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When People Ask Why I Left the Church I Was Raised In

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  1. When idiots can make up whole cloth ideas about Jesus that are not in the Bible, then leaving the church is a valid choice.

    Comment by Juan — October 22, 2017 @ 11:03 am - October 22, 2017

  2. Jesus didn’t change. Mankind changed the words of Jesus to fit the agenda. This has been the problem all along. The Word of God hasn’t changed at all. Man’s own agenda has changed and they’ve used God’s word to try to fit it.

    Comment by TAD — October 22, 2017 @ 11:04 am - October 22, 2017

  3. Exactly, so, TAD.

    The left seeks to change Jesus Christ into their own image for political purposes, rather than change themselves to become more Christlike.

    If that means calling the Son of Man a racist, then so be it.

    Comment by V the K — October 22, 2017 @ 11:16 am - October 22, 2017

  4. Another for whom religion gives permission for those ideas requiring the illusion of piety, replacing the rigor of faith. I’m reminded of the old stereotype that Methodists are Baptists who can read and I’m also reminded how often stereotypes are wrong.

    Comment by Ignatius — October 22, 2017 @ 11:28 am - October 22, 2017

  5. As a recovering Catholic, I can still recognize a load of crap when I see it. Liberals will do anything and I mean anything to forward their cause. Now it is interpreting the Bible to fit in with their agenda.

    Comment by fortdixmike — October 22, 2017 @ 11:37 am - October 22, 2017

  6. OK. I want to understand one point. Is she saying that we can do anything Jesus did? If Jesus did x, then we can do x as well?

    Comment by John — October 22, 2017 @ 11:45 am - October 22, 2017

  7. Perhaps this is why mainstream churches in the West (e.g Church of England, Episcopal, Presbyterian,…) are moribund while your more, ah, energetic religions (e.g. Islam) and fundamentalist Christian denominations are growing.

    If faith simply means accepting everything in the name of tolerance with no firm truths or rules, why bother with church/temple stuff? Just sleep in and, when asked, spout the usual SJW platitudes.

    Douglas Murray (an atheist), in his must-read “The Strange Death of Europe” addresses the shallow, malleable, and à la mode Christianity of today and why it’s dying.

    Comment by KCRob — October 22, 2017 @ 12:34 pm - October 22, 2017

  8. Is she saying that we can do anything Jesus did? If Jesus did x, then we can do x as well?

    I think she thinks that’s what she is trying to say, but there is nothing in the New Testament to suggest Jesus was a bigot. She’s trying to inject Social Justice Politics into religion.

    Comment by V the K — October 22, 2017 @ 12:52 pm - October 22, 2017

  9. This is a very, very strange sentiment. Jesus only ever plays the “I’m Jewish” card once in the Gospels that I can remember, it was the story of a Samaritan woman asking Jesus to bless her. Jesus made a comment to the effect of “I’m here to feed the master’s children, not his hounds,” and the Samaritan woman responding with something to the effect of “A master who loves his hounds feeds them scraps from the table.” Then Jesus basically cops to testing her and blesses her.

    Really, at what point was Jesus ever bigoted? Unless something major has happened in Methodist theology, they are Nicean Trinitarian Christians, which means that they believe that Jesus was simultaneously fully divine and fully human from the moment he was conceived. The idea that Jesus was a man who had divinity conferred on him by God was squashed pretty early on in the history of Christianity, maybe even before the Council of Nicea. So if we can agree that God is incapable of bigotry (this would require him to hate, which is anathema to his nature), this means that the only way that Jesus was ever capable of bigotry was if he was not always divine. Which, even for Methodists, is still heresy of the highest order. I think it was in anticipations of situations like this where Paul cautioned “do not permit women to teach with authority.”

    As for demoninations, I would strongly suggest finding either an East Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholic church. Unabashedly masculine (never seen an altar girl), structured, prayers are either biblical or the creation of Church Fathers and Doctors, and very traditional: no felt tapestries, no acoustic guitars.

    Comment by Sean L — October 22, 2017 @ 12:55 pm - October 22, 2017

  10. What? So now, Jesus needs to repent of his sins and ask Jesus into his heart to be his Savior?

    Comment by b0yzero — October 22, 2017 @ 2:38 pm - October 22, 2017

  11. Could she have meant either Peter or Paul? That would make a lot more sense.

    Comment by Larry — October 22, 2017 @ 3:13 pm - October 22, 2017

  12. I’m going to agree with Sean L, #09, to a degree. I’ll add; however, the evolution of Christianity has always involved pragmatism. I say this as an observer who’s bothered to pick up a book, rather than a theologian or church-going believer. You accept the cards you’re dealt after the previous hand & play. One either accepts or one finds himself in heresy.

    But, this modern day vomiting out BS with a smile as if a polite demeanor makes it acceptable is ridiculous. Oh yes, it’s been tried before. Evangelicals & aggressive cultists of every stripe do this every day as part of their strategy into fooling the unwary that they’re actually drooling out viable, mainstream dogma. Instead of offering up a distraction in the form of words & that smile.

    It’s not for this woman to say that she’s qualified because Jesus was supposedly tolerant enough not to have had standards & laws. Jesus was a source & lawgiver. As were the other prophets of his day. Later, when his existence as deity was recognized, his teachings & metaphors became law within the halls of the god-fearing.

    He would have cracked the whip at her at the same time the money-changers were being purged. Pretending he was a SJW is just not reality. Methodism is obviously losing it. Sad.

    I will disagree with Sean L as far as islam & the evangelicals are concerned. If islam is growing it’s because of population increase & the inheritance of a dogmatic political cultural infection & not because of conversion. The evangelicals are definitely not growing. They’ve been losing power & clout for decades now. Either a person is pious & worships any one of the deities or he does not. This is the way of the world.

    Comment by Hanover — October 22, 2017 @ 3:14 pm - October 22, 2017

  13. If I am reading this right, she is saying that Jesus sinned. The whole point of Him being ascribed was so He could be the ransom of our sins, being blameless Himself. By saying what she does, she negates the whole purpose of God’s purpose for salvation and makes mankind still lost in sin. Jesus sinning means we have no redemption.

    Comment by TAD — October 22, 2017 @ 3:24 pm - October 22, 2017

  14. What V the K isn’t telling you is if she looked like this, he would have stayed.

    amirite?

    Comment by CrayCrayPatriot — October 22, 2017 @ 3:37 pm - October 22, 2017

  15. I think she’s just trying to get laid by saying something outrageous. I wonder whether she wears a leather jacket and drives a motorcycle as part of the attempt.

    Comment by scr_north — October 22, 2017 @ 4:58 pm - October 22, 2017

  16. The Methodist Church is in a death spiral. Enjoy the decline, you’ve earned it.

    Comment by Kimthe — October 22, 2017 @ 6:06 pm - October 22, 2017

  17. I’m with you guys above: she doesn’t understand the first thing that the Bible says about Jesus. Well, maybe only the point that He existed, after that she goes seriously off the rails. I fear that she will lead too many people into perdition by teaching seriously false things.

    Comment by TheQuietMan — October 22, 2017 @ 6:23 pm - October 22, 2017

  18. Naturally, I thought of the word after I hit send. I think the word “blasphemy” covers the entire quote.

    Comment by TheQuietMan — October 22, 2017 @ 6:25 pm - October 22, 2017

  19. And how did I guess she was an activist Leftist lesbian without skipping to the bottom – it is always like this. Thor is a woman, spiderman is hispanic, and now Jesus really was the first SJW. Loads of BS from the Left.

    Comment by Sandra — October 22, 2017 @ 6:27 pm - October 22, 2017

  20. How do I know besides the BS spewing that she is an activist Leftist? Because she couldnt just say Church Bishop she had to stick the identifier Lesbian in to let us all know how woke she is.

    I wish we could just deport all the Leftists. Send them all somewhere together where they can all be woke and virtue signal to each other to their hearts content. Heck give them CA and just build the wall around it and let it extend into Mexico. Open border with all of Hollywood.

    Comment by Sandra — October 22, 2017 @ 6:32 pm - October 22, 2017

  21. As a convert to the Roman Catholic Church in my late 20s, I love to laugh at Protestants calling themselves “priests” and “bishops.” Their orders are invalid. And just as any gay/lesbian couple can play dress up, have nice make-believe ceremony and then a nice little party afterwards THEY’RE NOT MARRIED. I refuse participate in their banal lies.

    Comment by Bastiat_Fan — October 22, 2017 @ 8:25 pm - October 22, 2017

  22. As a Catholic myself,I can only pray for her. Mangling the words of Jesus is a popular indoor sport.(even among Catholics ). But I make a habit of praying for everyone.

    Comment by Matthew the Oilman — October 22, 2017 @ 8:47 pm - October 22, 2017

  23. Where is the Arrian Heresy when you need it?

    Comment by Cas — October 22, 2017 @ 10:09 pm - October 22, 2017

  24. Then Jesus basically cops to testing her and blesses her.

    Really, at what point was Jesus ever bigoted?

    Sean — I would argue that Jesus doesn’t cop to “testing” the Samaritan woman (why would someone with the full knowledge of God have to “test” anyone or anything?) He cops to having been (sinlessly) prejudiced against her, because he didn’t have the full knowledge of God. Prejudice is not intrinsically sinful; we can form prejudices based on naive ignorance.

    Was Jesus capable of “naive ignorance”? OF COURSE HE MUST HAVE BEEN, or else the “Agony in the Garden of Gesthemene” was just for show, and he might as well have been dribbling glycerin tears on his face with an eyedropper. But “naive” prejudice becomes sinful when we willfully refuse to challenge and examine our old notions in light of new evidence — which amounts to the “Deadly Sin” of Sloth, and can lead us into worse sins against our neighbors.

    This is the meaning of the passage: Jesus had absorbed the anti-Samaritan prejudices of the Jewish community he grew up in, but as a result of this encounter with an actual Samaritan who had true faith, Jesus suddenly realized that the conventional Jewish wisdom was mistaken.

    To put it another way, the Samaritan woman was the instrument by which God the Father gave God the Son a more complete revelation about the ultimate nature of his earthly mission — he was to spread the word to the Gentiles as well, and not just to the children of Israel.

    That said, I totally disagree with the lesbian pastor’s phrasing and the lesson that she draws. She should’ve said: “If Jesus could be blamelessly prejudiced, how much more should we forgive ordinary people who are prejudiced against us?” (In other words, always give benefit of the doubt that prejudice is rooted in ignorant naivete, and not in malice.)

    Comment by Throbert McGee — October 22, 2017 @ 10:44 pm - October 22, 2017

  25. “…I love to laugh at Protestants calling themselves “priests” and “bishops.” Their orders are invalid.”

    Anglicans are invalid? It appears Methodists don’t have a monopoly on ignorance.

    Comment by Ignatius — October 22, 2017 @ 10:46 pm - October 22, 2017

  26. #21) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone – especially if living in a glass house.

    It’s one thing to denounce the bishop’s words, but there’s no reason to mock fellow Christians whose words and hearts you know not, just because they don’t affiliate with the same denomination as you. You’re not exactly extending grace here, which is what you’re called to do if you believe your brother is in error.

    Comment by civil truth — October 23, 2017 @ 2:59 am - October 23, 2017

  27. Bah, you’re either are or you’re aren’t.

    Comment by Sennacherib — October 23, 2017 @ 5:35 am - October 23, 2017

  28. @ Bastiat_Fan: The validity of Protestant orders as defined by the Catholic Church is a messy and complicated business. It all depends on whether the bishop who ordained a priest was 1) a valid bishop who 2) was ordained by a valid bishop and so on and so forth, and 3) the person in question is considered qualified to be a priest in the first place.

    There are Protestant priests who have converted to Catholicism and stayed priests, even married ones. But it’s a complicated and lengthy affair.

    Comment by Sean L — October 23, 2017 @ 8:02 am - October 23, 2017

  29. On thinking about it a little more, here’s a different interpretation from the one I offered to Sean: Jesus knew in advance that the Samaritan woman had true faith, and he made the comment about giving the children’s food to dogs NOT as a test of the woman herself, but as an instructive rebuke and revelation to his anti-Samaritan disciples. (They were all very keen to shoo her away.)

    In Matthew 8:5-10, Jesus had previously encountered a centurion (presumably non-Jewish) whose servant was ill, and Jesus “marveled” at the centurion’s piety and humility, saying to his followers: “I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.” Which is to say that Jesus was already aware that Gentiles were part of his mission.

    Going by THIS reading, what the Methodist woman should have said is “If Jesus’s closest associates who hung around with him in person needed to be challenged about their prejudices, how much more do we?”

    Either way, it’s very different from implying that Jesus started out as a fallen human and gradually became closer to God!

    Comment by Throbert McGee — October 23, 2017 @ 9:09 am - October 23, 2017

  30. P.S. The story about the Samaritan woman “eating the crumbs from the children’s table” occurs in Matt. 15:22-28, and it’s sandwiched (ho-ho!) between two “Feeding of the Multitudes” miracles (Matt. 14: 15-21 and 15:32-38). In the first miracle, there are twelve baskets of leftover bread and fish, and in the second, there are seven. I would suggest that 12 represents the tribes of Israel, while 7 represents creation as a whole — amplifying the point that Jesus’s mission has now been expanded.

    A parallel account — with 12 baskets of leftovers from the first Loaves & Fishes miracle, then the meeting with the Samaritan woman, then 7 baskets of leftovers — can be found in Mark, chapters 6 through 8. The main difference I can see is that in Mark’s telling, the disciples do not complain to Jesus about the pesky woman who wants an audience with him; she just walks in and kneels at his feet.

    Comment by Throbert McGee — October 23, 2017 @ 9:12 am - October 23, 2017

  31. Throbert McGee, #’s 29-30, you are on the right track with the Samaritan woman story now…and the two feedings you refer to are two differing occasions

    Comment by TAD — October 23, 2017 @ 9:48 am - October 23, 2017

  32. I love to laugh at Protestants calling themselves “priests” and “bishops.” Their orders are invalid.

    I have far less of an issue with traditional Protestants, such as Anglicans & Lutherans (and to a lesser degree, Methodists & Congregationalists/UCCers) using honorifics such as ‘priest’ and ‘bishop’, since, as Sean L correctly stated, some of their orders may actually be valid. What I laugh at is the tinhorn clergyfolk who refer to themselves as “bishop” so-and-so of a church with a name like “Universal Temple Of Love & Triumph”. It’s unfortunate that most of them seem to be part of the Black Church movement, though there are others who also perpetuate the charade.

    I think that at the very least, in order to be any true semblance of a priest or bishop, the conferring needs to come from someone else, not yourself.

    Comment by RSG — October 23, 2017 @ 1:28 pm - October 23, 2017

  33. #9:
    I think it was in anticipations of situations like this where Paul cautioned “do not permit women to teach with authority.”

    As for denominations, I would strongly suggest finding either an East Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholic church. Unabashedly masculine (never seen an altar girl), structured, prayers are either biblical or the creation of Church Fathers and Doctors, and very traditional: no felt tapestries, no acoustic guitars.

    Making a mental note never to introduce Sean to my Catholic mother — it would get very tense. (I’m sure she would cheerfully agree to disagree on the question of whether the RCC should stop pretending that one needs a magical Y chromosome in order to consecrate the Eucharist. But the slurs against felt tapestries and acoustic guitars would, I fear, cut her very deeply, beyond forgiveness.)

    Comment by Throbert McGee — October 23, 2017 @ 2:30 pm - October 23, 2017

  34. But the slurs against felt tapestries and acoustic guitars would, I fear, cut her very deeply, beyond forgiveness.

    And my Catholic mother would pretty much care to do away with a lot of the 70s liturgical implementations, including anything made with felt and the conventionesque banner placements and sanctuary decorations and any instrument used in a gee-tar Mass.

    However, what would turn her off the Orthodox expressions of The Church is the clerical appearance norms. In her mind, every priest or bishop should look like Archbishop Sheen or Cardinals Dolan & Wuerl and not like some homeless guy cleaned up for public appearances.

    Comment by RSG — October 23, 2017 @ 5:41 pm - October 23, 2017

  35. Strange that members of a church that protected pedophiles for decades would laugh at Protestants. I guess that’s what passes for Christianity these days.

    Comment by Ignatius — October 24, 2017 @ 3:56 pm - October 24, 2017

  36. @ RSG: Facial hair aesthetics aside, one can hardly fault the Orthodox and East Catholics for their fashion sense. Why wear a boring old mitre when you can wear a freaking crown?

    Comment by Sean L — October 24, 2017 @ 6:03 pm - October 24, 2017

  37. “Strange that members of a church that protected pedophiles for decades would laugh at Protestants. I guess that’s what passes for Christianity these days.”

    Clergy sex abuse is actually quite rampant among evangelicals and fundamentalists and is as equally bad as, if not worse, than the Catholic Church’s pedophile scandal. The only reason the Catholics get more attention is because of the episcopal system in their church. This isn’t to downplay Catholic victims but rather to show that Catholics aren’t the only guilty ones.

    Source:

    https://newrepublic.com/article/142999/silence-lambs-protestants-concealing-catholic-size-sexual-abuse-scandal

    Comment by Paul — October 24, 2017 @ 9:19 pm - October 24, 2017

  38. Clergy sex abuse is actually quite rampant among evangelicals and fundamentalists and is as equally bad as, if not worse, than the Catholic Church’s pedophile scandal.

    Whether true or not (and I doubt it), you have apparently missed my point entirely: ridicule of another Christian faith. We could spend many hours pointing out the sins of either, I’m sure. Is that what Christ would do?

    Comment by Ignatius — October 24, 2017 @ 10:16 pm - October 24, 2017

  39. The meme is quite different from this:

    https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/10/the-catholic-magazine-interview-with-milo-they-refuse-to-print/

    Comment by Chaswjd — October 25, 2017 @ 7:14 am - October 25, 2017

  40. Why wear a boring old mitre when you can wear a freaking crown?

    Can’t argue with that! I have always been impressed with the headwear of the Orthodox bishopric (as well as some of the titles—who wouldn’t want to be Patriarch of Egypt or Greece?). In fact, when some of the leaders of the Orthodox churches are pictured with the Bishop of Rome, it’s about the only time that someone in striking plain white looks underdressed.

    Comment by RSG — October 25, 2017 @ 12:04 pm - October 25, 2017

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