam by the TSA wearing gloves wrapped with barbed wire while standing on one foot on a high ledge overlooking a roiling volcano.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 7, 2011 @ 2:04 am - March 7, 2011
You know what, Levi? Your tortured logic concerning torture is beginning to torture me.
I used to think that having to watch The View was the worst form of torture, but now I find that following your “logic” is akin to unscrambling eggs in order to get a ticket to by-pass a proctology exam by the TSA wearing gloves wrapped with barbed wire while standing on one foot on a high ledge overlooking a roiling volcano.
Comment by Heliotrope — March 7, 2011 @ 2:04 am - March 7, 2011
NDT, I’ll go one better.
Levi feels that it’s proper to resist if someone is “maintaining an elaborate, clandestine prison network where their fellow citizens are held and tortured with no charges.”
But Levi supports dragging people, ‘kicking and screaming’ down a path that he supports and they dont.
Of course, Levi forgets Geneva. Terrorists get no protections under Geneva, and innocents killed or harmed as a result of wiping them out are the fault of the terrorists under Geneva.
(Case in point, under Geneva, if the liberals really cared about it, Hezbolla, Hamas, PLO etc. hide in civilian buildings and shoot at Israelies. If/when the Israeli counterfire levels the building/neighborhood/town it’s not a war crime on Israel’s part. It’s the result of the war crime of the target hiding among civilians.)
Comment by The_Livewire — March 7, 2011 @ 8:10 am - March 7, 2011
You scream for evidence in one comment, I provide it, and this is how you come back?
This is precisely the point I’ve been making. On the torture issue, Republicans completely abandon any pretense of argument and go scurrying under utter nonsense like the above post. You’re supposedly a grown-up?
Comment by Levi — March 7, 2011 @ 10:50 am - March 7, 2011
Actually, Levi, your “evidence” was quite nicely shown by Livewire to be nothing more than propaganda.
And as I’ve pointed out, you and your fellow “progressives” and Obama Party members want the power to imprison, torture, and murder your political opponents here in the United States.
So as was pointed out, you live under a complete double standard. Again, this is no surprise; you whine about “women and children” being killed when you yourself support the murder of millions of children annually here in the United States because you don’t like their skin color and deem them “inconvenient” or “unwanted”.
That’s what makes you really sick, Levi. You scream and cry when terrorists who murder American citizens have water splashed in their faces, but laugh and cheer and demand more Federal funding when your Obama Abortion Party snips the spinal cords of hundreds of babies whose skin color you don’t like.
Sociopath.
Comment by North Dallas Thirty — March 7, 2011 @ 11:40 am - March 7, 2011
Levi,
You can not define “torture” can you? It is strictly a word of convenience for a liberal. A gay tearing pages out of the Bible and throwing them wadded up at fundamentalist Christians is just exercising free speech, but a soldier at Gitmo who lets the Koran fall to the ground is committing “torture.” Darn straight, liberals hate the military and Gitmo and gays are a down trodden minority akin to poor terrorists who are locked up without a full set of due process rights.
Well, Levi, I declare your tortured attempts at logic to be true torture and I charge Obama with malfeasance and misfeasance for not locking up you and your fellow moral relativist useful idiots. Obama and the Democrats are clearly and undeniably 62,000.5% worse than George W. Bush and Dick Cheney combined. How’s that for using your brand of logic on you?
Comment by Heliotrope — March 7, 2011 @ 9:55 pm - March 7, 2011