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  1. If you are a white liberal using the freedom of speech granted to you by the United States Constitution to proclaim that you are anti-Thanksgiving then you have just tangled yourself in a web of contradiction.

    Comment by Alan — November 21, 2012 @ 8:21 pm - November 21, 2012

  2. It’s called “the truth.”

    I mean, when they’re old enough to understand that a blind, mouth-breathing “daddy can do no wrong” devotion to ‘Murka is painfully childish and that real grown-ups love America with a full understanding of where we’ve been right and also where we’ve been wrong.

    Comment by Evan — November 21, 2012 @ 8:24 pm - November 21, 2012

  3. The hatred of America, it’s traditions and institutions by the left knows no bounds.

    Comment by Richard Bell — November 21, 2012 @ 9:35 pm - November 21, 2012

  4. Amen, Richard.

    Liberals are the enemy of the American Republic. There can be no doubt.

    Comment by Bruce (GayPatriot) — November 21, 2012 @ 10:53 pm - November 21, 2012

  5. And yet, this country has people literally climbing over our borders to get in. As bad as liberals think the United States is, perhaps if they lived in another country for awhile, the US might start to look pretty good to them. But, this hatred of homeland is what is being taught in our schools and colleges now.

    I’d like to take a minute from fixing my turkey and pies to wish everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving. I really enjoy the posts on this site. Good exchange of information and ideas.

    P.S. I have been seriously considering putting my liberal, vegan, atheist relatives at the children’s table this year, but I just can’t do that to the kiddies.

    Comment by NOT a liberal Mom — November 21, 2012 @ 11:12 pm - November 21, 2012

  6. Speaking of Thanksgiving, Obama never misses an opportunity to be a dick.

    Comment by V the K — November 21, 2012 @ 11:49 pm - November 21, 2012

  7. Sure, I love America… same as I love any other racist, oppressive murder-state founded in slavery and genocide that’s really unexceptional and should try to be no different than European countries… who are better than America in every way!!!!!!

    Also, And don’t call me unpatriotic!

    Comment by Average Democrat — November 21, 2012 @ 11:52 pm - November 21, 2012

  8. V the K and others – have you ever noticed how Obama every time makes the “Sign of the Cross” when pardoning the turkeys?

    Obama is a total ass when doing this; I honestly think that Obama and other liberals don’t realize how that can be offensive to folks who are religious. What does Obama think he is – the pope?

    Comment by Charles — November 22, 2012 @ 12:51 am - November 22, 2012

  9. Dear Average Democrat – I don’t know whether you’re for real or a troll. Either way, you’re a grossly unpleasant human being. If you’re American, go atone for your country’s past. Move to Zimbabwe. And don’t bother returning.

    Comment by perturbed — November 22, 2012 @ 3:47 am - November 22, 2012

  10. Can any of the commenters here explain to me why you’re unable to both

    A. maintain your love of country

    and

    B. still acknowledge the truth of where we’ve gone wrong?

    This is something that I, as a liberal, have never been able to understand about many conservatives. Anyone with a hint of Native blood, who has actually paid attention to it, knows the bloodstains that mar this nation’s founding. It’s a painful history, and at the same time, it takes nothing away from the great nation we’ve become. I simply don’t understand why an acknowledgement of those facets of the story we should hate AND THEN LEARN FROM is tantamount in people’s minds to hating our country or being unpatriotic. No. It’s simply understanding where we’ve come from. And Republicans are supposed to be the party of “personal responsibility?”

    Well, I have Native blood in me (my high cheekbones were actually the impetus to our family researching our lineage…Dad, being very Mediterranean, has the olive skin, but mine is a bit different, and this is all from a French/German mother who might as well be Scandinavian, considering her features), but I also have Dutch and English and, again, French/German…I have the whole diaspora of the “American” founding story. Some of my ancestors came hundreds of years ago, some came in the late 1800′s. So there is a dichotomy, and yeah, a lot of those who ‘discovered’ America, and developed it long after, committed absolute genocide against the Native peoples.

    Any American who can’t accept that is a pithy child. Grow up. Why must everything be sugarcoated to protect the fragile feelings of wingnuts?

    Comment by Evan — November 22, 2012 @ 4:32 am - November 22, 2012

  11. Incredible. They all say the same thing..almost verbatim.. Can we say indoctrinated?

    Comment by Kate — November 22, 2012 @ 4:35 am - November 22, 2012

  12. Evan, this is where you probably don’t understand the mind-set of [most] conservatives. We understand the mixed history and Heritage, we don’t condone the actions, we are cognizant of the past, but we aren’t going to take on the mantle of guilt either. That accomplishes nothing, and prohibits moving forward — for everyone. It’s unhealthy behavior for all parties.

    In a more individual basis, inflicting that guilt on someone would probably be termed abuse.

    Comment by Kate — November 22, 2012 @ 4:54 am - November 22, 2012

  13. Kate, I will grant you something at the outset: your response to me was more intelligent and well thought-out than the majority of what I have seen from commenters here.

    Where I disagree with you is on the idea of the ‘mantle of guilt.’ I think there’s a difference between feeling “guilty” about something and understanding what has come before and living with a genuine, full understanding of history.

    I agree with you that neither of us should feel personally “guilty” about how things are. I’ve heard that from conservative friends and family — i.e. why are you blaming US?! WE didn’t bring your families over here on boats/WE didn’t create the Trail of Tears — I get that! Of course WE didn’t. I grew up quite fortunate. Parents worked hard, their parents worked hard, and so on. But at the same time, I feel that there is a certain responsibility that comes when we look both outside ourselves and perhaps inward as well, when we say — well, I don’t know you, so I will not put words in your mouth, so I’m speaking for me here — “Wow. There are ridiculous opportunities that I have had that millions of people will never have, and it has NOTHING to do with their merit or their intelligence or anything else. I happen to have grown up as a white man from an upper middle class Protestant family. Two roads diverged in a wood, and I…I happen to have born on the right side of the prettier road, and that has made all the difference.” The moment when you realize that all the rhetoric about “personal responsibility” is bullshit and that the idea of the US as a meritocracy is a myth? It’s illuminating.

    When those Americans who have traditionally held power — and i’m including my own demographic in here — actually come to terms with the trail of blood that the collective “we” have left while getting to where we are…when we actually admit it…then maybe we can really start talking about things like equal opportunity. We’re not there yet. No one today should feel “guilty” about slavery, about Native American genocide, or a number of other things. But there is true power in taking on and being cognizant of the responsibility of owning our heritage (sidebar: Southerners always love to bitch and moan about their heritage, but never want to take responsibility for their heritage. Interesting), learning from it, both good and bad, and moving forward in a way that truly benefits our country.

    Comment by Evan — November 22, 2012 @ 5:45 am - November 22, 2012

  14. Wow Evan, I bet you are fun to have around the family on Thanksgiving Day. I may have just found the first person I would not invite to a Thanksgiving meal. I’m sure my southern family is also too dumb to undertsand what you mean by “taking responsibility for their heritage.” You know, we still have muskets and coonskin caps hagging on our walls. Oh, damn, I didn’t want the neighbors to know that…..they’re from the north and very smart. Oh well, I guess it’s turkey for me and hummus for you!

    Comment by Scott Lassiter — November 22, 2012 @ 8:29 am - November 22, 2012

  15. As an admendment to my last comment…..I would invite Evan to Thanksgiving if he had no place to go. And perhaps he would experience a higher-order epiphany in the commonness of everyday lives.

    Comment by Scott Lassiter — November 22, 2012 @ 9:23 am - November 22, 2012

  16. Suppose there were a man who was constantly saying, “This is my wife… she’s fat and stupid. I keep telling her she should be more like one of those hot European women, but she’s too stupid to listen. And when she was younger, she did all kinds of stupid sh-t. I rag on her about it all the time, because I never want her to stop feeling bad for the stupid sh-t she did in her youth.”

    Evan’s response: “Now, there’s a man who truly loves his wife.”

    Comment by V the K — November 22, 2012 @ 9:31 am - November 22, 2012

  17. Where we went wrong?

    We left survivors.

    Ask the Moundbuilders about genoci- oh wait, there are none. Well I’m sure the Hopewell can- oh wait, there are none. Well I’m sure you can ask all those tribes who spontaneously appeared after their predecessors disappeared about it, after all, the Europeans left some of them around.

    Western Civilization, putting a stop to Genocide since 1492.

    Comment by The_Livewire — November 22, 2012 @ 9:32 am - November 22, 2012

  18. Evan did you notice that the question was “what should we tell kindergarteners about Thanksgiving?”

    Do you really think kindergarten is the age when genocide should be discussed?

    At that stage just teaching kids some of the basics is most appropriate.

    Also, at the very least it should be balanced. There was a feast of Thanksgiving and not every colonist was out to kill the natives.

    Not to mention natives were pretty good at killing each other-read anything about Incas, Mayans etc?

    Comment by Just Me — November 22, 2012 @ 10:56 am - November 22, 2012

  19. America needs to get over the idea that it’s sprecial… because it’s SO not!

    Comment by Average Democrat — November 22, 2012 @ 11:08 am - November 22, 2012

  20. I doubt there are many countries that don’t have some sort of dark past. I don’t know that much about how early Americans treated Native Americans, but I do know that Canada’s abhorrent treatment of them lasted until well into the second half of the 20th century, possibly into the 90′s.

    This history shouldn’t be hidden, and it should be acknowledged and apologized for by the government (those people whose ancestors or even themselves were victims of government policies likely feel wronged and deserve contrition, in my opinion). After that, society can move on. There is no point in dwelling or feeling guilty on the past as long as you don’t repeat it and you treat everyone equitably in the present. The founding principles of the United States are what made it exceptional, even if they weren’t practiced fully. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be now.

    Comment by Rattlesnake — November 22, 2012 @ 11:58 am - November 22, 2012

  21. Are these libs teaching the kindergartners about the slavery in China, the racism in Cuba and India, the genocide, homophobia, and second class female citizens in Arab countries, and the classism in Britain to show how horrible those countries are and how much they should hate those countries?

    Comment by Paul — November 22, 2012 @ 2:10 pm - November 22, 2012

  22. “Wow. There are ridiculous opportunities that I have had that millions of people will never have, and it has NOTHING to do with their merit or their intelligence or anything else. I happen to have grown up as a white man from an upper middle class Protestant family. Two roads diverged in a wood, and I…I happen to have born on the right side of the prettier road, and that has made all the difference.” The moment when you realize that all the rhetoric about “personal responsibility” is bullshit and that the idea of the US as a meritocracy is a myth? It’s illuminating.

    Yes, “equality of opportunity” is a myth, because some people are born with more opportunities than others. But the point is that everyone (ideally) has the opportunity to become as successful as they can regardless of whatever situation they are born into. It might not be “fair” that some people have more opportunities at birth than others, but that doesn’t matter in the least as long as everyone has opportunities to be successful. Unfortunately, things aren’t idea (anywhere) and this “opportunity” is impeded by things such as government debt, progressive taxation, public schools, and welfare and other “social programs.”

    Comment by Rattlesnake — November 22, 2012 @ 2:59 pm - November 22, 2012

  23. Dear perturbed @ #9,

    Average Democrat is neither a troll nor a grossly disturbed human being. Average Democrat is taking the typical liberal feel-good-while-demonizing-those-they-hate bullcrap and shoveling it forcefully back down their elitist, poilitally-correct throats.

    Lighten up a bit. Average Democrat is doing a well-above-average job of Jonathan Swift level irony.

    Comment by heliotrope — November 22, 2012 @ 6:45 pm - November 22, 2012

  24. Evan @ #10 (with preposterous superiority):

    This is something that I, as a liberal, have never been able to understand about many conservatives …… Anyone with a hint of Native blood, who has actually paid attention to it, knows the bloodstains that mar this nation’s founding……

    Such hubris.

    A land bridge permitted nomadic people to wander onto the continents of the “new world” where they huddled together as clans and tribes and murdered each other for centuries. They worked out their treaties and then broke them with regularity. They were vastly primitive and unable, for the most part, to record their history, culture or driving belief systems.

    Anything more known about these people is the work of postulation, prognostication and conjecture on the part of largely liberal soothsayers of prehistoric culture.

    Then the evil, corrupt, misguided, disease-ridden, immoral, greedy white men arrived from Europe and opened the gates of Hell on them. Dear me.

    It was the absolute responsibility of those white men to take one look and run away from Eden and the inviolate and wonderful primitive offspring of malcontent nomads and leave the “new world” in pristine glory.

    Yep. By God, Evan would have slit his own throat before taking so much as one little seashell necklace from these innocent, perfect children of God. But, what if Evan was horny and shared some of his STD’s and small pox with a naive native boy or girl? Kill him, I say. Cut Evan’s heart out and feed it to the flames of appeasement which dedicated to the gods of the wind and god of the mosquito swarm and the god which brings maidens and corn and 24 hour erections which make the women bow down and wiggle their breasts.

    Thanks for the melodrama, Evan. I take your point. Imbecile.

    Comment by heliotrope — November 22, 2012 @ 7:06 pm - November 22, 2012

  25. A few years ago, I sat in on a discussion in New Zealand about Maori rights and the obligations of Western “occupiers” of New Zealand.

    One old New Zealand redneck (Kiwi) stood up and said that the Maori’s had “taken the blankets and hatchets at the Treaty of Waitangi fair and square” and they should stop all their pissing and moaning. Of course, this was anathema, because the Maori had gone their way after the treaty and steadily declined until the short end of the stick was beyond useless.

    So they went into overdrive about all the things they worshipped that were beyond their capacity to utilize or overcome. They ate everything they could catch that tastes good. (Which included each other.) They pulled stuff out of the water and off of trees and out of the earth to eat. They discovered the “beauty” of obesity and celebrated it. (Perhaps a fat Maori tastes better than a skinny one.) And, by God, they pulled the scarce little yellow feathers off of the scarce humming birds they killed to make a ginormous cape for their dump-truck sized chief to wear to show everyone just how useless a hulk he really was. But, by God, that was just cultural, privative pride and worthy of respect and worship, even thought the stinking humming birds went extinct in the process.

    Mother of hypocrisy! These sons of Evan are a sorry lot of weepers and moaners who have no sense of proportion. Why don’t they ever go apoplectic rooting for T-Rex?

    Comment by heliotrope — November 22, 2012 @ 8:10 pm - November 22, 2012

  26. Better yet, if Evan and his ilk feel guilty about white privilege and the theft of lands from native peoples, why don’t he and his ilk move off this occupied land and back to the lands of their ancestors?

    Comment by V the K — November 22, 2012 @ 8:23 pm - November 22, 2012

  27. Better yet, if Evan and his ilk feel guilty about white privilege and the theft of lands from native peoples, why don’t he and his ilk move off this occupied land and back to the lands of their ancestors?

    Comment by V the K — November 22, 2012 @ 8:23 pm – November 22, 2012

    Because, V the K, the point of Evan’s whining is to mooch.

    What one has to realize is that everything an Obama-supporting leftist like Evan does revolves around their belief that, because they exist, the world owes them both respect and unlimited resources.

    Unfortunately, private industry does not pay the lazy, and Christianity and other conventional forms of morality do not respect the irresponsible and stupid. Their ignorance and indolence make it impossible for them to take advantage of opportunities and create wealth themselves, and the presence of other moral systems shames their amorality so well.

    So they use the aegis of government to steal from others, and rationalize it with elaborate stories and ruses meant to exploit the emotions of others, like Evan’s weeping over the Indians and insisting that you are a murdering racist unless you submit to the overarching rule of government.

    The ruse fails when you realize three things:

    1) Evan and his fellow Obama Party bigots do not believe they should have to follow the rules of “equality” they create for others – and don’t.

    2) Evan and his fellow Obama Party bigots use the money they shriek and demand and guilt people into giving for “the poor” to buy, among other things, private liquor-stocked airliners for insider-trading multimillionaires.

    3) Evan and his fellow Obama Party bigots scream and demand that others take responsibility for smallpox epidemics that killed hundreds of thousands four hundred years ago, but refuse to take any responsibility for their OWN behavior in spreading epidemics that continue to sicken and kill hundreds of thousands of people now.

    If a religious organization demanded money for “the poor” while a) refusing to contribute itself and b) blowing it in the same way that Evan’s beloved Obama Party government does, Evan and his fellow antireligious bigots would be having brain aneurysms. The fact that they openly endorse and support their Obama and their Obama Party doing it shows that their stories and their so-called “concern” are nothing more than pure, malicious fiction.

    In short, they are lying, destructive, and manipulative children who depend on leeching and mooching off others and — worst of all — exploit the better emotions and goodwill of those people to do it.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty — November 22, 2012 @ 10:22 pm - November 22, 2012

  28. Could we send some of these misinformed people to hellholes like Haiti, Bangladesh, Venezuela, almost any country in Africa, or perhaps the Middle East? This would give them the dose of reality that might change their view of America.

    Comment by davinci — November 23, 2012 @ 2:20 pm - November 23, 2012

  29. Humm…I notice that Evan did not allude to his native heritage in his post. He implied that he had “native blood” but, did not mention the nation or tribe he was descended from…Being Native, I find it incredibly interesting that Evan could not, and did not mention the most significant part of his post…

    Comment by Killiteten - Native Intelligence — November 23, 2012 @ 11:10 pm - November 23, 2012

  30. And, by the way, my mother comes out of the northeast corner of Montana and is Assiniboine Sioux (Nakota) and my father is from Southern California (Mountain Cahuilla). His people avoided the Spanish Mission Quests that messed with the California Natives…humm…

    Comment by Killiteten - Native Intelligence — November 23, 2012 @ 11:13 pm - November 23, 2012

  31. Killiteten makes a terrific point. Being proud of your heritage is one thing altogether. Trying to cop some sort of special blood-drive empathy points with your left cheekbone is a charade and getting drunk off the sniff of somebody else’s cork.

    Good old Bill Clinton walked into a room fat and white, sold his “I feel your pain” malarky and walked out of the room fat and white.

    Thanks for the empathy, but no thanks. Evan reads something into the pain and suffering of the people he pities and has personally chosen to champion to get a gold star on his wee wee chart.

    It is demeaning to those he pities and annoying to those outside of his echo chamber who clearly see the game for points he is playing.

    See you down at the homeless shelter, Evan. I just know you don’t have enough hours in your day for your many silent acts of kindness.

    Comment by heliotrope — November 24, 2012 @ 8:52 am - November 24, 2012

  32. Liberal hipsters only get away with this crap because nobody pushes back. “If you hate the way these lands were stolen from the native inhabitants, why don’t you move back to the lands of your European ancestors?”

    I know most lib hipsters would reply, “Oh, I’d love to move to Europe if I could.” Kinda shows how they really feel about the USA.

    Comment by V the K — November 24, 2012 @ 12:48 pm - November 24, 2012

  33. Evan must have run off to Elizabeth Warren to have his ‘high cheekbones’ checked.

    Comment by The_Livewire — November 26, 2012 @ 8:58 am - November 26, 2012

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